First Rig? Aerodyne Pilot?

[Jkralovec 0]

First post!

I'm looking to buy my first canopy and I currently rent a Sabre 150.

I'm considering the Aerodyne Pilot because I am just learning to swoop and from what I hear, it is forgiving.

I'm also considering Aerodyne because of the zpX fabric.

I have 36 jumps, and with a 150, I am at 1.25WL.

I don't plan on buying a rig until 100 jumps and I would like to be flying a 135 by the time I buy my first rig and would have a WL of 1.125.

What are your thoughts?

[AggieDave 6]

Back down your wingloading and work on the fundamentals. With out a solid base of skills, your progression to a hot-shit swooper will be much harder (and possibly more painful). Do you have a local canopy mentor? If not, find a good canopy pilot that is experienced and work with him/her.

Then demo canopies. Try the pilot, but also look at the Sabre2 and the Storm.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Jkralovec 0]

I appreciate the words of wisdom. Yes, swooping will come with time and I am by no means rushing into it but it is a direction I want to head in.

I do not have a canopy mentor to speak of but I'm sure I can find one at CK.

Thanks!

[AggieDave 6]

At Cross Keys? I'm more then sure that you will find a good canopy mentor.

I'm serious about the wingloading, 1.25 is super aggressive for under 200 jumps. That means that while you're learning fundamental techniques, you're going faster and have a much smaller window of error. If you want to become a good swooper, start it slow and learn the fundamentals. Swooping isn't just yoinking on a riser and going fast. Its all based on flying a consistent pattern and having accuracy, then it builds from there.

Good luck and demo some canopies!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,426]

>What are your thoughts?

1) If you are doing well under a 150, plan on that being your first canopy. You can always downsize later; most containers can easily go up or down a size.

2) The Pilot and the Safire2 are both good canopies for people at your level. Sabre2 is another option if you like PD. Going to a Pilot 150 will give you a significant bump in performance over your Sabre 150 and keep you happy for a while.

[Jkralovec 0]

See, the problem is I'm 120 pounds soaking wet and when I fly a 170 I hang in the air for days and landings are routine to say the least. 150 is really comfortable for now.

Do the Wing Loading protocol still apply as accurately to lighter jumpers?

[billvon 2,426]

>See, the problem is I'm 120 pounds soaking wet and when I fly a 170
>I hang in the air for days and landings are routine to say the least.

I think you may have done your math backwards. If you are 120 pounds your exit weight will be around 150. That's a 1:1 loading for a Pilot 150 and a 1.1:1 loading for the 135. (Wing loading goes _up_ with your weight, not down.)

Going by Germain's chart, if you have 200 jumps by the time you get your canopy, the smallest you should be jumping is a 150.

[Jkralovec 0]

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>What are your thoughts?

1) If you are doing well under a 150, plan on that being your first canopy. You can always downsize later; most containers can easily go up or down a size.

2) The Pilot and the Safire2 are both good canopies for people at your level. Sabre2 is another option if you like PD. Going to a Pilot 150 will give you a significant bump in performance over your Sabre 150 and keep you happy for a while.

So a Pilot 150 will fly faster and be more agile than a S2 yet still be forgiving. Is that what you're saying?

[Jkralovec 0]

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>See, the problem is I'm 120 pounds soaking wet and when I fly a 170
>I hang in the air for days and landings are routine to say the least.

I think you may have done your math backwards. If you are 120 pounds your exit weight will be around 150. That's a 1:1 loading for a Pilot 150 and a 1.1:1 loading for the 135. (Wing loading goes _up_ with your weight, not down.)

Going by Germain's chart, if you have 200 jumps by the time you get your canopy, the smallest you should be jumping is a 150.

Oh, crap! So I'm jumping a pretty small canopy for my size and experience level ? I didn't figure with exit weight, I figured with MY weight.

What is Germain's chart?

[Milo 0]

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

[billvon 2,426]

>So I'm jumping a pretty small canopy for my size and experience level ?

A bit. A 170 is a good minimum size at 40 jumps at your weight.

>What is Germain's chart?

A chart on canopy loading done by Brian Germain, a very well known canopy designer and canopy flight instructor.

www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

>So a Pilot 150 will fly faster and be more agile than a S2 yet still
>be forgiving. Is that what you're saying?

A Pilot 150 will be more fun to fly than a Sabre 1 150. It will be a bit more aggressive but not radically so. The flare will be a bit better. The openings will be a lot better.

[NovaTTT 1]

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with a 150, I am at 1.25WL.

a 135 by the time I buy my first rig and would have a WL of 1.125.

What are your thoughts?

Your canopy gets smaller and your WL goes down. That must be what they call fuzzy math.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[Jkralovec 0]

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with a 150, I am at 1.25WL.

a 135 by the time I buy my first rig and would have a WL of 1.125.

What are your thoughts?

Your canopy gets smaller and your WL goes down. That must be what they call fuzzy math.

I did it wrong, way wrong :(

[millertime24 8]

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So a Pilot 150 will fly faster and be more agile than a S2 yet still be forgiving. Is that what you're saying?

I think you're confusing the sabre with the sabre2. They are totally different canopies with totally different flight characteristics. A sabre2 is similar to the pilot, safire2, fusion etc. All very fine canopies with a little different flight characteristics. Thats why folks say DEMO DEMO DEMO because doing that you'll likely find a canopy that you just absolutely fall in love with. For me it was (and still is) the sabre2.

Muff #5048

[sparkie 0]

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>What are your thoughts?

1) If you are doing well under a 150, plan on that being your first canopy. You can always downsize later; most containers can easily go up or down a size.

2) The Pilot and the Safire2 are both good canopies for people at your level. Sabre2 is another option if you like PD. Going to a Pilot 150 will give you a significant bump in performance over your Sabre 150 and keep you happy for a while.

So a Pilot 150 will fly faster and be more agile than a S2 yet still be forgiving. Is that what you're saying?

A pilot is lighter on the toggles and goes into a turn a little faster, s2 needs a bit more input. The s2 is more versatile imo.

Pilot is not a good canopy for learning to swoop. Not that you should be doing that at this time or in the near future, until you get more jumps.

in my experience swooping becomes relevant around 1,3 wl and more, before thet you're just lifting yourself into the riser ;)

If you plan to go into swooping later on i would suggest the sabre 2 - katana - velo path if you are into PD canopies. Katana not before 500 jumps btw

the pilot has such a short recovery that you'd have to initiate the hookturn ridiculesly low.

ps imo swooping attempts come into play not before a few hunderd jumps and currency

any idiot can pull on a front riser, but getting what comes next right takes experience

2ct's

[erdnarob 1]

I don't know the Pilot but a good choice would be the Sabre 2 which is slightly semi elliptical like the Safire 2. And for a rig, if you buy it new why not choose the Vector III with hip rings, riser covers magnets and Skyhook. You will have the most advanced rig right now on the market.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[verticalflier 0]

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I don't know the Pilot but a good choice would be the Sabre 2 which is slightly semi elliptical like the Safire 2. And for a rig, if you buy it new why not choose the Vector III with hip rings, riser covers magnets and Skyhook. You will have the most advanced rig right now on the market.

I am confused. Are you trying to answer his questions about choosing a Pilot for a first canopy or trying to sell him a piece of a gear that you like? What if he buys it and then finds out that he would rather jump a Racer?
The best advice all of us can give this new jumper is to demo different chutes and rigs and choose for himself what suits him the most. Most manufacturers have demo programs and he can easily try different rigs.
By the way Aerodyne demo tour will be at Cross Keys during this years Rainbow Boogie in August. J we will have free demo rigs and whole bunch of Pilots to demo including our latest Pilot ZPX canopies so come out and you can take one for a flight.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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First post!

I'm looking to buy my first canopy and I currently rent a Sabre 150.

I'm considering the Aerodyne Pilot because I am just learning to swoop and from what I hear, it is forgiving.

I'm also considering Aerodyne because of the zpX fabric.

I have 36 jumps, and with a 150, I am at 1.25WL.

A 190 would be more appropriate unless you're getting the math wrong (it's your weight with gear divided by canopy size. 160 pounds + 15 of gear / 245 square feet = .71. 160 pounds + 20 of gear / 105 square feet = 1.71.

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I don't plan on buying a rig until 100 jumps and I would like to be flying a 135 by the time I buy my first rig and would have a WL of 1.125.
What are your thoughts?

A 135 is a small canopy even if you only weigh 125 pounds. A 150 would be the prudent choice in that case assuming you can do all of Brian Germain and Bill von Novak's drills. Bigger would be better if you can't.

[kmills0705 0]

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First post!

I'm looking to buy my first canopy and I currently rent a Sabre 150.

I'm considering the Aerodyne Pilot because I am just learning to swoop and from what I hear, it is forgiving.

I'm also considering Aerodyne because of the zpX fabric.

I have 36 jumps, and with a 150, I am at 1.25WL.

I don't plan on buying a rig until 100 jumps and I would like to be flying a 135 by the time I buy my first rig and would have a WL of 1.125.

What are your thoughts?

I think your being aggressive flying a 150 with only 38 jumps. I am actually surprised that CK put you under that.

At 38 jumps the thought of swooping shouldn't even be in your head!

As for a canopy is concerned it is very much a matter of personal choice. When I bought my new canopy I demo'd a Sabre 2, Pilot, Spectre and had a Triathlon. All had positives and negatives. In the end I chose the Pilot. It is a great canopy and I am really happy with it. But I am also coming up to 500 jumps and swooping just doesn't appeal to me.

Kim Mills
USPA D21696
Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I think your being aggressive flying a 150 with only 38 jumps. I am actually surprised that CK put you under that.

For you may be. Its quite interesting to have a strict oppinion about something even you don't know all important details like elevation or density altitude....

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At 38 jumps the thought of swooping shouldn't even be in your head!

There is so many things you can learn about swooping even with 38 jumps.

[danielcroft 2]

Seriously? You're advocating (or at least implying) that a 1.25 loading at 38 jumps is ok? I've never seen this person fly & they may be totally awesome but most people that have seen me fly say that I'm a very good pilot and I'm still being careful about downsizing to a 150 and a 1.23 loading at the jump numbers I have right now. My S&TA has said I'd probably be ok but I'm still taking my time.

I'm not saying this person isn't ready, just surprised that a loading that high would be considered ok for someone with so few jumps, not to mention the shorter lines factor on a 150 sized canopy.

I'm honestly not trying to be combative, just curious about the extenuating circumstances to feeling that this loading, which would almost universally be considered excessive *on face value*, would be ok.

[JohanW 0]

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I think your being aggressive flying a 150 with only 38 jumps. I am actually surprised that CK put you under that.

For you may be. It's quite interesting to have a strict opinion about something even you don't know all important details like elevation or density altitude....

OP said he has a 1.25 WL under a 150. At density altitudes normal for XK (they can be looked up, you know), at 38 jumps, I'd agree with her that's aggressive. *Very* aggressive. Maybe Finland has different rules, but that does not make it less aggressive.

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At 38 jumps the thought of swooping shouldn't even be in your head!

There is so many things you can learn about swooping even with 38 jumps.

Yes, like don't even think about it and work on your landing pattern, accuracy and flare first.

Edit: OP had his W/L wrong. It'd be 1/1.25 ~0.8. Then again, ISTR he was not calculating total suspended weight, he was forgetting his gear. Make it 0.9. Then wanting to downsize to 1 135 at 100 jumps. But I'm not going to read the whole thread again, if only because I've read it a thousand times elsewhere.

So maybe "*very* aggressive" is too much, and she's just right with "aggressive". Not immediately bounce bingo material. Just an accident report waiting to happen.

"He always flew his canopy very carefully, only landed straight in, never turned low - until he was cut off on final."

Johan.
I am. I think.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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OP said he has a 1.25 WL under a 150. At density altitudes normal for XK (they can be looked up, you know), at 38 jumps, I'd agree with her that's aggressive. *Very* aggressive. Maybe Finland has different rules, but that does not make it less aggressive.

Jumping on almost sea level would not make it too agressive.

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So maybe "*very* aggressive" is too much, and she's just right with "aggressive". Not immediately bounce bingo material. Just an accident report waiting to happen.

"He always flew his canopy very carefully, only landed straight in, never turned low - until he was cut off on final."

Some people dedicate his jump for canopy control. I know others still do not know enough even after 500 jumps.

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So maybe "*very* aggressive" is too much, and she's just right with "aggressive". Not immediately bounce bingo material. Just an accident report waiting to happen.

"He always flew his canopy very carefully, only landed straight in, never turned low - until he was cut off on final."

I'm still surprised about the "constructive" attitude here.
None has recommended any reading or canopy control course for him.

Pilot is a quite nice wing for him with short recovery. I used to jump a 150.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Seriously? You're advocating (or at least implying) that a 1.25 loading at 38 jumps is ok? I've never seen this person fly & they may be totally awesome but most people that have seen me fly say that I'm a very good pilot and I'm still being careful about downsizing to a 150 and a 1.23 loading at the jump numbers I have right now. My S&TA has said I'd probably be ok but I'm still taking my time.

I used to jump a Pilot150 with WL 1.3+. So I might have a concept how is that could be.

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I'm not saying this person isn't ready, just surprised that a loading that high would be considered ok for someone with so few jumps, not to mention the shorter lines factor on a 150 sized canopy.

Ready or not ? I can not tell that.

Your fears do not make him right or wrong.
You can hurt yourself with any canopy. I did with a Navigator 220, I hope I'd learnt that lesson.

[danielcroft 2]

I'm aware that any canopy can hurt you (I cut away a student Navigator 200 after giving myself spinning line twists) but there are general rules that have been widely agreed about loading. Various, very experienced people approximately agree on what loadings are appropriate for what experience level based on jump numbers. Yes, I know it's only a guide and there are exceptions to every rule, I'm just wondering what the exceptions are here as I'm looking at downsizing right now.

For the record, I did Germain's course @ 15 jumps and have read "The Canopy & its Pilot". I'm going to start reading again. I always talk to my experienced friends before I start downsizing and when I'm learning new things. I may well be getting the wrong impression from the OP but it seemed that they don't have a mentor, coach or any specific training for swooping which, combined with the aggressive loading would seem to be problematic in my very inexperienced opinion.