JackC 0 #26 June 2, 2009 QuoteWasn't that about about a cat? I'm assuming cats are interchangable with skydivers since load organising is frequently known as cat herding. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #27 June 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteWasn't that about about a cat? I'm assuming cats are interchangable with skydivers since load organising is frequently known as cat herding. Indeed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #28 June 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteThere are anomalies of physics, Hmmm... Schrodingers famous canopy experiment where you pack a canopy in a container and you don't know whether it's a good canopy or a malfunction until you pull. Your packed rig is therefore set in a state of undefined quantum flux between malfunction and no malfunction and the skydiver is neither alive nor dead until the measurement is made at pull time. That anomaly of physics? You are right, but you might call it just life. You just don't know things before they happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 104 #29 June 2, 2009 QuoteLast time I heard that a reserve parachute system failed was 30 years ago. It was a riser problem. The manufacturer was right away out of business. This was not a riser problem. The manufacturer simply failed to anticipate that some customers or riggers would pick the stitches holding the risers to the harness. Riggers and customers still do meticulously stupid stuff. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #30 June 2, 2009 Thank you Captain. I agree with you for all of the reasons you gave. And for those that disagree, I wish you good luck.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #31 June 2, 2009 It's caused by plummeting 6,000 feet, performing various tricks in the sky (like flips and stuff!), at which time your primary chute fails to open properly, after which your safety chute does, too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #32 June 2, 2009 oh and ... Sometimes shit just happens..... (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #33 June 2, 2009 I guess I haven't seen much rigging by riggers that causes malfunctions. Care to elaborate? Take your time. Of course I have seen bad rigging by riggers but usually it either doesn't get opened in the air or doesn't cause an issue. Main systems maintenance is an issue for sure. It's one of the reasons I was mostly against going to 180 day cycle for a lot of years. And I do some main inspection on most rigs during a reserve inspection if I have it. But I don't do a thorough inspection unless someone asks. Untwisting steering lines, bad rubber bands, wimpy pilot chutes are things I may or may not see on my casual look. Those are the responsibility of the owner IMHO. If they want professional help with those things great, and I usually do it almost free when asked. Hmm, as I think about it I have seen badly made toggles cause brake locks twice in the last 18 months. I don't know who was making these pieces of crap but they weren't original equipment. But I don't necessarily call that "rigging" even though it is. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #34 June 2, 2009 QuoteIn all of my 1400 jumps on square canopies, I have not yet experienced a malfunction. Lately I've chosen an elliptical canopy that is much less reliable because of the way it was designed (human factor again). You won't hear me blame "bad luck" when it spins-up and I have to chop. I'm confident enough in my own packing and maintenance of my reserve that I'll tollerate that risk. Well, this explains it. You've been lucky so far in your jumping career. And you've let that go to your head so that you think you can attribute it to your own meticulous packing and maintenance. While that can indeed certainly help, it is no guarantee. It's so easy to psychologically justify why those other stupid people have malfunctions, and why that won't happen to you, because you're different. Well, guess what? You've set yourself up for a harsh reality check some day, which will come when you have your own first-ever malfunction. Then you'll realize that you're not invincible, and that sometimes shit happens even to the best of us, for no explainable reason whatsoever. I once went a stretch of 2,000 jumps without a malfunction. Only to be followed to two in one month. This sport has a way of humbling people who think they're too good to experience the problems encountered by others. You bad day is coming. No matter how much you stick your head in the sand and pretend otherwise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
captain_stan 0 #35 June 2, 2009 Quote...you've let that go to your head...yadda, yadda...when you have your own first-ever malfunction...rant, rant...You bad day is coming...vent,vent...No matter how much you stick your head in the sand and pretend otherwise.Ouch! Actually in my 600+ jumps since I've gone to elliptical mains, I've chopped 2 spinners, neither of which was the result of bad luck. They were the result of bad body position or bad packing with an unforgiving canopy model that is known for it's marginal openings. Is that humble enough for you? Based on my experience, I don't think that either of these line-twist incidents would have resulted in a cut-away under one of my old rectangular canopies. BTW, my reserve is not elliptical. Quotethose other stupid people have malfunctions, and why that won't happen to you, because you're differentAgain, those are your words, not mine. We all have a capacity to fail--let's not blame luck when we do so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SethInMI 146 #36 June 3, 2009 On Luck: I don't believe in luck. What I think people call bad luck, or "you do everything right and it still does not work", is what engineers would call a stackup of tolerances. You think, "my equipment was good, my packjob was good, my body position was good, I still had a mal, it was bad luck." Yes, ok, call it that, but what actually happened was your packjob was a little off, your equipment was a little off, and your body position was a lilttle off, all off in just the right way to add up and cause a mal. There are 100's if not 1000's of different things that influence a deployment: Tuck tabs, risers in riser covers, line stows, flakes, slider position, canopy line lengths, shoulder heights, leg strap tension, etc, etc. Each may be acceptable in itself, but all can contribute to your mal, and it is possible that you will never be sure of the root cause. Make no mistake, I believe there is a root cause or causes for every mal, and a root cause or causes for any accident of any kind. Labeling an accident "bad luck" is usually a code word for "we don't need to change or improve anything to recude the likelihood of this happening again. We have done all that we can already" Now maybe that is true, and maybe it isn't.It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #37 June 3, 2009 Great reply. Probably better than mine, but here goes anyway: I find it ironic that some are so opposed to belief in God, yet defend their belief in Bad Luck so vehemently. Not you John, but some. Think about this, as I try and make everybody mad: God causes mals. Everything happens for a reason, and only the ONE TRUE LORD does it. Why? Because He is a vengeful capricious child God, that likes nothing better than causing us misery for no reason. Kind of like burning bugs with a magnifying glass. Saint or sinner, he is out to fuck you up. So Bad Luck, or God, take your choice. Either carry a 4 leaf clover or pray a lot. Neither one helps! For myself, I don't believe in Bad Luck; anybody that wants to, by all means do so. Believe in God, or not, as you wish too. IT DOESEN'T MATTER. No matter what you believe, you MAY get bit on the ass. I think we all know that, and want to do everything we can to prevent it. Let's argue beliefs in speakers corner, and keep this to things we can actually do something about. But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #38 June 3, 2009 QuoteQuote...you've let that go to your head...yadda, yadda...when you have your own first-ever malfunction...rant, rant...You bad day is coming...vent,vent...No matter how much you stick your head in the sand and pretend otherwise.Ouch! Actually in my 600+ jumps since I've gone to elliptical mains, I've chopped 2 spinners, neither of which was the result of bad luck. They were the result of bad body position or bad packing with an unforgiving canopy model that is known for it's marginal openings. Is that humble enough for you? Based on my experience, I don't think that either of these line-twist incidents would have resulted in a cut-away under one of my old rectangular canopies. BTW, my reserve is not elliptical. Quotethose other stupid people have malfunctions, and why that won't happen to you, because you're differentAgain, those are your words, not mine. We all have a capacity to fail--let's not blame luck when we do so. Wow, when did DZ. COM become REC. .? Not aimed at you John. After being away for awhile it seems to be degenerating in to the wild west days of the REC. during the 90's. What happened to civil discourse? Although Capt what'hisname ( Stan I thiink) has a legitamate aurguement, I do take your side of the argumenent about "shit happens". If one has been around for a while, one has seen and done enough shit to realize that if somthing can go wrong it will eventuly happen when you least expect it. I surely hope his luck hold's out, not that he believes in luck or fate. But that's life, is it not ? Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
captain_stan 0 #39 June 3, 2009 Quote it seems to be degenerating in to the wild west days of the REC. during the 90's. What happened to civil discourse? Gosh, if you are that easily offended, then maybe you’d be more comfortable in a gardening or quilting forum. Having been personally characterized in an uncomplimentary way in this thread, I still don’t see the justification in that kind of over-dramatization. I have exchanged some pleasant PMs with those on both sides of this issue. To the credit of those who feel strongly, I’ve seen nothing that qualifies as a personal attack, and I don’t see any negligence in the moderators for keeping hands-off this thread, so far. Since the concensus here doesn't put "bad luck" in the OPs top 3 reasons, I'm not sure this discussion even belongs in this thread or this forum. It's beginning to sound like a Speaker's Corner Forum thread for believers and non-believers. To which, BTW, I have nothing to contribute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #40 June 3, 2009 QuoteQuoteWasn't that about about a cat? I'm assuming cats are interchangable with skydivers since load organising is frequently known as cat herding. Maybe so, but I don't think cats are safely interchangeable with canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #41 June 3, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteWasn't that about about a cat? I'm assuming cats are interchangeable with skydivers since load organising is frequently known as cat herding. Maybe so, but I don't think cats are safely interchangeable with canopies. I dunno...mine hacks out the occasional fur-ball when I pack it! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
