RIGGERS: Suggested training for Vigil customers

[tdog 0]

I sent the attached to all the riggers I work with locally...

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Speaking from experience as a new Vigil 2 owner - I have a user training recommendation for riggers installing Vigils into customer's equipment.

I own a Cypres and for many years just turned it on at the beginning of the day and knew it would turn off in 14 hours at home, at the DZ, wherever. It always did.

But, I have been concerned that a DZ packer, customer, or rigger could turn on a Cypres at the end of the day (for a legitimate reason), and the next morning the rental rig would be on for the sunrise jump, but turn off in jump or during the day when the "time ran out." The "timed turnoff" I always thought was a weak point.



Well, my Vigil has proven the opposite. 96 hours after turning it on at the DZ over the weekend, it still is on as I type this email. My home is 159 feet higher than the DZ (there was a survey guy onsite today for a construction project, so I had him "shoot a point" to calculate the altitude of my sofa to the nearest 1/16th of an inch, and I assume the runway altitude as published by the FAA is accurate, so I now have accurate measurements - kind of cool, huh).

Anyway - long story short, the Vigil 2 thinks it has been on jump run for 88 hours now 159 feet above the runway, and thus has not turned off.

I called Vigil USA and they confirmed that it would stay on for about a year until the battery runs out - and that if I drove back to the DZ and put it in a locker for 14 hours, it would turn off.

They also told me the Vigil timer will reset so it will stay on (theoretically) for a full day of jumping if I drove back to the DZ. Although clearly the calibrated altitude is set wrong now as weather has changed.

The owners manual clearly says to turn off the Vigil before putting it in a car due to the air pressure changes in a car, but does not clearly define that the Vigil will stay on forever if it is taken to an altitude other than where it was turned on. Note - it happened once out of maybe 10 trips home with this unit, so it does not always do it. I assume a weather front moved in or something causing it to think something different this time.

When researching online, some riggers and experienced jumpers claim (although not official Vigil publications), that the Vigil 2 does not have any calculations for "impossible situations", such as accelerations faster than gravitational force, so they can fire in cars very easily when car doors are slammed shut.

In fact, Vigil folks told me on the phone, "At least you are not faced with the cost of a new cutter", after reminding me that the owners manual is very specific to this subject.

To me, it seems that being on "jump run" for 88 hours 159 feet above the calibrated altitude without moving a foot, seems like an impossible situation, but, I guess the Vigil philosophy is either "less code is better" or "better safe than sorry" when omitting this decision in the logic. Does anyone know the Cypres brand logic as to the timed turnoff?

My recommendation to riggers...

Most skydivers "know" their Cypres brand AAD will turn off and that there are no concerns with driving in a car with a Cypres brand AAD. Most skydivers think the Vigil "is just like the Cypres", so they don't read every line of the owners manual or take it seriously. As a rigger, I am at fault too.

Hence - a training issue... Tell your customers that they MUST turn off their Vigil before putting it in a car, and that if they don't the Vigil will stay on forever ruining their battery life and/or fire unexpectedly. Vigil brand units handle situations differently than what customers expect, so they should be reminded to read the manual.

Thanks

[riggerrob 558]

Thanks for the explanation.

We just sent a Vigil back to the factory because it stayed ON for most of a week.

[Fast 0]

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Thanks for the explanation.

We just sent a Vigil back to the factory because it stayed ON for most of a week.

One more thing in a long list of reasons I don't like vigils.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[vigilcandi 0]

Hi Travis,

There seems to be some misunderstanding about what we discussed earlier today. You were inquiring about why your Vigil was still turned on, after more than 14 hours.

If you leave the DZ with a Vigil turned on, and there is an altitude change, the Vigil will detect that it is in the air and it will not switch off.
This security adaption was implemented on the Vigil II to avoid the unit switching off after 14 hours -in case a jumper is airborne at that time.
The Vigil will remain on after 14 hours as long as a difference in pressure of 6mbar is measured, compared to its switch on pressure (ground zero) . This measurement will be done every 30 minutes, as long as those two pressures are not equal at +-6mbar or 50 meters or 150 feet, the Vigil will register an "airborne" status.
-After the 14 hours, it will stay on at 30 min. increments, until you are back at ground zero.

IF you change form one drop-zone to another, one location to another, you must switch your Vigil OFF, ....then, at the new location, turn it back on to re-calibrate the unit to the new parameters. IF you do not do this, the Vigil will keep in memory the wrong ground reference or "ground zero reference" and will function in regards to the wrong parameters.

The best suggested training for Vigil customers, or any AAD owner for that matter, is to read the Manual. It is best to do this before you have a problem. All AADs on the market operate differently for different safety reasons. This particular feature is very important to some people.

[tdog 0]

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There seems to be some misunderstanding about what we discussed earlier today. You were inquiring about why your Vigil was still turned on, after more than 14 hours.

I don't think there is any misunderstanding - unless I typed something wrong. Your data is just much more complete. My post was a compilation of things I noticed from multiple sources.

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-After the 14 hours, it will stay on at 30 min. increments, until you are back at ground zero.

That is not what I remember from our call. You said it was 14 hours from the last jump when I asked something like, "Say I drive back to the DZ with it left on all week, notice my Vigil is on, and think my friend must have turned it on for me or I think I already turned it on. Will it stay on all day?" I guess we were not on the same page when I asked the question or my ears were off as I know you gave me lots of good info. I am glad you clarified as that changes my understanding.

Moral to the story.... Always turn off before taking home. Always cycle power in the morning before the first jump if you are at all worried.

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The best suggested training for Vigil customers, or any AAD owner for that matter, is to read the Manual. It is best to do this before you have a problem. All AADs on the market operate differently for different safety reasons. This particular feature is very important to some people.

Honestly, there needs to be a lot added to every AAD instruction book. For an example, I searched "30" looking for your 30 minute claim. I found 12 instances of 30 in the PDF document, not one relating to the time you mention. Searching your competitors documentation I find little about their "shutdown logic" in case of long jump days or if the AAD thinks it has left the ground when the 14 hours passes.

This is not a Vigil bash - in fact I think you do a similar, if not better job, documenting features, limitations than some competitors, however this 30 minute thing is news to my ears.

Thanks for posting.

[tdog 0]

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Thanks for the explanation.

We just sent a Vigil back to the factory because it stayed ON for most of a week.

One more thing in a long list of reasons I don't like vigils.

Before this becomes a bash-fest.... What would your Cypres brand AAD do if you turned it on at 11 PM for a night jump then gave it to your friend to jump the next day? I always have been fearful of any device that shuts off automatically. I don't think this is documented in the Cypres owners manual.

[martlet 0]

I noticed the same with my Vigil II. It stayed on, so now I just shut it off before I leave the DZ. It's an easy solution. I like knowing my Vigil won't shut off while I'm in the air.

[tdog 0]

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I noticed the same with my Vigil II. It stayed on, so now I just shut it off before I leave the DZ. It's an easy solution.

Which is contrary to the Cypres methodologies, where in fact, if you search these forums, users discovered turning the Cypres off consumed more battery life than letting the timer expire, so the industry standard in the field became, "leave it on at the end of the day unless something is very unique."

Hence we are back, full circle, to the point of my post... Which was an email I sent to fellow riggers in our area and thought I would share here too.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Is it possible to run the battery out before the 4 year point, if you manually turned it on and off, say once per day?

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi tdog,

First, that is great of you to bring this up; since 'most' people do fail to read the manuals.

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I always have been fearful of any device that shuts off automatically.

This has always been something that people have used to bash the ASTRA since it requires that the user do an actual shutoff as it will not time out.

IMO, it is somewhat like blonds or redheads; what one do you like.

They all will do the job that you want them to do.

JerryBaumchen

[JohnDeere 0]

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I don't think there is any misunderstanding

Then you say

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That is not what I remember from our call.

Yea ok

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[hackish 8]

Very few times have I remembered to turn the vigil2 off before sticking it in the car for the ride home. Never had any problem with it. Have spoken to many people who do the same and they haven't had problems either. I understand it is possible to have a firing when I slam the car door so if that happens I'm willing to accept that my screwup caused it.

-Michael

[Reginald 0]

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What would your Cypres brand AAD do if you turned it on at 11 PM for a night jump then gave it to your friend to jump the next day? I always have been fearful of any device that shuts off automatically. I don't think this is documented in the Cypres owners manual.

Not to get between you guys BUT, the shut off period for a Cypres is pretty well known. Fear of a night jump and then jumping the next day seems a bit odd to me. However, I'm accustomed to my Cypres and know that if I’ve been jumping during the day and do a night jump it is wise to turn it off and then on again before the night jump. It’s actually part of the night briefing. As for “giving it to a friend” the next day again it seems like a bit of a paranoid fear. But anytime I’ve done a night jump and am jumping the next day I always turn the Cypres off and on again in the morning. If I loaned my rig to a friend and had done night jumps the evening before I would of course take care of the Cypres before I handed it over.

I do have to agree that FAR too few people never read the manual! In fact I’m shocked at how few people read it.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[tdog 0]

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BUT, the shut off period for a Cypres is pretty well known.

What will a Cypres do if you get in an aircraft 13 hours 50 minutes after turning it on and start flying? I used the find feature of Acrobat Reader and searched the manual for the words "Hour" and "Minute" and can't find the answer. I assume it will shut off in the aircraft or freefall based upon the manual, but it does not say for sure.

I asked a lot of skydivers - and I beg to differ - it is NOT well known.

Imagine this - a rigger packs a reserve on a tandem rig at 8 PM. At 10 PM he turns on the AAD as part of his checklist to make sure the unit selftests before putting into service. He puts the rig on the shelf. The next morning the weather gets good and some customers walk in and the DZO decides to open shop on a day that was previously a no jump day. The rigger either thought that it would shut off before the next jump morning, or did not think to turn it off, user error. A tandem instructor shows up after load 1 and grabs a rig. He sees the cypres is on, assuming the load 1 instructor turned it on. The load 1 instructor assumed it was on because DZ policy says the packers turn on all AADs when they open the hangar in the morning.

Now - on the plane 14 hours comes....

It sounds far fetched - however many DZ's rigging lofts work late nights when tandem rigs, rental rigs, or student rigs need to be packed due to reserve rides. Packing classes for student rigs are often after sunset.

So, I think the Vigil philosophy is great - if it thinks it is above the turn-on altitude, stay on just in case the jumper is jumping.

The Vigil has a great display. Too bad it just does not say how many hours and minutes are left next to the mode setting... When you do your gear check, you would say, "damn, 1 hour, who turned this thing on last night, I should reset it." No surprises.

[tsalnukt 1]

To the best of my knowledge and others.....Similar to the vigil when the cypress senses that you are climbing it goes into "working mode". I have seen them on in the hangar and turn off before we get on the plane, but never had one turn off on the ride to altitude knowing that it was turned on the evening before. I could be wrong, but I think that it works similarly to the vigil.

[tdog 0]

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To the best of my knowledge and others......

Hyjacking my own thread, (well kind of, this thread was started so riggers could learn about things to tell their customers)...

I am going to see if I can find out.

[piisfish 135]

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..customers ...should be reminded to read the manual.

worth repeating.. RTFM...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[JohnDeere 0]

you ask what will happen if the cypres is on for 13 hours and 50 min in the plane.......so the vigil will stay for that jump but as soon as the vigil sits on the ground after that 13 hours and 50 min and one jump....it sits there for 30 min while being packed and waiting for the next student to use it, it will shut off also..... at least be fair when comparing.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[phoenixlpr 0]

I have seen a log of "switching on" the Cypres in one club.

I know only one day when we jump longer than 14h and this is a party of the safety briefing on that day.

[tdog 0]

I now know after asking someone who represents the Cypres 1 and 2 products officially that the Cypres will turn off at 14 hours, even if that 14 hours is in freefall.

[erdnarob 1]

As I mentioned TRAVELLING IN A MOUNTAIN area in another post I was refering to a possible recalibration of an AAD. Somebody thought I was speaking about the 78 mph speed to be reached (vertical component) on a mountain road. Not at all. I can see that it can cause the AAD staying at on since "it believes" it is airborne.

My Vigil I or II never failed to swith off after 14 hours or so the few times I forgot. I didn't stay beside it to see the switch off but the day after it was. I have to say that generally the difference in altitude between my DZ and home is less than 150 ft. And when I go elsewhere, it is rare when it is a mountain area.

After reading all cases in this thread, I can see that the Vigil works as designed. But it is definitely a good habit to switch it off after a jumping day. Actually when jumping we should switch on the AAD at the beginning of the day, then switch it off at noon and on again to recalibrate it for any possible atmospheric pressure change then swith it off at the end of the day. We do the brakes of a canopy every jump why not taking care of the AAD twice a day.

Thanks for warning us about a too big difference in altitude between DZ and home. The cure is the switch off when finished.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[pilotdave 0]

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After reading all cases in this thread, I can see that the Vigil works as designed. But it is definitely a good habit to switch it off after a jumping day. Actually when jumping we should switch on the AAD at the beginning of the day, then switch it off at noon and on again to recalibrate it for any possible atmospheric pressure change then swith it off at the end of the day.

Exactly. The Vigil works as designed. That's why I'll stick with a cypres. It works as designed as well, but apparently does some extra data-validity checking to detect faults or seemingly impossible situations. The vigil apparently just detects firing parameters and fires, just like it's designed to do. The cypres also doesn't seem to need to be rebooted at noon.
Dave

[tdog 0]

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Actually when jumping we should switch on the AAD at the beginning of the day, then switch it off at noon and on again to recalibrate it for any possible atmospheric pressure change then switch it off at the end of the day.

Seems like a bit of extreme advice.

Per the Cypres2 user guide:

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While it is in use, CYPRES constantly checks the air
pressure while on the ground and, if necessary, adjusts
to changing weather conditions, e.g. air pressure.
Even though you might need to reset your altimeter
before a jump, CYPRES takes care of itself.

Per Vigil 2 owners manual:

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The Vigil® must imperatively be switched ON at ground level of your take-off zone
(This becomes the “GROUND ZERO” reference altitude).
Your Vigil® will recalibrate itself for variation of the atmospheric pressure.

Attention: If after a certain time there is a great change in atmospheric pressure (more
than 10 hPa), it is recommended that you shut down and restart your Vigil® to guarantee optimal
precision.

I pulled some weather data from Denver, Chicago and Miami over 3 days and found that a running sum over any 24 hour period in the 3 days the absolute minimum and maximum did not change 10 hPa...

So, I am not going to cycle my AAD every day at noon unless I have reason to believe a major front blew in.

[randompoints 0]

quick question. 10hpa is equal to how many feet? if thats more than say 100 feet. you might reconsider that idea. moving an AAD fire down from 750 to 650 or less really reduces chance of full inflation.

the one AAD fire i've seen is stupid low maybe 10seconds of canopy flight

[tdog 0]

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quick question. 10hpa is equal to how many feet? if thats more than say 100 feet. you might reconsider that idea.

About 300 feet.... But...

Did you take into consideration that the manual also says it is constantly adjusting itself for altitude, and thus we have to assume it won't be 300 feet off even with a 10 mb change...

Have you looked at weather data to see how likely 10mb (hpa) changes are?

I have learned a lot by researching stuff thanks to questions you guys have asked.

This morning I checked the weather in strategic cities where there are weather fronts and/or the worst weather I could find...

Then I picked random locations all over the country, North Dakota, New York City, Yumi Az, San Diego, Santa Barbara, Miami, Salt Lake City, Chicago, Kansas City, etc.

I can't find a 10 mb change in a jumping day, and it is hard to find a 10 mb change in a 3 day span.

Check it out yourself. Go to http://www.noaa.gov/ Enter in your city, then click the 3 day history button.