RIGGERS: Suggested training for Vigil customers

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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Imagine this - a rigger packs a reserve on a tandem rig at 8 PM. At 10 PM he turns on the AAD as part of his checklist to make sure the unit selftests before putting into service. He puts the rig on the shelf. The next morning the weather gets good and some customers walk in and the DZO decides to open shop on a day that was previously a no jump day. The rigger either thought that it would shut off before the next jump morning, or did not think to turn it off, user error. A tandem instructor shows up after load 1 and grabs a rig. He sees the cypres is on, assuming the load 1 instructor turned it on. The load 1 instructor assumed it was on because DZ policy says the packers turn on all AADs when they open the hangar in the morning.

Well, I've been reading this thread and I am puzzled by the notion that a jumper - especially an instructor - should feel safe in assuming that they can rely on the AAD to be on and working on any jump just because it was on the last time they checked it that day. Fun jumpers should not rely at all on the AAD saving them. I think it's most prudent for any jumper to turn on the AAD themselves each jumping day and watch it do its self checks. If you simply look at an AAD's control unit screen and see that it's on, how do you know that it didn't do something really strange during the self-check sequence???

In the case of the instructor, I understand that there is that added issue of liability. This is why it's even more important for the instructor to actually turn on the AAD himself and verify that it checks out.

As far as educating users, I would stress two habits:

1. Always turn your AAD on yourself each day and WATCH it do it's checks.

2. Turn it off every day at the end of the day. If it's already on before the first jump and you're not the one who turned it on the same day, the turn it off first and go to step 1.!

You think this is not the most convenient approach? Fine, but don't blame the manufacturer (especially if you haven't read the manual.)

[tdog 0]

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should feel safe in assuming that they can rely on the AAD to be on and working on any jump just because it was on the last time they checked it that day

If I check it three times, like all instructors are supposed to do with students, once when they gear up, once before boarding, and once before exiting - I am doing my job to make sure everything is a-ok.

A Vigil - in the aircraft - should stay on per the manufacturer's instructions, until the student lands.

A Cypres - in the aircraft - will turn off after 14 hours.

Further, I do question every rig at the start of the day. Why is it on, who turned it on, when was it turned on. Normally your student knows, "I turned it on when I grabbed it." I have cycled power before when I was in doubt. This is a good training thing for the student too - "show me how to turn it off and back on again."

I was simply pointing out a possibility of what might occur if someone screws up along the way.... Mistakes are often when multiple small things happen along the way that become one big thing.

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2. Turn it off every day at the end of the day. If it's already on before the first jump and you're not the one who turned it on the same day, the turn it off first and go to step 1.!

I typically visit larger DZs in my travels. When I visit, I pop my head in the student areas to see how they do their programs. I have many tandem instructor friends. I have worked with some really great AFF instructors. I have yet to see a turbine DZ with 20-40 rigs in the tandem/student/rental inventory advocate cycling the power on the AAD before every single jump. It is rare you will be using the same rig more than once when the inventory is large - so every jump becomes the 1st jump of the day for you (or your student).

Some tandem rigs get 15 jumps a day by 8 different instructors. Student rigs get 10 jumps a day by 10 different students.

Do you know a mid to large sized DZ that advocates cycling power before each jump? Zhills? ELoy? Perris? Chicago? If so, please let me know so I can advocate it to my peers and/or discuss with one of their instructors the pros and cons. It is quite possible that 15 selftests a day cause more harm to the AAD than good. Who knows without asking these questions? Do you have data?

[tdog 0]

UPDATE:

May 6 2009 I created this thread when my Vigil stayed on for 3 days. You may go to the first post and relive the debate if you wish.

May 18 2009 a Vigil fired above the desired altitude. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3572705;search_string=vigil;#3569998 I received word from two reliable sources that the user took their rig from about 5,500 feet MSL to a sea level DZ without turning off their Vigil. It fired in freefall as it was calibrated to the wrong DZ.

May 22, 2009 http://www.vigil.aero/...Airborne_Status_.pdf
Vigil posted an official informational bulletin.

June 20, 2009 Another Vigil user took their rig from about 5,500 feet above sea level - to sea level, and it fired in a midsize formation with people docked to the user. My good friend was in the formation and he told me the Vigil was on for MANY WEEKS before it went on the vacation to California. Based upon the group, who are my friends, I can only speculate that they were sharing rigs and thought someone else turned on the AAD as most people are in the "Cypres Mindset" that when it is on, it is on, that it will turn off on its own, and it would not be on from a jump 5 weeks prior so don't worry about rebooting if you were not the person to jump it on the very last jump.

There needs to be a change from the "Cypres Mindset" to a "Vigil Mindset" as they are not the same...

My Opinion.... THIS IS A BIG DEAL. I predicted problems in my devils advocate comments in this thread, little did I know that they would come true twice in a summer. Clearly, this is happening to other users (statistical probability) however they are not taking the rig to a different DZ, or if they are, the altitude change is too slight, so they are not firing.

So flame me all you want. RIGGERS - TRAIN YOUR CUSTOMERS. CUSTOMERS - KNOW THAT THE VIGIL IS NOT A CYPRES.

If I was Vigil - I would simply change the screen to say, PRO.... Powered on for X hours. After 14 hours, PRO..... Reboot. Heck, how about, PRO... Airborne when it thinks it is airborne. Something so users know that their AAD is not calibrated correctly...


For the record, I have a Vigil and like it.

[parachutist 1]

Adding a new entry to this list:

Jan 9, 2011 A Vigil II fired approximately the same time that the main fully inflated (The jumper estimated 2,500 ft AGL). This Vigil had been turned on by its owner the day before at a DZ that is 1261 ft MSL. The next day (today) he jumped at a DZ where field level is 88 ft. The Vigil was never turned off and back on to allow it to adjust for the new altitude.

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May 6 2009 I created this thread when my Vigil stayed on for 3 days. You may go to the first post and relive the debate if you wish.

May 18 2009 a Vigil fired above the desired altitude. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3572705;search_string=vigil;#3569998 I received word from two reliable sources that the user took their rig from about 5,500 feet MSL to a sea level DZ without turning off their Vigil. It fired in freefall as it was calibrated to the wrong DZ.

May 22, 2009 http://www.vigil.aero/...Airborne_Status_.pdf
Vigil posted an official informational bulletin.

June 20, 2009 Another Vigil user took their rig from about 5,500 feet above sea level - to sea level, and it fired in a midsize formation with people docked to the user. My good friend was in the formation and he told me the Vigil was on for MANY WEEKS before it went on the vacation to California. Based upon the group, who are my friends, I can only speculate that they were sharing rigs and thought someone else turned on the AAD as most people are in the "Cypres Mindset" that when it is on, it is on, that it will turn off on its own, and it would not be on from a jump 5 weeks prior so don't worry about rebooting if you were not the person to jump it on the very last jump.

[tdog 0]

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Adding a new entry to this list:

Wow, again...

I can name many "pros" and "cons" for a vigil staying on when it thinks it is not on the ground. I actually think this is a bonus in many ways. But over and over again they are firing by people who are making mistakes.

Before you trash me by saying, "it was carelessness, they should have read the manual", I know the people in one of the previous incidents. They were brothers and shared just about everything. When they got to the foreign DZ they carried gear in together, one purchased tickets for both of them, while the other got gear out of the car for both of them. Because it had been over a month since they jumped, both brothers assumed the other brother turned on their vigil when they found it on. The rig(s) were jointly owned, meaning they shared equipment and called the gear "ours" not "that is his and this is mine". I see a lot of this in young brothers and husbands and wives that skydive. So, it was 100% logical that the AADs were turned on by the other brother that day and neither thought to ask.

Of course assumptions can kill, we all know that... But I still beg the Vigil manufacture to make a simple change to the software to help.

When the unit starts up it displays a lot of words, and finally displays "pro". So having text on the display is already designed.

Why not have two words: "On Ground" or "In Sky" on the display. This way, on gear check the person knows their vigil is miscalibrated. It could show "In Sky" when the altitude is dangerously off, not just minor differences due to barometric pressure.... Say, 350 feet off of calibration...


In addition, the unit could say "reset me" or something like that on the 12 hour mark. That would clue everyone that it has been on too long and is about ready to turn off - or that it has been on so long (like overnight or months) - that it needs to be calibrated.

Yes, all of this could be fixed if the users would just turn off their Vigils before leaving the DZ... But then again, if users were perfect we would not need AADs in the first place!

Signed, a happy Vigil owner who just wants the best product out there.

[tdog 0]

The Vigil Misfire list due to ground calibration issues (joining multiple posts into one):

UPDATED JANUARY 9, 2011

May 6 2009 I created this thread when my Vigil stayed on for 3 days. You may go to the first post and relive the debate if you wish.

May 18 2009 a Vigil fired above the desired altitude. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3572705;search_string=vigil;#3569998 I received word from two reliable sources that the user took their rig from about 5,500 feet MSL to a sea level DZ without turning off their Vigil. It fired in freefall as it was calibrated to the wrong DZ.

May 22, 2009 http://www.vigil.aero/...Airborne_Status_.pdf
Vigil posted an official informational bulletin.

June 20, 2009 Another Vigil user took their rig from about 5,500 feet above sea level - to sea level, and it fired in a midsize formation with people docked to the user. My good friend was in the formation and he told me the Vigil was on for MANY WEEKS before it went on the vacation to California. Based upon the group, who are my friends, I can only speculate that they were sharing rigs and thought someone else turned on the AAD as most people are in the "Cypres Mindset" that when it is on, it is on, that it will turn off on its own, and it would not be on from a jump 5 weeks prior so don't worry about rebooting if you were not the person to jump it on the very last jump.

Jan 9, 2011 A Vigil II fired approximately the same time that the main fully inflated (The jumper estimated 2,500 ft AGL). This Vigil had been turned on by its owner the day before at a DZ that is 1261 ft MSL. The next day (today) he jumped at a DZ where field level is 88 ft. The Vigil was never turned off and back on to allow it to adjust for the new altitude.

[sundevil777 93]

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in fact, if you search these forums, users discovered turning the Cypres off consumed more battery life than letting the timer expire, so the industry standard in the field became, "leave it on at the end of the day unless something is very unique."

This is not correct, for more info:

http://www.pcprg.com/cyprespc.htm

Unfortunately not all discussions of this topic results in the correct info.

So, consider that the unit uses about/at most around 100 times less power at 'rest' compared to when the LED is on/calibrating. Turning off the unit takes, say 10 seconds or so. So if the unit were on for 100*10=1000 seconds or about 16 minutes, then you are better to turn it off. Even with the assumptions that I haven't listed, or even if it is 1000 times less power, then it would be about 2.5 hours for the break even point. So I think it is fairly safe to make the obvious conclusion - turning it off manually saves battery power compared to letting it time out after 14 hours.

The reason why the battery voltage is lower when the ammeter was connected is because a parallel circuit is established, the measurement affects the system by draining some power. A more expensive meter with a higher impedance would use less.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,400]

>The reason why the battery voltage is lower when the ammeter was connected is
>because a parallel circuit is established, the measurement affects the system by
>draining some power. A more expensive meter with a higher impedance would use less.

Current meters connect in series. An ideal current meter has an impedance of zero. Cheap meters have higher impedances, and therefore can cause unintended voltage drops.

[tdog 0]

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Current meters connect in series. An ideal current meter has an impedance of zero. Cheap meters have higher impedances, and therefore can cause unintended voltage drops.

In fact - if you install a current meter in parallel, you "dead short" the circuit across the two poles you are metering. I found this out a few times in my life when I was sloppy and had my meter with the probes in the current metering configuration and touched them to, say, a 480 volt circuit in a service disconnect. Makes pretty sparks, dirties up the end of your probes, and requires a new fuse to be installed in the meter. But for a split second you get to see the full potential of that nuclear powerplant down the street across your meter.

[sundevil777 93]

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>The reason why the battery voltage is lower when the ammeter was connected is
>because a parallel circuit is established, the measurement affects the system by
>draining some power. A more expensive meter with a higher impedance would use less.

Current meters connect in series. An ideal current meter has an impedance of zero. Cheap meters have higher impedances, and therefore can cause unintended voltage drops.

Quite right, I knew better, just a brain lock while writing.

Anyway, according to Airtek, we don't need to be concerned about the difference in battery usage, but the myth of leaving it on being better should be firmly busted.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[erdnarob 1]

Well if people would only read their owner's manual and understand the text, they would have less problems and probably you would like Vigils. The reason a Vigil II stays on is that the owner didn't switch it off after the jumping day and went home at a place located 150 feet or more above or below the DZ (plus or minus 150 feet is the Vigil arming altitude, Cypres such altitude is 1400 feet). The Vigil then "thinks" it is still airborne and faithfully, is ready to do its job. It is the AAD user's responsibility to know his device just like a pilot has to know his instruments. DZ have the responsibility too to organize seminars about AAD knowledge, at the safety day for instance. In other word, the Vigil is ready to protect you as soon as you reach +/- 150 feet above the place where you switched it on. If you are living in a flat area like in Florida (not if you are in a penthouse in a high rise building) the Vigil will turn off automatically after 14 hours if not switched off.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[DSE 3]

Today I had a student show up with a Vigil. It had been switched on at the same DZ where your guy failed to reset his.
I don't jump Vigils, don't know much about them, don't need to (outside of a student having one and knowing how to turn on/off).
Thanks to this thread, I noticed hers was on, and explained to her why it was still armed, and then reset it.
If she had needed it...it would have been a problem.

[piisfish 135]

On the other hand, do you know of a jumpship capable of flying 2 weeks ( besides balloons and Zeppelins ) ? I do understand the Read The Manual theory, but sometimes some stories are not logical.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[LongWayToFall 0]

It isn't that hard to just check your AAD as you always do, and if you notice that it is on, to switch it off/on again. Even if you stay the night at the DZ, you would want to, to avoid the chance of it shutting off after you put the rig on (at 14hr time-out).

[piisfish 135]

I don't have a problem with switching an AAD off, or reading and understanding a manual (which apparently many owners of the "newer" AAD's don't do).
It seems that many AAD fires did occur due to operator mistake AKA "I didn't RTFM" errors

But what I do not understand is the reasoning to let an AAD act according to illogical (to me)/impossible situations.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[LongWayToFall 0]

Yeah, it does seem excessive. Some of the pressure change/acceleration rate stuff on them is overly sensitive on them as well. Don't know what to say!

[popsjumper 2]

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Per Vigil 2 owners manual:

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The Vigil® must imperatively be switched ON at ground level of your take-off zone
(This becomes the “GROUND ZERO” reference altitude).
Your Vigil® will recalibrate itself for variation of the atmospheric pressure.

I'm surprised that nobody caught this.
The bolded phrase assumes that your take-off point and your landing point are the same altitude. Bad Ju-Ju in some cases.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[riggerpaul 1]

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Per Vigil 2 owners manual:

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The Vigil® must imperatively be switched ON at ground level of your take-off zone
(This becomes the “GROUND ZERO” reference altitude).
Your Vigil® will recalibrate itself for variation of the atmospheric pressure.

I'm surprised that nobody caught this.
The bolded phrase assumes that your take-off point and your landing point are the same altitude. Bad Ju-Ju in some cases.

You have to look elsewhere to find the stuff about altitude correction.

Unlike the CYPRES, altitude correction is not part of the Start Up procedures with a Vigil (or Argus, for that matter).

Regardless of altitude correction, the airport ground zero reference is used for arming. After applying altitude correction, the firing altitudes have been changed, but the Ground Zero reference for arming remains.

As I read what you quoted from the manual, it is saying that the Vigil MUST be turned on at the takeoff airport.

This matter has confused users of AADs for some time. They are ALL required to be turned on (and altitude corrected, if needed) at the takeoff airport.

While I am no fan of the Vigil, I don't think that the error you point out is really an error at all, so it doesn't need to be "caught".

[billvon 2,400]

>Well if people would only read their owner's manual and understand the
>text, they would have less problems and probably you would like Vigils.

I know at least one rigger who read the manual front to back and did not deduce this. It's not easy to figure out; nowhere in the manual does it say "the Vigil will not shut off in 14 hours if the user moves it to a slightly different elevation, or if the weather changes significantly."

It would help to say that clearly in the manual.

>If you are living in a flat area like in Florida (not if you are in a penthouse
>in a high rise building) the Vigil will turn off automatically after 14 hours if
>not switched off.

And if the weather does not change significantly.

[faulknerwn 36]

Are there any dropzones out there (ones in the mountains maybe?) where the packing area/buildings are 150 higher/lower than the landing area? Just curious if this could affect people just moving around a dz...

[Jenn83 0]

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It's not easy to figure out; nowhere in the manual does it say "the Vigil will not shut off in 14 hours if the user moves it to a slightly different elevation, or if the weather changes significantly."

It would help to say that clearly in the manual.

P. 8 of the Vigil Manual:

"The selected activation mode «PRO», «STUDENT» or «TANDEM» will remain visible on the LCD display until the Vigil® is switched off or turns off automatically after 14 hours. If the Vigil is airborne due to a difference in pressure equivalent to more than ±150ft (±46m) compared to the “ground zero” reference (pressure), it is highly recommended to switch off your Vigil® after your last jump of the day. Be aware that your Vigil® will not switch off as long as its “ground zero” reference altitude is not measured again (at ±150ft or ± 46m) by the Vigil®."

Hope that helps a little

[LongWayToFall 0]

Hollister has a landing area +420ft above the airport. I simply set my altitude correction on startup (at the airport) and I am good to go.

Another reason why it is CRITICAL to watch your aad start up, is that this offset is stored even if the unit is shut off and restarted. Going to another DZ and forgetting you entered in an offset last time is going to be a really bad thing. (I like this feature though, if you always jump at a DZ which needs an offset)

[billvon 2,400]

>If the Vigil is airborne due to a difference in pressure equivalent to more
>than ±150ft (±46m) compared to the “ground zero” reference (pressure),
>it is highly recommended to switch off your Vigil® after your last jump of
>the day.

OK. Since most people are not airborne at the end of the day, that would seem not to apply.

>Be aware that your Vigil® will not switch off as long as its “ground zero”
>reference altitude is not measured again (at ±150ft or ± 46m) by the
>Vigil®."

So it will not switch off if its "ground zero" altitude is measured again and is different by 150 feet. How often is its "ground zero" altitude measured? If it's only measured when it's turned on, or when its offset is changed, then it's not an issue, and should shut down normally.

[pchapman 261]

Like Billvon seems to be thinking, that quoted paragraph is hard to interpret. [edit: That's the one in jenn83's post.] It mentions being "airborne", when the manual really means to talk about the Airborne mode. A jumper might well not associate "airborne" with driving to another DZ Saturday night to jump there Sunday.

The Vigil doesn't show that it is in Airborne mode, right? Various LED's flash when it hits the 150 ft level and goes into that mode, but that's all I see in the manual.

Another confusing item is where it says on p 8 that it will calibrate itself to the current ground elevation pressure. They mention it in a section about turning it on, but aren't clear that this refers only to when turning it on, on the ground -- not what happens if you've moved to a DZ at another elevation with the AAD still on.


On other pages, things are more clear.

On p22 it says You must only switch the Vigil® ON only once you arrive at the drop zone to get the correct GROUND ZERO REFERENCE.

(This statement was worded in a weaker way and not as prominent in the old Vigil 1 manual.)

Another useful statement, on p12, is The Vigil® must imperatively be switched ON at ground level of your take-off zone (This becomes the “GROUND ZERO” reference altitude).

(That has also been in the Vigil II manual a while, and in a weaker and slightly less clear form in an old 2007 Vigil 1 manual.)

Parts of these statements are also seen just after the index in the manual (p4).

Every time I look at the manual, I seem to find more. There's something on p21 as well about the Vigil staying on if it doesn't see the original ground zero reference, requiring being turned off and on to get a new reference.


I was going to be pretty critical about the manual based on that one quoted section. That part certainly is poorly written, but there are other parts that try to make it clear what a jumper has to do if going to another DZ. It sure isn't a CYPRES, which has a different 14 hour turnoff logic.

In any case, boot one's AAD at the start of a jump day at the DZ.

[popsjumper 2]

Yes, thank you.

I'd like to see a reference to that offset right there to highlight that. For example, "Note: If the take-off and landing points are different altitudes, you'll need to program an offset. See Page X."

Additionally, why would it be "armed" according to your take-off point rather than your landing point?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239