Intentional reserve pull.

[Tuna-Salad 0]

This may not be the right place to post but....
Myself and a friend did the AFF together and he has been wanting to use a reserve.. why... I don't know. He does not want to cutaway then use one or anything like that, but wait until it is near date to be repacked. He has 84 jumps, is this possible? If he uses a reserve then he will not be able to disconnect from it to get the main out unless he has a knife correct? I heard you cannot make an intentional cutaway unless you have a d license is this true? This would not be considered an intentional cutaway would it? Sorry for all the questions.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[shropshire 0]

Do you want to know :-

What it's like to fly a reserve? - Well you can fit a demo reserve canopy into your harness as a main (PD have a demo fleet that does the rounds - I've done that).

What it's like to chop - you can (depends upon rating I guess) use your clubs Tertiary rig (has 3 parachutes, 1 main + reserve as normal and a 2nd reserve in a belly pack).

Just want to know what the pull is like - you can do that on the ground at repack time (Some riggers will like you to do that - I know mine did).

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[AndyMan 7]

Experienced jumpers will often joke about doing something like this when it's time for a repack, but you should keep in mind that it's almost always just a joke.

It would be very poor judgment for someone to actually do this.

First, it's illegal. The FAR's require us to jump with both a main, and a reserve. If you're going to intentially open your reserve, the jump is illegal since you can not jettison the reserve and open your main.

Second, it's dumb. Malfunctions can happen on any skydive. What happens when he has a malfunction, can't cut away, and thumps in? Who's the smart guy then?


There are special rigs that allow 3 parachutes to be mounted. These rigs allow for an intentional cutaway and reserve deployment, while still having a real reserve hidden away in case of emergency. It may be the case that the owners of these rigs ask for a 'D' license - I'm not sure. I know it's not written in stone.


You can also call up any manufacturer and ask for a demo version of their reserve parachutes. They'll ship you one setup like a main that you can test all you want. You certainly don't need a 'D' license to do this. The manufacturers will gladly send a demo canopy to pretty much anyone.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[NickDG 23]

>>He has 84 jumps, is this possible?
It's called a "funaway" and while I know a few experienced skydivers who occasionally do it, especially the late Jerry McCauley who did it a lot, you're playing with fire.

It's natural to wonder what you'll do in the air when your time comes. It's like being 15 and wondering what sex will be like. (Am I being naive?) And sure, there are ways to simulate sex, but it's never really the same.

We had a special cutaway rig in the loft for a number of reasons, TSO testing, movie work, and so forth, but it got the most use by newbie Tandem Masters, who needed a cutaway for their rating, but at 500 ram air jumps hadn't had one yet.

But still there's a big difference between, "Okay, I'm going to cutaway now." And, "Oh shit! What the hell? Jesus, Mary & and that other frigging guy, I gotta cutaway right now!!!"

But just like sex, when your times comes don't worry, you'll get it done . . .

NickD

[councilman24 36]

Quote

Experienced jumpers will often joke about doing something like this when it's time for a repack, but you should keep in mind that it's almost always just a joke.

It would be very poor judgment for someone to actually do this.

First, it's illegal. The FAR's require us to jump with both a main, and a reserve. If you're going to intentially open your reserve, the jump is illegal since you can not jettison the reserve and open your main.

I hate to encourage anyone but I don't believe it's illegal. The FAR's require a dual parachute, single harness system and prescribe the certification and packing. But no where do they say which one you have to open first. And of course reserves are often used first for aircraft emergency bailouts, loss of altitude awareness and either manual fire or AAD fire, and inability to open/find the main. None of these would ever be considered illegal. You could claim these are emergencies and the rules don't apply, but I have never seen a rule, either in the FAR's or AC's that talk about either which canopy you have to open first or about intentional cutaways needing three canopies.

Unlike someother discussions here I just don't see a starting point in the FAR's to infer you can't open your reserve first.

BUT to the OP, the idea is to always have one more canopy than you intend on using. And to be able to get rid of all but the last one.

Intential cutaways are not normal skydives. They use special equipment that is more complex. I've seen several systems and jumped a couple. Some have the cutaway canopy packed on top of the main container. This means that in order to open the canopy you intend on landing you HAVE to execute the cutaway. I don't like this because I want to be able to abort the cutaway if I want to. Some add a front mount reserve to a normal rig, with the idea of not cutting away the reserve if it malfunctions but hand deploying a round to try to save your life. Still not so good. Strong rents an intentional cutaway rig set up with handles like a tandem for tandem master training. I've jumped this but it adds a level of complexity, you dont' want to land the first canopy (at least I don't) and isn't for a low time jumper.

I've also jumped a rig with a hand deploy PC chest mount first canopy. A two point three ring release that puts you back into freefall with a normal rig. But this rig isn't good for terminal deployment.

Wait awhile, fly a reserve as a main if you want, and then get a "real" intentional cutaway rig.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[jimmytavino 16]

opening a main, then cutting it away, and going to a reserve would simulate the real thing...
but does leave you,, with an unreleasable canopy, and if anything goes south,,,, real problems..

if on the other hand the plan is to simply deploy the reserve instead of the main....
still sounds shaky......
if you haven't yet experienced a terminal speed opening on a reserve, i and likely others, can attest to the fact that they could be considered "slammers"... wouldn't wanna do that,, except in a real emergency ( terminal speed opening). save the wear and tear on yourself.... AND the canopy....

a hop and pop low speed deployment of the reserve, seems much better,, but again.. WHY???

i get the idea, of wanting to fly a reserve, but stay patient and develop the frame of mind,, that when the time comes.....you WILL be ok in following through on your EPs...
if not... maybe stay ground bound.
gotta go...
for some reason....
i have a strong urge to make myself a tuna sandwich

jmy

[popsjumper 2]

To answer your questions directly and to the point...
Yes, it's possible to simply deploy the reserve without deloying the main first (you both should know that from your FJC. Some malfunctions are handled just that way and some emergency exits require that).

No, you cannot disconnect from your reserve unless you actually cut the risers or lines (again, you both should know that from your FJC).

No, a D-license is not requred for an intentional cutway using a tertiary sytem. From the SIM:
"Pre-planned breakaway jumps are to be made by only
class C- and D-license holders using FAA TSO’ed
equipment. [E]"

No, directly deploying a reserve without deploying a main first is not an intentional cutaway.

Now, having said that. DO NOT let "your friend" do that. Just because others have done it does NOT make it a good idea...for anyone.

As mentioned earlier, if he wants to know what pulling the reserve handle feels like, do it on the ground either in a hanging harness or on his own rig at re-pack time. Your instructor will love you for wanting to learn.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[livendive 8]

Quote

I hate to encourage anyone but I don't believe it's illegal. The FAR's require a dual parachute, single harness system and prescribe the certification and packing. But no where do they say which one you have to open first. And of course reserves are often used first for aircraft emergency bailouts, loss of altitude awareness and either manual fire or AAD fire, and inability to open/find the main. None of these would ever be considered illegal. You could claim these are emergencies and the rules don't apply, but I have never seen a rule, either in the FAR's or AC's that talk about either which canopy you have to open first or about intentional cutaways needing three canopies.

From the part 105 definitions:

Quote

Reserve parachute means an approved parachute worn for emergency use to be activated only upon failure of the main parachute or in any other emergency where use of the main parachute is impractical or use of the main parachute would increase risk.

Techincally, I'd say it's against the regs, but as you pointed out above, it'd be damned easy to get away with. A simple "I couldn't find my hackey" would suffice. Still, that doesn't make it a wise idea.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[NickDG 23]

I think the best type of intentional cutaway rigs are the ones that are regular rigs with the addition of a low front mounted reserve.

We had a guy, an experienced jumper, doing a movie stunt once and using the other type of system (the dual three ring set up) for a planned cutaway. The cutaway canopy was hand deployed from the aircraft by another jumper.

And even though he'd practiced his planned actions in a hanging harness to the point of having it down cold he still managed to pull the wrong cutaway handle.

Now he was in a spot. But this is show business. There is tens of thousands of dollars being spent on this shooting, plus his Hollywood reputation as reliable is now at stake.

What would you do?

NickD

[riggerpaul 1]

Oops, I see that livendive said the same things a little earlier. Sorry.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

Myself and a friend did the AFF together and he has been wanting to use a reserve.

It just a another canopy. Its a 7 cell, square canopy from F111 material. If you wanna try one rent a gear like that.

Jumping your reserve not in emergency? You are a dead man walking....

[Tuna-Salad 0]

thanks for the replies. I will show this to him when he comes over this evening. I don't think he had the intention of making a cutaway.. just opening and using a reserve as the first option. I don't know his motivation. So far the answers i've gotten seem to go with what I thought all along as in.. no way to cutaway from a reserve without a knife and that a d was needed to do an intentional cutaway.

I liked how someone added "your friend".
I would like to make it clear this is not one of the.. I know a guy who clearly isnt me.. situations

To be totally honest i do not think he has a full grasp on just how serious what we are doing is. I get the feeling his attitude is more of.. well nothing bad has happened yet and I got away unscathed so in turn i feel he will keep upping the stakes.. jumping in conditions he should not be.. things of that nature.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[NickDG 23]

I wouldn't worry too much about it as I doubt he'll really do it. This is just the kind of thing young men with 60 jumps talk about because they ain't got nothing else . . .

But you seemed switched on - so if you know he's getting ready to do something really dangerous - just walk over and pull his reserve handle. Then tell him, "I just wanted to see what that felt like!"

It's like having a dear friend with a very bald motorcycle tire. The best thing you can do is stick a knife in it . . .

NickD

[hackish 8]

If your friend does decide to do it let's hope his rigger likes a very expensive brand of wine. I trust my reserve to open properly just like I trust my AAD to fire. I only trust them so far.

It's a game of Russian roulette. One gun in a crate has 1 shell in it. Keep trying guns from the box and you will eventually find it.

-Michael

[Broke 0]

I can teach your friend how to pack a real good line over... it may take a few jumps, but he'll get his cut away

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[Bertt 0]

"...using a reserve as the first option..." leaves you virtually no second option. Just adding my vote to the others who have said this is not a good idea.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

So far the answers i've gotten seem to go with what I thought all along as in.. no way to cutaway from a reserve without a knife and that a d was needed to do an intentional cutaway.

I guess you missed the part about:
"No, a D-license is not requred for an intentional cutway using a tertiary sytem. From the SIM:
"Pre-planned breakaway jumps are to be made by only
class C- and D-license holders using FAA TSO’ed
equipment. [E]"

You are scaring me, dude. You obviously are not reading the SIM. Do yourself a favor and get a copy and read it. The very basic question about not being able to cutaway a reserve indicates that you have little to no idea how your equipment works.

Or, am I feeding a troll?

I'll run it by the instructor staff at Z-hills to see what they say.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[stratostar 5]

Tell Him I said to turn off his AAD and go ahead and smoke it on down to 750 Ft (cypres Fire Alti) and yank the silver handle............I'm sure he has not the balls.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[tkhayes 153]

"I couldn't find my hackey" might work with the FAA, but it will not do much for your 'cool factor' around the dropzone.

Especially a dropzone where everyone knows you and your abilities.

Chopping a good main to use a reserve without some planning (like a tertiary rig) is plain stupid and dangerous.

Dumping a reserve at terminal without trying your main is also dangerous. Ask anyone (like me) who has had reserve malfunctions.

Even with the tertiary rig, things can still go wrong - are you prepared to handle deploying a round reserve into a ball of shit or spinning canopies that you may have over your head? ANd have you even flown that reserve parachute before - how will it fly and can you deal with that at your experience level?

There are a lot of questions to ask.

There is a proper way to do it. Planning and the right gear makes an intentional cutaway a load of fun.

Personally I wish everyone would get the chance to do it before they get to 100 jumps. It is a good life experience and answers the question of whether or not you would ever react in a real malfunction situation.

I have watched people cutaway good mains - and I have grounded their ass for showing off.

TK

[tkhayes 153]

Quote

well nothing bad has happened yet and I got away unscathed so in turn i feel he will keep upping the stakes

It's called the '100 jump wonder' syndrome - you know everything already and you are bulletproof. No different than a 17 year old dealing with their parents on life-issues.

In a few hundred more jumps, you realize once again that this shit is dangerous and you can get killed.

Hopefully in between you try a few not-so-stupid things and learn from them without busting yourself up.

I did a BASE jump at 250 jumps and nearly went in, despite the advice of my mentors to not do one. Everyone thought I was a complete asshole. Since I value having friends, I quit doing really stupid shit.

At 600 or 700 jumps I was shooting some video and had a horrible deployment hesitation, lines everywhere, nothing out, smoking through 800' and realized that this shit is dangerous and I better start playing every jump like I can get killed. ('cause I can)

27 years later, I have seen and done plenty. Experience is a great teacher. But no matter what I say - (or anyone else), pretty much everyone will be a '100 jump wonder' at some point - and that is OK, since it is normal.

What is not OK is to put your life in danger trying something that you know little about.

[brettski74 0]

Quote

no way to cutaway from a reserve without a knife

In addition to what everyone else has already said, that statement right there is over-simplifying the situation. I've only had one malfunction and it wasn't particularly violent, but it took me a couple of tries to find my cutaway handle because it wasn't where I expected it to be. If your friend is under a violently malfunctioning reserve, finding that knife may be harder than you think. Grabbing the lines and cutting them may be more difficult, too.

Even if you have a malfunction that's not terribly violent, just something you can't land, don't expect that canopy to keep cooperating as you start chopping lines. The more lines you cut, the less stable it will become. I'd hazard a guess that by the time you get halfway through cutting away those reserve suspension lines you're gonna start having a real interesting ride.

[Tuna-Salad 0]

I think TK knows who I'm talking about in this situation but I'm not naming names. ESP since he quoted "couldn't reach my hackey" which I've heard before from the same person.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[Tuna-Salad 0]

I figured it sort of like betting.. The more you win the more $ you are willing to stake until you bet it all and are totally broke. I couldn't agree more about being unstable from cutting lines either. What probably looked like a stupid post to some is concern for my friend that he will one day do something stupid.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[murps2000 86]

I think the best type of intentional cutaway rigs are the ones that are regular rigs with the addition of a low front mounted reserve.

We had a guy, an experienced jumper, doing a movie stunt once and using the other type of system (the dual three ring set up) for a planned cutaway. The cutaway canopy was hand deployed from the aircraft by another jumper.

And even though he'd practiced his planned actions in a hanging harness to the point of having it down cold he still managed to pull the wrong cutaway handle.

Now he was in a spot. But this is show business. There is tens of thousands of dollars being spent on this shooting, plus his Hollywood reputation as reliable is now at stake.

What would you do?***


Recommend he not get a tandem rating, and, if he was interested in getting one, refuse to go through the cert. course with him as a partner. At least until he could properly use the rig. The Strong tertiary rig (called the tridem) is no more difficult to use then a tandem rig. Yet I have personally witnessed a prospective TI use it in the manner you describe. I thought the tridem was well designed and easy to use, but I do think that one should have a few hundred jumps experience before using it for an intentional breakaway. It does have two more handles than a sport rig and requires a little bit more situational awareness.

[erdnarob 1]

I understand your need to get a reserve ride. To do so, you should do it the proper way provided you have at least an A licence and under the supervision of an instructor:

1) First get a good training and review of your emergency procedures with an instructor and you being in a suspended harness and have an actual fall on a matress or gym mat.

2) that will be a shame to let go the opportunity of not doing a cut away since if you have to use a reserve it will likely happen because of a partial malfunction. Total malfunctions are rare. Then better to pratice a cut away.

3) Get a tertiary reserve connected to dettachable D rings on you rig or have a special rig equiped with such D rings for a tertiary reserve. Note: You always need one parachute more that the number of parachutes you have the intention to use :
* A jump pilot wants to use 0 parachute, then he needs one parachute
* A jumper wants to use his main parachute then he needs two parachutes
* A jumper wants to make an intentional cut away using the main then his reserve then using in sequence two parachutes,
he will have to wear three parachutes (main, reserve and a tertiary parachute).

Doing an intentional cut way early will make you more confident in your capabilities to handle such a situation and more prepared and efficient for an actual malfunction. Get advice from an instructor.

Note: If you really want to experience a reserve ride with no cut away, as some people mentioned it to you, contact PD and jump one of their reserves used as main parachutes.

A bad canopy deployment can happen any time and without any warning. You really should be ready for a cut away and a reserve ride.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.