sprtdth 0 #26 September 18, 2008 QuoteDoes he trust his repack for the full 180, or does he do something different for 180 vs 120 I witnessed one of my repacks dumped that was roughly 900 days old, sub terminal, and it worked just fine. I don't do anything different for 120 or 180. If it ain't right I don't sign the card.CRW Skies Frank CRW Diva #58 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #27 September 18, 2008 Quote From "Urban Dictionary": 3. sepo A name given to Americans that talk a lot of shit, have monstrous horse teeth and complain about everything. HW JRYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #28 September 18, 2008 QuoteBecause the reserve card shows a pack date, not an expiration date.the cards I have show the expiry date (taking into account AAD revision/battery/expiry etc) which IMHO is a better idea than the packing date....scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SimonBones 1 #29 September 18, 2008 The rigger is supposed to keep a logbook for all of his rigging work. Although ones packing card may only list the day it was repacked, the rigger's logbook entry for your rig should say 120 day I+R meaning that he only certified that reserve pack job for 120 days. After that, it's done. The FAA set a MAXIMUM time the reserve can be set for. What is to stop a rigger from doing a repack and logging it as a 90 day I+R (for some AAD reason or whatever). That reserve repack would only be good for 90 days even if the FAA MAX is 120 or 180 days. Right?108 way head down world record!!! http://www.simonbones.com Hit me up on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #30 September 18, 2008 I don't understand where the concept that a rigger says how long his work is good for comes from. The rigger inspects and repacks. The FAA says that must be done again after a certain time. Just like any other aviation technician, the rigger only says that the rig is airworthy at the time he sealed it. He says nothing about what might happen tomorrow. Your rig can become un-airworthy at any time for any number of reasons. The rigger's seal and signature do not in any way affect this simple fact. The user of the equipment is ultimately responsible for not using it should it become un-airworthy or when it passes the date required for a new inspection. Again, this is exactly the same as what happens with an A&P and an aircraft or for any other aviation technician. Nowhere does the _rigger_ (USA) say anything about how long the rig is good for. It is true that some riggers will not repack a rig if a component will require maintenance before the rest of the rig, but that is strictly a personal choice. There are no regulations the require that sort of consideration. It is also true that some riggers will label a rig regarding when another inspection is required, but again, this has no bearing on how long the rig might remain airworthy. It is strictly for your convenience and has no legal weight. So if the new rule comes out and the language says ONLY that a rig must be inspected and repacked within the preceding 180 days, without spelling out which rigs must follow the old rule and which can take advantage of the new rule, the new rule will instantly be in effect for all rigs, regardless of whether they were packed before or after the effective date of the new rule. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #31 September 18, 2008 Barracks lawyers are making a mountain out of a mole hill. When Canada transitioned from 120 to 180 day repack cycles (circa 2000) it was a "no-brainer." Most skydivers just let their reserve repacks "expire" in the autumn, then they reverted to the tradition of a "mad rush before the first boogie in the spring" to worry about inspecting and repacking their reserves. Nor did I hear any of this sort of bickering from Canadian riggers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #32 September 18, 2008 Of course, when that final rule appears it will be a "no brainer". But in the meantime, there are quite a few people who have some strange ideas about how the FARs here in the USA work. Though the discussion began with questions about the new 180 day rule, it sounds a little like you don't think we should try to educate ourselves about the other things that are flying about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ficus 0 #33 September 20, 2008 Rob, If only it were so easy for us here in America. Tragically, our fair nation is home to such destitute states as California and Florida, where skydiving operations roll on mercilessly throughout the entire calendar year, leaving not a single weekend available for ice fishing nor moose taxidermy. Please, before you post again, think of the poor skydivers in Eloy, Perris, Zephyrhills, and wherever else the tyranny of year-round sunshine reigns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #34 September 22, 2008 >The rigger is supposed to keep a logbook for all of his rigging work. Correct. And that logbook is generally unavailable to the person checking the gear, which is where the final decision will get made. Asking three people this weekend at Perris (all of whom are in a position to have to make such a decision) the answers were: 1) all pack jobs get automatically extended as soon as the rule comes out 2) have to wait to see what the rule says 3) they're changing to 180 days? >What is to stop a rigger from doing a repack and logging it as a 90 >day I+R (for some AAD reason or whatever). That reserve repack would >only be good for 90 days even if the FAA MAX is 120 or 180 days. Right? And the jumper would present the rig to manifest and be OK (per the drop zone) for the next 120 days. Hence the issue with the lack of notation on the card. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SimonBones 1 #35 September 22, 2008 Sound to me like whatever company makes those little cards should start printing ones with more information on it. Any idea who prints them?108 way head down world record!!! http://www.simonbones.com Hit me up on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #36 September 22, 2008 QuoteSound to me like whatever company makes those little cards should start printing ones with more information on it. Any idea who prints them? You can print your own and they will be EXACTLY how you like 'em. Allen Silver's cards do have an "date due" - and I find it pretty useful for his clientele (pilots) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #37 September 22, 2008 Quote You can print your own and they will be EXACTLY how you like 'em. Allen Silver's cards do have an "date due" - and I find it pretty useful for his clientele (pilots) I wish EVERY reserve card had that... I can't tell you how many times I feel real bad when a cypres battery or 4year is due in 110 days and I can't pack it because the last 10 days would be "out of limits". The inconvenient TRUTH (sorry Al for taking your thunder) about 180 day repacks is that..... It will be even more of a pain in the ass when a cypres 4 year or battery is closer to it's 4 year date and I can't pack it because now the battery is to expire on the 170th day when under a 120 day cycle it would have been a-ok.... Seems like we as riggers should be able to pack something up and tell the user you can jump it until the last day of the soonest to expire component.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #38 September 23, 2008 QuoteQuote You can print your own and they will be EXACTLY how you like 'em. Allen Silver's cards do have an "date due" - and I find it pretty useful for his clientele (pilots) I wish EVERY reserve card had that... I can't tell you how many times I feel real bad when a cypres battery or 4year is due in 110 days and I can't pack it because the last 10 days would be "out of limits". .. Seems like we as riggers should be able to pack something up and tell the user you can jump it until the last day of the soonest to expire component....you are able to pack a reserve parachute but not print a piece of paper ?? Get some office training and print your card how YOU want... In my country (at least my riggers) have cards which shows the date packed AND the due date (and also for what reason) In a neighbour country (France) they have a separate card for each component, with all installations, mods etc... Seems over-administrative but at least you have an eye on everything.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #39 September 23, 2008 Quote you are able to pack a reserve parachute but not print a piece of paper ?? Get some office training and print your card how YOU want... Office? Is that one of those electronic typesetting machines? I always get confused where to put the paper.Besides for the fact the paper used on modern packing data cards is not traditional paper, it resists water and tears, thus would have to be printed at a printshop, and with how often my friends "wash" their rigs due to the swoop pond - it kind of matters...The real reason I (we) don't print my own - the FARs by the FAA in the USA are very clear as to what is REQUIRED to be on the packing data card. The question becomes, is additional data on the card binding, specifically - if you tell the skydiver the battery expires, does that note or date wash your hands from liability of packing a component that will "expire" in the window of the packjob? Or does it admit fault in writing that you knew the component would expire? Of course, in the description field I could write anything I want, including a "do not jump after" note. However I have two written opposing opinions from FAA DPREs as to if writing an "expiration date" is legally binding and if a rigger can pack something that will expire in the period. We all can look at the FARs, but anytime I have two FAA appointed individuals interpreting the rules differently, it is clear in a court case we would spend a lot of time on the subject... This is what the FAA Riggers Handbook dated 2005 says, and as an official FAA document, would carry tons of weight in a court case or administrative hearing, especially if I could use it to protect me. Unfortunately, it clearly states that if the AAD expires within the 120 packdate including the grace period, then it can't be packed, and a lot of riggers do not allow battery expiration's within the packjob... When 180 days comes about in the USA - unless this document is rewritten, Cypres batteries will be replaced more often, unless the customer is very diligent to pack their reserve on the same cycle as the batteries... And cypres units will be sent in earlier than normal for their 4 years, although that will not add cost to the lifespan of the rig. And - god forbid you have a cypres that is 11 years, 6 months and 1 day old... Since it will be 12 years old within the new 180 day packjob, this document clearly states many riggers will refuse to pack it. Quote The battery life cycle and the unit service life cycle, and how they interface with the repack cycle of the parachute, are very important things to consider. The major question the rigger must ask is: If the battery or unit service life expires during the upcoming repack cycle, should the rigger pack the parachute and seal it, thereby certifying it for the next 120-day repack cycle? A comparable situation would be if an airframe and powerplant mechanic signs off an annual inspection on an aircraft. The mechanic is saying that the aircraft is airworthy at that time. However, the mechanic is not responsible for the future status of the aircraft if the emergency locator transmitter (ELT) is due for battery service during the next year that the annual is valid. That responsibility lies with the aircraft owner. This scenario can be reasonably extended to the AAD and parachute. Generally, however, most riggers refuse to pack the parachute if the battery or unit life cycle expires during the 120-day repack cycle. Some AAD manufacturers have specific rules regarding battery and repack expiration dates. For example, the manufacturer might mandate that if the battery life expires during the 120-day repack cycle, then the rigger is not to pack it unless the batteries are replaced or the unit is removed from the assembly. Regarding the 4-year service cycle, there is a 90-day grace period for servicing. If the 120-day repack cycle expires within that 90-day period, then the rigger may repack and recertify the assembly. If the repack cycle extends past the 90-day period, then the rigger should not pack the assembly with the AAD. In any case, the rigger should follow the directions of the AAD manufacturer for that particular make and model of AAD. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NSEMN8R 0 #40 September 23, 2008 QuoteI wish EVERY reserve card had that... I can't tell you how many times I feel real bad when a cypres battery or 4year is due in 110 days and I can't pack it because the last 10 days would be "out of limits". Why not just pre-date the card to 10 days earlier so that the pack job expires the day the 4 year is due? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #41 September 23, 2008 The stuff you quoted from the FAA manual is ambiguous at best. In the first paragraph they say that we can pack things that will expire during the cycle, and that it is the responsibility of the owner to ensure that required work is done. In the second paragraph they contradict themselves about the required maintenance. I think that the contradiction in two adjacent paragraphs would confirm that the instructions are at best murky. The statement in the second paragraph that "generally most riggers will refuse..." is not stating required practice, but is reporting about general practice. I don't think this would carry the weight of law. I've been looking over my CYPRES documentation, and I haven't found anything that says we must not pack a rig if the maintenance or battery will be due within the cycle. I did find an instruction that you may not jump a rig with CYPRES that is not airworthy. In that case, the CYPRES must be removed before you can jump the rig again. To me this implies that I was allowed to pack it even though these conditions were expected during the cycle. Otherwise how would I ever have a rig with an expired CYPRES in it that might otherwise be jumped? Still, I don't claim to have found everything Airtec said about these issues. So, please, if you can point out instructions that limit our actions, tell me where to look for them. If I am doing it wrong, I absolutely want to correct my actions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #42 September 23, 2008 Quote And - god forbid you have a cypres that is 11 years, 6 months and 1 day old... Since it will be 12 years old within the new 180 day packjob, this document clearly states many riggers will refuse to pack it. Cypres1 has a life of +3 Months past 12 years, so you would be fully legal no matter how you look at the regs. Cypres2 has a +6 month life Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #43 September 23, 2008 >you are able to pack a reserve parachute but not print a piece of paper ?? Sheets of Tyvek are not easy to come by and they don't work well in most printers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites