popsjumper 2 #51 October 24, 2005 I think your point has been made and that many agree with you but you won't get many to agree that it's reasonable nor acceptable in the real world.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #52 October 24, 2005 I would have to say parents not making sure the kids are going to school and then doing there school work. Teachers are some of the most underpayed, and underappreciated people on the planet.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #53 October 24, 2005 For the people who are laying the blame on the parents--what if the teachers and schools are relaying incorrect information? Someone mentioned a hypothetical situation of a teacher shortage where teachers are teaching subjects that are not their areas of expertise. What if the parents DO help and work with their children's school work, but they don't have the correct information, either? _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
j0nes 0 #54 October 24, 2005 QuoteA smart dog knows it's master. A smart dog knows it is master. Point missed? yes piopsjumper, the point... clearly... has been missed by you. "Its" is already a posessive pronoun. "it's" is a contraction of "it" and "is". Your two examples say the same thing. incorrect: The group made it's decision. correct: The group made its decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NSEMN8R 0 #55 October 24, 2005 Whose fault is it then? Maybe it's nobody's fault. Maybe times are changing and the people that care more about how things are written rather than what is actually being said are becoming the minority? If this keeps up, no one will be sure what perfect English is. Then people won't be able to judge us by who talks good and who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #56 October 24, 2005 QuoteThis situation has gotten to the point http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/got.html yet another example of how Americans are bastardising english. We have as many examples of dialecs and accents, creating words, as you do. Have you ever heard scousers talk? how about geordies? or brummies? the only people who do the english langauge justice are the english aristocracy... i'm from the East Midlands, even i've got a different accent to the queens english, we have our own way or saying things, using our own words... and we're English ! it just strikes me as funny to read about Americans going on about correct pronunciation ________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #57 October 24, 2005 Quote Nice try wartload, but apostrophes should not be used with possessive pronouns because possessive pronouns already show possession -- they don't need an apostrophe. His, her, its, my, yours, ours are all possessive pronouns. You first example is correct, the second is not. Both of his sentences were true. It was very subtle humor. QuoteA smart dog knows its master. / A smart dog knows it's master. The first sentence: The master of a smart dog is known by the smart dog. The second sentence: A smart dog knows it is master (of its domain). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #58 October 24, 2005 He's saying that either "A smart dog knows it's (it is) master" or "A smart dog knows its master" are valid sentences (which they are). You really wouldn't know the difference between the two sentences without proper context. A smart dog knows its master. The dog can pick out its master in a crowd of people. A smart dog knows it's master. When the garage door opens, the dog knows it is master coming home. Granted, an article for master would clarify the second sentence, but as someone else established, grammar and spelling are bullshit for effective communication, anyway. _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #59 October 24, 2005 QuoteFor the people who are laying the blame on the parents--what if the teachers and schools are relaying incorrect information? Someone mentioned a hypothetical situation of a teacher shortage where teachers are teaching subjects that are not their areas of expertise. What if the parents DO help and work with their children's school work, but they don't have the correct information, either? You mean like with the case of Intelligent Design? I don't think anyone is without guilt. Students know when they are not making their best effort. Parents have to interactive with their kids, and share an appropriate amount of time with them, so they know what's going on with their children. School boards and administrators are responsible for making sure appropriate material is taught by qualified teachers. Teachers have the toughest job, though. They have to teach, without proper funding, to the average students, while simultaneously giving special attention to the more and less intellectually gifted. All while assuming the parents aren't going to be heavily involved (When they are, it's a bonus.). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swedishcelt 0 #60 October 24, 2005 QuoteQuoteTeached? Teached? Wendy W. (who often edits for grammar, and wishes she could edit others' posts for grammar sometimes) Ack, I cannot believe I did that. Edited ;)Ack. Sigh... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wartload 0 #61 October 24, 2005 QuoteA smart dog knows it's master. A smart dog knows it is master. Point missed? I think that whoooosh sound was a point going right over someone's head, Pops! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wartload 0 #62 October 24, 2005 QuoteHe's saying that either "A smart dog knows it's (it is) master" or "A smart dog knows its master" are valid sentences (which they are). You really wouldn't know the difference between the two sentences without proper context. A smart dog knows its master. The dog can pick out its master in a crowd of people. A smart dog knows it's master. When the garage door opens, the dog knows it is master coming home. Close! The first is correct. He knows who his (its) master is. The second means that a smart dog knows that it is (it's) his own master. He is in control of himself and doesn't have to do what anyone else says. The point is that not knowing the difference in something as subtle as the addition of an apostrophe can completely change the meaning of a word or a sentence. Want to see why it's important to learn how to communicate correctly? Try leaving something like the orders for (police?) officers that were cited earlier, then fire someone for not correctly following those orders, and THEN see what happens when that document gets taken into court by the dismissed employee. What would you think if you went somewhere to take a first-jump course and you were handed a training manual of that quality? What if you had to promote one of two otherwise-equal employees to a managerial position--one of whom could write clear and concise instructions for employees, and the other who wrote like that? Come on. This isn't all that hard to figure out. Why encourage people to "dumb down," instead of becoming more literate? What could possibly be a good rationale for that? If it's not about how smart different people are, and it's not about their ability to improve their skills. What's left (disabilities aside)...laziness? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #63 October 24, 2005 QuoteClose! The first is correct. He knows who his (its) master is. The second means that a smart dog knows that it is (it's) his own master. He is in control of himself and doesn't have to do what anyone else says. D'oh! Duh on me; I didn't even look at it that way until I saw tso-d_chris' edit. That makes much more sense as an example. I guess I was thinking way outside the box on that one. It just goes to show there can be several interpretations if the grammar, spelling and context aren't quite clear. Edited to add in response to the rest of the post: Yeah, what he said! _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wartload 0 #64 October 24, 2005 Craichead - Yours was also correct. It just didn't make the same contrasting point that I was going for. (...for which I was going.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #65 October 24, 2005 QuoteThe second means that a smart dog knows that it is (it's) his own master. He is in control of himself and doesn't have to do what anyone else says. Hey! That's what I said! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #66 October 24, 2005 You are a cunning linguist! _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #67 October 25, 2005 NO DUDE the word is BUMMER Like DUDE you flared too late, BUMMER, now you're ankle's screwed dudeYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #68 October 25, 2005 QuoteI would have to say parents not making sure the kids are going to school and then doing there school work. Teachers are some of the most underpayed, and underappreciated people on the planet. I thank you, Mouth thanks you and the rest of the teachers of the western world thank youThe biggest problem I face daily is not whether I have the ability to teach, it's trying to instill manners and behaviours in the kid in my room so that I can teach them. The parental roles are being neglected by a great many people who chose to give birth to children, but have not taken the responsibility to raise themYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #69 October 25, 2005 QuoteI would have to say parents not making sure the kids are going to school and then doing there school work. Keeping in line with the original post, at some point it becomes the responsibility of the individual to know the difference between words like "there", "their", and "they're". Edit: For example, today I got an email from the director of one of our branches that read: "Your welcome to us the DC office" That's just embarrassing."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #70 October 25, 2005 I'd add "too, to, and two" to your list. It's annoying when I read a sentence like "I told him I wanted to go, two." or "there were to cows" or "he went too Arizona." AARGH. That said, I think it's more the fault of the parents, if we have to blame anyone. Teachers only have a student in class for one year. They have no control over what happens outside their classroom, or before or after a child enters or leaves that grade. I taught junior high creative writing and composition. I had each class twice a week for an hour each day. It is impossible for an eighth grade teacher to get a child up to speed if they're writing at a second grade level. You can't teach them six years of school in one year. It's up to parents to monitor a child's education over the years and to get outside help if necessary. The only powers a teacher can exercise is occasional detentions and phone calls home. A teacher can talk to administration about holding a child back, but if the administration doesn't back the teacher, there's nothing the teacher can do, and if the parent doesn't agree that the child should be held back, the school won't hold them back no matter what the principal says. It all comes down to the parents in the end. The majority of teachers and principals do what they can in the limited time they have with the children. Outside of that classroom time, the responsibility for a child's education falls to the parents. A teacher can't force a parent to get a tutor for their child if there's a problem understanding lessons, or to use rewards and punishment if motivation is the problem. A teacher can't get a child tested and sent to a special ed class without the parents' consent, even if the child is profoundly disabled. The parents have the final say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feeblemind 1 #71 October 25, 2005 Well I would say niether actually! I would say the main cause for the issues with students and education is parents that fail to parent!! I could go on a rant here but will STFU instead. Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rocketdog 0 #72 October 25, 2005 being a teacher i have a HUGE problem with your headline..... what about "the educational faults of" PARENTS who produce/do not support the "faulty" students?! the whole point of writing is for communicating. while it is incorrect spelling/semantics to write "your" instead of "you're" i think you can still perceive the meaning.... can't you? purpose served. do you honestly believe that teachers are to blame for people who 1) did not pay attention in school (therefore, never learned correct grammar) or 2) do not concern themselves with investing in written language? even if there is are scenarios #3, 4, 5..... yes teachers are responsible for teaching the curriculum, but it's like the proverb: "Teachers open the door. You enter by yourself." ~hollywood see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #73 October 25, 2005 QuoteYou are a cunning linguist! _Pm stop watching James Bond ________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #74 October 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteA smart dog knows it's master. A smart dog knows it is master. Point missed? yes piopsjumper, the point... clearly... has been missed by you. Now how the hell did that happen? It should have said: A smart dog knows its master. A smart dog knows it is master. See how typos can get you into trouble? But this has been beaten to death...let's move on to other interesting examples, eh?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #75 October 25, 2005 Quote...For example, today I got an email from the director of one of our branches that read: "Your welcome to us the DC office" That's just embarrassing. No doubt a college grad, eh?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
