Oversized D-bag and hard openings

[mircan 0]

Can oversized deployment bag be the cause of hard openings?

Let me explain...
I jump a Safire 2 139sqft which is packed in a one number in size bigger javelin container. Recently I had 2 hard openings which are not common on this type of canopy. After first time, I thought that it was because poor slider control, but after second time (now being very careful about slider control) I`m 100% sure that the slider stayed all the way up to grommets and was properly quartered. The only thing that I came up with is that the canopy has space to move around in the bag after I put it in (when stowing lines, putting it in container etc.) and that this causes slider to move slightly down the lines thus inducing rapid opening.
Is this even theoretically possible?
I pack a lot of chutes for me as well for the others and nobody had any problems so far, except me.
My new container is coming soon, but I don`t want to get slammed again before it arrives.
Opinions?

dudeist skydiver #42

[peek 20]

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Can oversized deployment bag be the cause of hard openings?

I think a bad would have to be much, much bigger for there to be any change at all in the opening characteristics. However, there might be other things that are changing at the same time that you might check for. A rig is a "system", where one part may affect another.

[mircan 0]

I have little under 50 jumps on that canopy/container now and all except the mentioned two were soft. It`s a Safire after all. I had to upsize my opening altitude because the canopy was open much lower than I was comfortable (hop and pops from 3k feet were a bit scary).
So why 2 hard ones in two weeks? I`m pretty consistent in the way I pack. Just on the last one I did squeeze and press the bag a little more than usual... So i thought of slider issues...

dudeist skydiver #42

[SPAWNmaster 0]

if you are not having *consistently* hard openings, then it is a packing issue. you mentioned you had 50 other jumps on that container/canopy and they were fine so it's safe to say it was something you did/didn't do in the packing process.

ive had a slammer on my very docile triathlon 160. although i was sure i had my slider all the way up the lines, i'm pretty sure it came down just a quarter inch when i was trashing it into the dbag. this was a rushed jump and that's what makes sense in retrospect. your 2 hard ones could be something like this as well...its hard to say.

as for your long openings, saffire2's are known to snivel. try not rolling or tucking the nose and see if that shortens the snivel a bit.

[tdog 0]

How are the line stows? You want the lines to be tight when the bag opens.

How much slop are you talking about? Photos?

I don't think the canopy will slam you with a lose bag. Heck, CReW Dogs and Base jumpers often jump without a bag at all. Slider control is more important than slop in the bag.

[NexGenSkydiver 0]

I have a katana 107 that I pack in a javelin sized for a 150 and I dont have hard openings......

[DougH 270]

I have a Mamba 132 packed into a IconI5 that is sized for a 175 but can fit a 190 if you work for it. No hard openings.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[BMFin 0]

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I have a katana 107 that I pack in a javelin sized for a 150 and I dont have hard openings......

How can you have a tight loop with a container of that size ?

[mircan 0]

I double stow all lines. Standard rubber bands though (on vectran lines).

How loose... Well the bag is pretty "soft". You can squeeze it with one hand to 2/3rd of it`s size quite easily.
I figured it`s probably about slider, but I`m pretty sure that the last time I did not let it move for the whole time until first line stow.
I don`t know. Maybe to tighten rolling of the tail? Maybe this time it was loose...
video of the second one here

dudeist skydiver #42

[Blink 0]

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I have a katana 107 that I pack in a javelin sized for a 150 and I dont have hard openings......

How can you have a tight loop with a container of that size ?

By shortening it I assume?

I was told/read somewhere, that because of the way Javelins close, and the location of their closing loop, that they can usually take a canopy two sizes smaller then the largest one recommended. Whether it's true or not, I'm not sure.

[johan420 0]

i have a Velocity 69 packed in a Vector3 size for 190main...no hard opening

[NexGenSkydiver 0]

make the closing loop smaller.....i will take pictures and put them up sometime this weekend if i get a chance......I think your openings are do to slider or not rolling the tail enough and it coming undone as you fold it or put it in the bag....just my 2cents from my experience as a packer

[peggs82 0]

You said 50 jumps on that canopy/container...was it brand new to you? Of is it used?

If used - maybe out of trim?

Also probable cause of slammers - Tuck tabs (riser covers) opening unevenly. There was a long thread about this...But these 3 posts HERE...HERE and HERE are the best explinations to the tuck tab issue.

The long and short of it is that stiff tuck tabs can be responsible for uneven release of the risers causing hard openings.

Good luck. I had a slammer, once, that resulted in a exploded canopy...That sucked!

[erdnarob 1]

Maybe that would be the time to read the Performance Designs document about their warning concerning hard openings. On this document Performance Designs tells you the factors contributing to hard openings and explain you why.
Here are the factors:
1) Packing method: canopy folding, slider position and bagging the canopy: roll pack is not recommanded, after bagging, "milk" the lines up to make sure the slider is still against the stoppers
2) line stow method (lenght of the stow, size of rubber band and rubber bands or Tube stows in good shape...)
3) pilot chute: Proper size, too big makes hard openings
4) deployment airspeed: smaller jumpsuit, pulling while still tracking, high elevation jumping, not being in spread eagle position: all of those make harder openings.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[mircan 0]

To sum it up:
- the bag size is not the issue,
- tuck tabs are not the issue (the jav is old),
- canopy is new, so line trim is not the issue,
- slider handling probably IS the cause (so must pay EXTRA+ attention),
- must roll the tail harder,
- change rubber bands to microline ones,
- double stow them.

Thanx.

dudeist skydiver #42

[iluvtofly 0]

Do you roll the nose at all?

Also, body position may be an issue as well. I know lately I've have some hard openings. I pack tandems and for other experience jumpers at my DZ and no one has ever complained about one of my pack jobs. However, when I pack my own canopy it seems as though the openings are hard. This has led me to conclude that it's my body position on opening.

[mircan 0]

No, I don`t roll the nose, just slightly push it in the packjob. This canopy, usually have soft and long openings, so rolling the nose is not necessary.

About body position... I don`t know. Last hard opening was with my second jump with camera suit. I`m pretty sure that I was not head down, or in a track or unsymmetrical because I payed attention on arm/leg position that is required when jumping wings.

dudeist skydiver #42

[peggs82 0]

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- change rubber bands to microline ones,
- double stow them.

If your referring to the "small" rubber bands (as in tandem-regular-small)...I don't think that I'd double stow those. Otherwise you might be finding out how hard your reserve opens

[riggerrob 558]

If your referring to the "small" rubber bands (as in tandem-regular-small)...I don't think that I'd double stow those. Otherwise you might be finding out how hard your reserve opens

.....................................................................

If you are referring to the double-wide rubber bands installed on Tandem Vector/Sigma ... it is just silly to install them on solo rigs ... unless you a jumping with a 150 pound rucksack (military humor).

Standard-sized MIL SPEC rubber bands (as installed in Storng and Racer Tandems) were originally designed to work with bulky silk or nylon or Dacron suspension lines. If you wrap them around thin micro-lines, you risk line dump.
Double-wrapping - standard rubber bands around micro-lines - helps reduce line dump, but in the long run, you are better off using smaller diameter rubber bands.

Half-diameter rubber bands will work better with his micro-lines.

[mircan 0]

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Otherwise you might be finding out how hard your reserve opens

contrary to the main, I hope it opens fast.

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Standard-sized MIL SPEC rubber bands were originally designed to work with bulky silk or nylon or Dacron suspension lines.

As I remember, the lines on some old round military parachutes lines were stowed not in rubber bands, but in the fabric-type-zero-elastic-sewn-in-loops (sorry, I don`t know the term in English). And you stowed the lines with metal hook.
So, if the canopy opened with lines packed that way, is it possible for modern canopy with thin lines not to open when doublestowed in half-diameter micro-line-rubbers?

dudeist skydiver #42