bloody_trauma 2 #26 June 13, 2006 I would think that they couldn't count you as AWOL since you have leave and they cant charge you with absent with leave, but they might could get you with disobeying a direct order, look all you need to do is bring issue of your plane tickets vs the formation to your chain of concern/command and they can make an exception for you, as long as they have accountability of you then your alrightFly it like you stole it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #27 June 13, 2006 QuoteThat's EXACTLY what we are all saying. I mean hell, we could really just stand their at the battilon and wait till 23:59:59. As long as we can all sign our names in that one second. Well, we have made up our minds on not being there. Im just wondering if they can actually get us on this one. Is forfeiture of rank and pay worth it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bloody_trauma 2 #28 June 13, 2006 are you positive that that's what they mean, are you sure that they dont want to see you at 0600 on the morning of the 16th? and then you sign out at 0001 on the 17th?Fly it like you stole it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivermom 0 #29 June 13, 2006 Kevin, I know nill about the military. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do, and I hope to catch a jump with you before you leave the country. Stay safe dude!Mrs. WaltAppel All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #30 June 13, 2006 QuoteThe Desire of the Commander. The "wish" or the "desire" of the commander has the same weight as an order. Military law backs this idea to the extent that a person can be convicted for failing to obey an order even though that "order" was expressed in the form "I would like you to do so and so." Do you know the wish or desire of the commander? Is it legal, moral, safe? If so, to not abide by it would be considered disobeying a lawful order. Quote Do the right thing. ~ Spike LeeShit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #31 June 13, 2006 When I was in, I had a problem similar to this, and I complained to my father, who wrote our congressman. Well, this set into motion a chain of events that led to me getting my ass kissed for quite a while. For about a year, whenever I was asked/told to do something "Don't go complaining to congress!" was often tagged on the end. This could backfire, but it was fun watching the dickweeds all the way up the chain jump through hoops. It was for bullshit like this that I left the service. Zipp0 -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jloirsdaan 0 #32 June 13, 2006 QuoteYou are in the Army not the Boy Scouts. You should have read the fine print when you signed up. "They" can do anything they want. Get over it. No disrespcet intended here. But please, please tell me you were or are in the military before you spouted that off.......if you are/were....all is good . If not....STFU Jordan Go Fast, Dock Soft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #33 June 13, 2006 Good points here from several. Here's what I will tell you. If your leave form SPECIFIES what time your leave starts you are good. Since it was at least technically approved by the CO. Technically because I seriously doubt your CO actually read every one as he is technically supposed to. If it DOES NOT specify the time........even if the CO's order contradicts the "policy" set out on the leave form you MUST abide by his order. Why...........commanders are ALWAYS allowed to make a regulation MORE strict but not less. Therefor if push came to shove and you did not make formation you have disobeyed a lawful order. PERIOD. At the least you can end up with a unit article 15 and lose pay and rank and if they want to fuck you............you'll be AWOL and probably charged under article 134, 91 and maybe others. Trust me........I went around the block with "Military Justice" for over a year. It cost me $50,000+ and gave me a lot of gray hairs. It's not worth it. Since you have plane tickets address it to your chain of command. If you bought them before this policy was put out I can only hope that they would help you out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #34 June 13, 2006 QuoteIf your leave form SPECIFIES what time your leave starts you are good. the Leave form counts as an approved directive from your command. Follow its guidelines. If the Command is so backwards as to have signed a leave form that disagrees with a verbal directive, you have conflicting orders.. there is certainly some legal wiggle room if that is the case, but burning your command on this (or any other issue, even when your are 'right by regs') you can expect to be on the "Zero Slack list" for a long while...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bloody_trauma 2 #35 June 13, 2006 how bout this... why don't you go ask your fuckin NCO's what to do, i'll correct myself and sya that you shouldnt be the one to ask your higher ups but your chain of concern should be, I'm assuming your not an NCO because an NCO would not seek out information about such things on the internet let alone a skydiving forum, you know better than to make your own descisions but you already knew you that didn't you? you must not trust your leaders, and would rather ask a private what to doFly it like you stole it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kjarv 0 #36 June 13, 2006 a good first shirt will pull out the UCMJ and show it to ya! Besides, Have you seen the UCMJ, it's bloody THICK, they could up-armor Humvees with that thing. Either way, the leave rules are printed right on the form. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #37 June 13, 2006 I'm a former Army Company Commander. I used to do the 0600 formation to keep people from driving all night in the middle of the night and having wrecks falling asleep at the wheel. The Army holds the officers/NCOs responsible for the safety of soldiers on and off duty. I started the 0600 formation thing after two of my soldiers died trying to make it home between 0001 and 0600 on the first day of leave after several hard days of training. I don't really understand the 1500 thing on the 7th though. But yeah, they can do that. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katiebear21 0 #38 June 13, 2006 Why jump on the bandwagon with the rest of the group? If you'd already purchased your ticket prior to this "lawful order" being given by your commander (and yes, it is a lawful order under UCMJ), why not go through the appropriate channels and get properly excused instead of risking starting your leave on such a bad foot? Unless you're a shitbag, which I doubt you are, your chain of command should grant exceptions to policy. Also remember, your command team, although it might not seem like it now, really has the big picture. There are some things going on in big army right now that you have no clue about that may affect your block leave and deployment - it's happening right here on Bragg as we speak. MOST command teams do what's best for all involved and truly have the soldier's best interest in mind and most will make exceptions as long as they're dealt with reasonably. Strong arm them and they'll strong arm you. If you expect them to be reasonable, be reasonable yourself. Hope that helps! Oh, BTW, I just gave up command last month here in the 82nd and I disagree with their decision to have a 0600 recall. Most likely, they didn't take into account early flights and they just wanted to make sure that everyone got a good night's sleep before getting on the road. They know they can't accomplish their mission at war with one less trooper! Katie Get your PMS glass necklace here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gofast_ER 0 #39 June 14, 2006 I hear what you are saying and will take it into account. It's just getting worse and worse as time goes on. I wont whine here. As for being a shibag.....no I really don't believe I am. Out of the almost 2 years I have been in I have never even had a negative counseling (which is amazing givin the current state of our unit). None of that matters now though. Our 1st. SGT already told us, NO exceptions to the rule. Oh well. Just gotta roll with the punches.I may not agree with what you have to say but i'll defend to the death your right to say it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #40 June 14, 2006 Quoteare you positive that that's what they mean, are you sure that they dont want to see you at 0600 on the morning of the 16th? and then you sign out at 0001 on the 17th? A GOOD commander would make that perfectly clear by actually talking to his men. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #41 June 14, 2006 Oh I just love shit house/barracks lawyers and their words of wisdom. First off, you have received very good information and advice from CDRINF and Katiebear. I can personally vouch for her being in the know since I know her to be an officer and a Company Commander. My advice is to heed what they have said. Now, as a very senior NCO, my question to you is have you used your chain of command to address your issue? If you have not started with your squad leader and worked your way up the chain to your platoon sergeant, then the only one to blame for being as fucked up as a football bat at this point is yourself for failing to use the chain. However, you haven't violated UCMJ yet so you still have a chance to explain your situation and possibly have things work out in your favor. Waiting till the last minute to address this is not the best course of action , so move quick to explain your situation. First sergeants and SGMs are human weather you believe it or not and were once in your boots so they know the deal. Use the chain, explain your situation, choose the hard right over the easy wrong and things usually work out for you in the end. Not showing up is the wrong answer and will get you in trouble quicker than a monkey gets fucked.Do the right thing."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gofast_ER 0 #42 June 14, 2006 ok one last reply and im done with it. I already have a plan of action on this. Well anyway, talking to/using my chain of command. It has gotten so bad here I try to stay away from my squad leader and plt sgt as much as possible. When im around any of them I feel like I have to walk on egg shells to not get screwed. But like I said, I already have a plan of action. Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to give advice on this. I have considered all options. I know how im going to handle this mess.I may not agree with what you have to say but i'll defend to the death your right to say it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jloirsdaan 0 #43 June 14, 2006 QuoteUnless you're a shitbag For a second there I was . Then I remembered when I met Chuck, he told me you were in the Army also. Now I wish I'd stuck around for that beer.... Thats classic Army lingo there . Jordan Go Fast, Dock Soft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #44 June 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteYou are in the Army not the Boy Scouts. You should have read the fine print when you signed up. "They" can do anything they want. Get over it. No disrespcet intended here. But please, please tell me you were or are in the military before you spouted that off.......if you are/were....all is good . If not....STFU 1964/1968 U.S. Navy. Twelve month tour in Viet Nam as a Corpsman with 2/3 Golf Co. USMC. Now that you have spouted off how about you pull your foot out of your mouth and STFU. No disrespect intended, just a small slap to the side of your head to remind you that most of my generation did time in the military.And more questions?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jloirsdaan 0 #45 June 15, 2006 Quote1964/1968 U.S. Navy. Twelve month tour in Viet Nam as a Corpsman with 2/3 Golf Co. USMC. Now that you have spouted off how about you pull your foot out of your mouth and STFU. No disrespect intended, just a small slap to the side of your head to remind you that most of my generation did time in the military. And more questions? Nope, thats why I put "if you were in, all is good". Because I feel the same way. You signed on the dotted line...deal with it. However, it boils my blood when people who have never served try and sit back and spout words of wisdom like that. I'd just had that happen too, overheard a contractor telling a soldier that. And I know for a fact this guy has never served a day in his life and gets paid $150,000 a year to sit in an office and take care of soldiers. However, had his Platoon Sgt just told him to suck it up....I'd have . Just depends on who the comment is coming from. I'll STFU now . Jordan Go Fast, Dock Soft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #46 June 15, 2006 I'm not going to read all the stuff others wrote. Since you asked for opinions from military (I assume ex military is okay with you) I'll give you my two cents. Do what you're told. Quit trying to circumvent orders. Just my HO. My prior service? Special Forces ODA 552 CO B 2nd BN 5th SFG (A) '77-'80 steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #47 June 15, 2006 QuoteQuote1964/1968 U.S. Navy. Twelve month tour in Viet Nam as a Corpsman with 2/3 Golf Co. USMC. Now that you have spouted off how about you pull your foot out of your mouth and STFU. No disrespect intended, just a small slap to the side of your head to remind you that most of my generation did time in the military. And more questions? Nope, thats why I put "if you were in, all is good". Because I feel the same way. You signed on the dotted line...deal with it. However, it boils my blood when people who have never served try and sit back and spout words of wisdom like that. I'd just had that happen too, overheard a contractor telling a soldier that. And I know for a fact this guy has never served a day in his life and gets paid $150,000 a year to sit in an office and take care of soldiers. However, had his Platoon Sgt just told him to suck it up....I'd have . Just depends on who the comment is coming from. I'll STFU now . I can see your point of view. Its all good.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #48 June 15, 2006 If my hubby was around, I'd have him look at this for ya. He is JAG. -Unfortunately, he's deployed. Hey lawrocket is JAG too...might wanna ask him.~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nbblood 0 #49 June 15, 2006 Read post #18 again. It's the best explanation of this particular situation. I live by this very same policy. I regularly allow soldiers to skip accountability formation to make flights that don't fit the schedule. All they have to do is let me know the deal so they are accounted for. It's no big deal. However, if someone just decided to blow it off.....now it's a big deal. This is WAY too easy to fix. If you run into any resistance, let me know.....I can fix this if you can't. Don't skip the formation without your chain of command's knowledge. It's not worth it. Edit: Oh, and read Katiebear's post too. Also, right on the money. Edit: Oh yeah, PM sent.Blues, Nathan If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #50 June 15, 2006 Nope, I'm not JAG. Never was. I WAS a transporter. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
