Packer quality control?

[rehmwa 2]

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This was to start a general discussion and questions about whether DZ's do have quality control in place.

I think it's a great discussion. I'd still have called the DZ in question (I wouldn't have noted it here on the threads, though) and just say "hey, here's what I saw from someone that got packed at your place. thought you'd like to know."

Personally, if I ever hire a packer (rare, almost never), it's someone I know, and only if I've seen them pack. Never a stranger. (But I like rigs and I like packing, skydiving gear is very, very cool - really a great example of top of the line design and engineering and thoughtfulness).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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As far as SLI,
I jump there and it is not even close to being run that way. .....please dont judge a whole DZ based on one opinion.
Thanks..

thank you, I was hoping another jumper from the DZ would set the record straight and offset M's posts on a very public site

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[stratostar 5]

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Believe me, I'm not shy about safety issues. But there is no way of knowing who packed it. I'm not completely sure where it was. But, as above I'm 95% sure is was Z-hills

I wouldn't be surprised if it did get packed at Z-hills, and your right there is no way to know who packed it unless the owner watched. It is part of the risk of using a packer, I guess. However I have posted here before about people I see do the same things these days and some of the stupid reasons as to why they are trying to reinvent the wheel, and that is how that kind shit get's started. It seemed in fashion not long ago to have 3 to 4 feet of lines in the pack tray, with some people I knew.

Some think, hey you got a reserve.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Mozencrath 0]

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As far as SLI,
I jump there and it is not even close to being run that way. There is a certified rigger in the garage as well as one on site at all times. Four at the DZ that I know of. On top of that TI's, AFFI's, SLI's always keeping an eye on things. They are well within the guidelines set forth.
Further, packing classes are given on a consistent basis where I have seen full time packers assisting Instructors with the class. I know because I have given many. I have also been involved with a good amount of brainstorming on proper procedues for student and tandem rigs.
I feel the need to defend, but please dont judge a whole DZ based on one opinion.
Thanks..

Thank you very much. It's one thing to call me arrogant, but for people to start bashing a whole DZ is uncalled for.

[Mozencrath 0]

Your a great example of what is wrong with a lot of paid packers these day's.

(edited to add)

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"I get $7, BTW. And if it's busy, I'll be needing a ten spot!"

[billvon 2,435]

>Does any supervising rigger or DZ have any kind of quality control
>in place? Perhaps spot checking a pack job or more closely watching a
>pack job every so often?

In my experience most DZ's do not have any sort of QC like this; packers (some of whom are riggers, but not most) consider themselves independent. BTW on your list of gripes:

> 40" of unstowed line between the bag and the links.

I see this all the time watching packers. They'll do the first four stows and coil everything else.

>The stows were only about an inch long past the rubber band.

Haven't seen this too often, since it's no faster to make short than long stows.

>The excess brake line was not stowed in the keeper supplied on the riser
>but flapping loose. (It was the packer that stowed the brakes.)

I have almost never seen packers that stow the excess line if the jumper doesn't do it. Indeed, some jumpers at Perris ask for the line to not be stowed.

>The routing of the bridle out to the pocket wasn't as secure as it
>could have been with this rig.

Common as well. I have often had to fix the bridle routing on packers I've used.

[jumper03 0]

As a packer and a rigger I guess I have a simplified view of quality control.

If people are getting bad openings/malfunctions/aren't happy - then they will find another packer.

If a packer keeps packing consistent, soft, on heading openings then he/she will stay in business.

Just my two rubber bands.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[councilman24 36]

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I have almost never seen packers that stow the excess line if the jumper doesn't do it. Indeed, some jumpers at Perris ask for the line to not be stowed.

Bill,

Why would someone not want the extra brake line stowed? Today at least I can't figure out any advantage to having it unstowed. Unless jumpers are concerned about HOW it will be stowed.

I'm not at a 'packer' DZ any never use one. But leaving excess line unstowed, not stowing brake line, not routing a bridle properly... Are these 'acceptable' short cuts in the packing world? I know speed is money but is just enough acceptable?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[stratostar 5]

Get your quotes right. If you have a beef with skymonkeyone has to say to you take it up with him. You got something to address with me then do so, I stand behind my post based on your quoted words!

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Because Quoted PA removed by slotperfect like you have to start being Quoted PA removed by slotperfect for no reason.

Did you or did you not say

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Can you find somewhere on USPA's site that it says that?

AND

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I have never heard that you have to be supervised by a rigger to pack someone elses sport rig....

All while holding yourself out to the public as a packer for hire and posting your statements here make "us" who call you on it being called....

Quoted PA, repeated here, removed by slotperfect

Sorry call it the way I see it.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[ozzy13 0]

http://parachutemanuals.com/


I don't know if this would help anyone but it has a lot of good info.
As far as SDLI"s packers go , They ALWAYS were and are helpful to me and gave me great openings . My thoughts are if you don't like the opening you get from a packer then stop being lazy :)

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[jacketsdb23 45]

I have packed for a very long time. The thing that really bothers me is that newly licensed skydivers get frustrated with packing and would rather have someone else do it so they can get back on the plane. This is dangerous for many reasons but especially for the reasons metioned by the OP. How many new jumpers that pay for packers would know 50% of what was mentioned was questionable? I am not a dedicated packer but will pack for two or three upjumpers and myself during the day. I try to avoid packing for newer jumpers because I feel its important for them to learn about their parachute, their gear, and how things work. I'll take time to help them learn if they ask me to pack.

I personally would love a mandate that said you had to pack for yourself while holding only an "A" license. The packing requirements to get an A license are pretty weak.

I'm borderline OCD with me packing my own shit...so keep that in mind when reading above

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[tombuch 0]

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As far as (that drop zone),
I jump there and it is not even close to being run that way. There is a certified rigger in the garage as well as one on site at all times. Four at the DZ that I know of. On top of that TI's, AFFI's, SLI's always keeping an eye on things. They are well within the guidelines set forth.

The requirement is far more extensive than just having a rigger on the drop zone. The requirement under 105.43(a) is "direct supervision" by a rigger. That is defined under 105.3 as "...a certificated rigger personally observes a non-certificated person packing a main parachute to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly, and takes responsibility for that packing.

That part about "taking responsibility" was inserted after the Notice of Proposed Rule Making (NPRM) public comment period, in response to my specific request, mostly because I didn't want a packer pointing to me and saying I was supervising unless I agreed to actually provide supervision.

When you read the entire rule, and the NPRM comments with FAA responses, it becomes clear that the requirement for non-certificated packers is that there be some level of training, ongoing supervision, and the supervising rigger must take responsibility for the packing. The FAA should be able to visit the site and see actual documentation of what level of training and supervision have been provided, and by whom. If the FAA asked Johnny Packer who is supervising his work and he points to Joey Rigger, then if Joey Rigger confirms the relationship, he had better be able to show through documentation that he has provided adequate supervision to comply with 105.43.

If the original poster was packing for others and was unaware of the regulation, then it would sound to me like the regulation isn't being followed on the DZ. That's not uncommon in the sport today, but it is also illegal, and shouldn't happen. My suggestion is that every non-certificated packer immediately establish a relationship with a rigger, and that riggers make it clear who they are willing to vouch for. It's not a tough process, and there are at least a few DZ's that do it very well (Skydive City comes to mind).

For more information about the regulation, see the link in my first post, or go directly to the featured story at http://theblueskyranch.com/sta/tb11.htm.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Para5-0 0]

I have read all, and appreciate it as well as agree with you. I do not make a habit of speaking for other people or DZ's for that matter, but I do know all parties involved and will look into it further to make sure we are in compliance. And even if we are, it sounds like there is always room for improvement. It is not until something tragic happens, where this gets aired out in a court room, that you realize there might or might not be deficiences.
Thank You.
Not to mention before stones are thrown we should take long hard looks at our own procedures.

[slotperfect 7]

To everyone: I just spent a great deal of time and effort removing PAs from this thread. I did that instead of removing it because I see this as a valuable conversation.

To Mozencrath: I am in agreement that you are grossly under-informed regarding the FARs and Rigger supervision. I highly recommend you spend some time reading the references provided in this thread and comply with them, especially if you are going to discuss your practices in a public forum. Also, I offer some friendly advice: to a degree you represent your DZ here in the forums if it is known you are on staff there. I suggest you think before you post.

To both Stratostar and Mozencrath: the Forum Rules specifically prohibit personal attacks in these forums. Please refrain from trading PAs in the forums - take your pissing contest to PMs and control your emotions when you post.

To Booster_MPS: please don't hijack threads with "related questions." Please start a new post and feel free to refer to or link to the original thread in your spinoff.

To everyone (again): please be careful about judging a DZ's entire operation based on a small list of facts related to one incident, and especially doing so in a public forum.

I am unlocking the thread so this conversation can continue. I spent a lot of time on this one thread, so please keep it on track and free of PAs. I won't do it twice.

Arrive Safely

John

[Para5-0 0]

Thank You,
I want to clarify, this thread is extrememly important and all of the extra articles mentioned should be read. ALL DZ's can benefit from better documentation, not to mention it is the law. Again, unfortunately liability is and will always be an important part of our sport, therefore bringing up deficiencies can only help all parties involved, lets leave out names though. That is the purpose of threads. (Safety and TRAINING)
Thanks Tom your article was informative.

[councilman24 36]

Thanks for keeping it going.

To All:

I DID NOT START THIS THREAD TO INDICT ANY PARTICULAR DROPZONE OR PACKER.

I started to ask a question and start a discussion. Since I'm not involved with packers either as a customer or a supervisor I am interested in learning more about this subject.

Again, I started to discuss some items with a newbie jumper, only to find out it was a professional pack job. I found the pack job less than acceptable to me and wanted to know what others thought.

Please DO NOT either take this as an attack or turn it into one.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

Tom,

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If the original poster was packing for others ...

I don't think you really ment me.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[billvon 2,435]

>Why would someone not want the extra brake line stowed?

Packers: faster.

Jumpers: Not sure. I believe many think it's unneccesary and/or just creates one more thing to snag. Or it may just be the "culture" i.e. few people do it so why should I?

>But leaving excess line unstowed, not stowing brake line, not routing a
>bridle properly... Are these 'acceptable' short cuts in the packing world? I
>know speed is money but is just enough acceptable?

For many jumpers, yes.

I often have to use packers when I am training, and I know a few packers at Perris who do a good job and thus I use them. I stow my own brakes and re-do my bridle routing (because the main flap won't stay closed otherwise) so for me, a packer who doesn't stow excess brake line and who doesn't route the bridle correctly isn't a big deal - but I do want them to use all the stows on the bag, and leave good-sized stows. I know of other people who don't care how much excess slack is in the lines, but do want the packer to route the bridle the way they like it since they don't look at the rig before jumping it.

To me, this problem seems self-regulating. If a jumper does not like the pack jobs a packer does, then they find someone else.

[jumper03 0]

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If a jumper does not like the pack jobs a packer does, then they find someone else.

BINGO!

Scars remind us that the past is real

[peek 20]

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Why would someone not want the extra brake line stowed? Today at least I can't figure out any advantage to having it unstowed.

One reason is that few rig manufacturers have designed easy to use non-Velcro methods for doing this, and of course, everyone thinks that Velcro is evil now.

People would rather accept the additional risk of unstowed excess than install a decent stowage system on their riser.

And believe it or not, there is a "cool factor" to having them unstowed. Seems crazy to you and me, but I know places and people where it exists.

Of course, a perfectly acceptable system can be designed using Velcro that will not damage the lines (unless you try really hard to stow them poorly.) But I guess most people are too lazy.

[hookitt 0]

I haven't stowed the excess on mine for 1000's of jumps and not once did cool occur to me. Odd statement, probably true in a very small selection of people but in the grand scheme of things, internet only.

I'd quit stowing them when velcro attached toggles were common. The most common design used that pile strip to hold the excess. It covered 1 inch of usable surface and it was too far down the riser to be effective any. It also aided in fraying the spectra line

After demoing a canopy on risers that did not have any stowing method, I stopped.

I've never had an issue then again, I look at my toggles before taking them off the risers and after pulling the slider down.

If back then, I'd thought of a better way, I would stow them now but after a while, the thought quit occuring to me.

My single parachute rig has dacron lines and a very good velcro closed excess brake line stowage method. My skydiving rig came with poorly designed stowing method so again, I don't use it.

Velcro is evil to hma, vetran and spectra... period. If your design is a good one, then share it so all the lazy people in the world might stop being lazy ... or cool... whatever.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[peek 20]

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Velcro is evil to hma, vetran and spectra... If your design is a good one, then share it...

Velcro damages many things, but only if the hook side touches it. It is not difficult to sew a couple of pieces of Velcro on risers in a way that prevents this.

I'm not going to open my rig to take a picture, but I shouldn't need to because I can describe it.

Sew a rectangular piece of hook on the back side of the riser, slightly narrower than the riser, and with a height (up and down the riser) slightly less than the width of the pile being used, i.e., 1 or 2 inch.

Sew a 2-3 inch length of pile to the edge of the riser so that when the pile is curled around back it completely covers the hook.

The excess brake line is stowed at the side of the riser, enclosed in pile.

It's really that simple, and unless one is careless when packing, the lines will never touch hook, (nor will anything else, besides the pile!)

Why the manufacturers don't do this I haven't a clue, because if people don't like it, it can simply be ignored, leaving the pile covering the hook, never to touch another thing, forever and ever.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Not me, Tim. I would never jump either of my rigs without the excess stowed. I simply cannot afford brake fires in a wingsuit rig and I don't WANT to have to deal with any more on my other rig with the crossbraced main in it. What do I do? On my Sunrise (Wings) risers the toggles have two sets of tits. The top tit is stowed in the top elastic keeper and the bottom of the toggle sticks upwards into a lower one. I feed my excess brake lines downward through the lower elastic keeper before sticking the bottom-of-toggle tit upward into it to lock it off. It's very secure.

Unlike you, apparently, I HAVE had some brake fires in the past on poorly-designed riser/toggle/stowage setups. The stock system combined with the way I stow my excess is very secure and super simple. Again, I can't afford brake fires, so I make damn sure mine are as secure as possible.

Gary, I cannot envision a place where people actually think it's cool to leave that shit flapping.

I set my own brakes even if I am lazy these days and pay packers alot. When they used to try to beat me to the task, I had to stop them and show them exactly what I expected and why it was a better way than they were using on other rigs. They all get it now and know that I won't accept it any other way.

Chuck

[hookitt 0]

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Gary, I cannot envision a place where people actually think it's cool to leave that shit flapping.

That was my point. It's silly to say people think it's cool. That's internet speak.

Keep in mind, it's not something I suggest to others, it's simply what I've grown accustomed to. This weekend, I'll make a conscious effort to actually stow them.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[diablopilot 2]

You pays your money, you takes your chances.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.