Wings Reserve Deployment

[caribadive 0]

Some people at a dropzone I visited recently claim that Wings containers have an extremely slow reserve deployment, and it is even noticeable from the ground. I was wondering if this is true, or if it is just more brand loyalty and rig bashing?

[Stumpy 256]

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just more brand loyalty and rig bashing?

Bingo!

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[gearless_chris 1]

It is a copy of the "dip your shoulder and dump" Javelin isn't it? Probably just brand loyalty.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[diablopilot 2]

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Some people at a dropzone I visited recently claim that Wings containers have an extremely slow reserve deployment, and it is even noticeable from the ground. I was wondering if this is true, or if it is just more brand loyalty and rig bashing?

I'm no fan of the Wings, but that sounds like alot of bullshit to me.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[freeflydemon 0]

A friend has a wings, that when he opened the reserve in the rigger's loft, for repack, the "reserve PC" with the wing's pop top (I forgot the name in english of it) jumps at 0.6 meter from the ground (with the rig in the ground), so he was asking the same thing around here......

[everymansaved 0]

I heard this from another rigger as well, but I'm still unsure about it's validity. Something about the length of the "hinge" that's created by the reserve bottom flap being an innefective length, I'm not sure if he meant it's too short or too long, probably too long. At any rate, I've yet to really examine one up close, but they sure look a lot like our Javelins, on which the p/c reaches full bridle extension, and tugs directly on the bag when it's popped. The issue could be with the way people are packing them as well. You need to remember that it did pass the TSO testing for reserve deplotment time, as it's packed in the manual. My vote is that it's brand loyalty/rig bashing.

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[azureriders 0]

No rigger, but I do have one reserve ride in my wings container. No problems with the opening at all. And my rigger, although having nothing really bad to say, is not a wings fan either.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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It is a copy of the "dip your shoulder and dump" Javelin isn't it? Probably just brand loyalty.

Uh, the owner/designer of the Wings H/C designed the Javelin (among other things).

[phoenixlpr 0]

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It is a copy of the "dip your shoulder and dump" Javelin isn't it? Probably just brand loyalty.

Uh, the owner/designer of the Wings H/C designed the Javelin (among other things).

I have heard that story a bit different.

One of the designers of the Sunrise Manufacturing International left the company with his/her design taken with his/herself and founded Sunpath....

[lauras 0]

Bad intel.

edit to add a little rant & not a response to phoenixplr: I have 3 rides on the Wings system - all with very fast, very clean deployments. Riggers that whine about how the Wings packs up should give Henri & Marko a call and sort it out. You don't have to be a fan, but puhleeze, if you don't understand how the deployment sequence looks on the ground vs. in the air or can't pack something up to look nice, it's YOU, not the H/C. That applies to every system on the market that's passed the TSO requirements. Call the manufacturer if you're having issues. They really really want to help riggers in the field!

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I can't imagine how that would be possible since Sunrise was created in 1998 when Henri, who designed the Javelin, left the company and started building Wings. That's when Mike Fury sold the company (which built Javelins) to Derek and Pat Thomas. My first Javelin was built by Mike Fury's company in 1991. That's all besides the point though. I have never seen a Wings have a "slow reserve deployment." We used their student rigs almost exclusively at the GB Parachute Club and there are a TON of us at Z-hills (Raeford too) who jump them. We use them as student and rentals at Z-hills as well. They are great rigs.

Chuck

[okalb 78]

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I was wondering if this is true, or if it is just more brand loyalty and rig bashing?

I have 9 reserve rides total. 2 of them were on Javelins and 7 on Wings. I can safely say that the Wings deployment system works as designed. Any rig that passes the TSO will deploy as quickly as required by law if packed according to the manufacturer's specs. If there is a problem, it is most likely with the rigger that packed it not with the product itself.

BTW, there were 4 different riggers that packed my 7 Wings reserve rides and all of them opened perfectly fast.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[phoenixlpr 0]

You should know better. Some people told this story around me.

Most of the student equipment is Wings in our club. Wings seems to be the most popular brand here.

[riggerrob 558]

Just to expand on Skymonkey's version of the story: the Javelin design started as a collaboration between Mike Fury and Henri Pojo... (sorry but I cannot write Finnish) about 20 years ago. Henri was the "artiste" while Mike was the "production guy."

After a few years, Mike left Sun Path and a couple of years later (1997) started Altico (the Dolphin factory). Dolphins are basically simplified, low budget Javelins. Ho hum! You can even install Dolphin reserve pilot chutes and freebags in Javelins, because they started out with the same sizes. Heck! A couple of years ago, Altico was even manufacturing Javelin accessories under sub-contract to Sun Path.

Circa 1992, Henri P. sold his interest in Sun Path (the Javelin factory) to Derek Thomas. The Thomas family has a long history of building skydiving equipment in Britain, but that is a story for another day. I remember Derek Thomas giving us a tour Sun Path's factory - in DeLand, Florida - during February of 1993, which was shortly after he bought the company.

Circa 1998, Henri P. opened Sunrise Rigging (the Wings factory) to build a high-end version of the Javelin with a series of minor improvements that he had learned about while building Javelins.

Which do I think is the best?
I have repacked close to a thousand Javelins and respect the design. At one point (early 1990s) I even wanted to buy a Javelin.
If you gave me a Dolphin, I would cheerfully put a thousand jumps on it.
Recently I talked my room mate into buying a Wings container - to replace his tired old Javelin. That was primarily because he could get a Wings container sooner and cheaper than a Javelin.

[gjhdiver 0]

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Some people at a dropzone I visited recently claim that Wings containers have an extremely slow reserve deployment, and it is even noticeable from the ground. I was wondering if this is true, or if it is just more brand loyalty and rig bashing?

Sigh.....

I've heard this old quote about every rig on the market over the last 20 years. It's a version of the "friend of a friend" type of urban legend, so let me put your mind at rest here.

Any harness/container system's reserve deployment is only as good as the last rigger's attention to procedures when they packed it. In my years in the loft, I have seen every single major container either "table total" or launch very weakly. In all of those cases, the underperformance of the system could be directly traced to either poor maintance of standard parts, replacement of parts with non standard parts, or deviations from correct packing procedures. Most common in this is usually the rigger who has just one pack job that they use for everthing, instead of learning the specific details of important things like bridle stowage for each rig. I've seen incorrect bridle stowage cause more weak launches than just about anything else.

Now as for the Wings, it was one of the first, if not the first, harness/container system to gain a certification under TSO 23d, and if you want the full details of the Wings TSO tests, I'm sure that Henri would provide them to you. Suffice to say here that it is extremelely rigorous, and at the time, no-one had gained a TSO for a civilian system at those speeds and weights. Delpoyment speed was never an issue.

Also, you have to figure in brand loyalty. People love you to jump what they jump for a myriad of reasons, some emotional, some financial, some a mixture of both. You've seen exmaples of that loyalty in this very thread. It doesn't take too much to sour a system's reputation at a drop zone if the resident rigger doesn't like packing Racers for instance.

I'll just leave it by saying that the Wings has no issues with reserve deployment speeds. Like any other system, if it's maintained correctly and packed correctly, it's going to work as designed. I've had many reserve rides over the years, and the fasted deployments I've ever had have been from my Wings.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I was sitting in Henri's office about a week ago talking about TSO testing and he showed me the book for the 23-D tests on the Wings. They did exactly 99 tests.

[AllisonH 0]

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I was sitting in Henri's office about a week ago talking about TSO testing and he showed me the book for the 23-D tests on the Wings. They did exactly 99 tests.

For those of us who don't know much about TSO testing, is doing 99 tests good or bad? How many are suggested/required? Does additional testing mean there was something wrong with the initial testing, or that a company went above and beyond the requirements (i.e. is more testing good or bad)?

[skydiverek 55]

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For those of us who don't know much about TSO testing, is doing 99 tests good or bad? How many are suggested/required? Does additional testing mean there was something wrong with the initial testing, or that a company went above and beyond the requirements (i.e. is more testing good or bad)?

Plus, does any third party observe the tests? I mean, the company could drop the rig 100 times, it would work only 10 times, and note these 10 times in the book, as "it worked 10 times out of 10!". How is this prevented...?

I believe in France it is the government that does the tests, not the manufacturer.

[billbooth 10]

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Some people at a dropzone I visited recently claim that Wings containers have an extremely slow reserve deployment, and it is even noticeable from the ground. I was wondering if this is true, or if it is just more brand loyalty and rig bashing?

Almost all the rigs on the market today will deploy a reserve in about the same time.

[Ronaldo 0]

You must pay attention to leave 1m of bridle free before compressing the PC as recommended by the owners manual (I actually leave a little bit more but you didn't hear that). This piece of bridle should be fold over the side flaps as written on the owner’s manual (not under as shown in the picture).
If you deploy the wings reserve on the ground you'll notice that the only thing that restricts PC launch is the bridle that gets caught under the side flaps. Another tip is to avoid tucking the last folds of bridle too far under the side flaps. This will allow the PC to pull more bridle and reach a longer distance. This is even more important if your canopy is fit tightly.
I have opened my reserve a couple of times (packed by someone else) and the launching was so restricted by the flaps that the PC was hanging few inches above the ground. Now I pack my reserve and get very long distances (comparable to my old Racer).
I’m not a rigger so please feel free to criticize any incorrect information.

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[Glitch 0]

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...Now I pack my reserve and get very long distances (comparable to my old Racer).
I’m not a rigger so please feel free to criticize any incorrect information.

OK and done...

Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

[riggerrob 558]

99 droptests sounds about right for TSO-C23D.

When I worked for Rigging Innovations, I worked on all phases of certifying the Aviator pilot emergency parachute, including writting the packing manual!
After 80-ish drop tests we had completed all the TSO-C23D requirements, but Sandy Reid sent the test jumpers back out to complete 100 jumps so that he could brag about a 99.9999999 percent reliability.
Since skydiving harness/containers require a few more drop tests than PEPs, the 99 drops done on Wings sound about right.

[riggerrob 558]

It comes down to tester honesty.
There are enough gossips in this industry that any failed drop test would not remain a secret for very long.
While the FAA does not require photographic evidence of drop test, I doubt if they would take any TSO application seriously without many minutes of drop test footage.

Quote from an FAA official after observing a live deployment test and video of earlier tests: "I feel like a pig reading a newspaper, but you boys seem to know what you are doing, so I will sign."

[pkasdorf 0]

Mine deployed as fast as possible, no delays!!!!

HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

[Ronaldo 0]

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...Now I pack my reserve and get very long distances (comparable to my old Racer).
I’m not a rigger so please feel free to criticize any incorrect information.

OK and done...

I understand your concern but I'm in Brazil and you don't have to be a rigger to pack your reserve (it just requires a C license). Actually we have very few FAA riggers in the country (none in my state, btw).

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted