Landing direction

[fasted3 0]

Dear DZO's,
Why do we see so many people landing in different directions at your DZ's? Before you answer, let me ask what you use for directions. Do you have a tetrahedron or arrow? Most places I've been have had one or added one. I think they are a great idea. I've been to 15 DZ's, some more than others of course. Having used a windsock only, I know it can be safely done without a more idiot proof indicator, but having been an idiot myself a time or two, I'm for making it simple.
Being more idiot proof isn't doing the job either apparently, given the number of collisions and near misses I've seen, even with my relatively short experience, and the incidents forum speaks for itself. A lot of times there was an arrow but people didn't follow it. Why not, and what can you and we do about it?
First let's look at some reasons it happens. I'd say number one is low wind days. The windsock and flags say one thing, the arrow another. First jumper down compounds the problem even more as everybody does what they think is best, and follows whoever went that way. If we were planes we would expect to know which direction to land in a clear way, and know the other planes wouldn't be going the other way. The airport makes the rules and the planes follow them. So if the arrow is the rule, it is your job as a DZO (air control manager,) to make sure the arrow is pointing in the right way for me to land, and my job for me to do it. On low variable wind days, everybody should be able to trust the arrow, even if that means a person assigned to hold it when a load is coming down. The same person can watch for anybody who doesn't follow the arrow and set them straight or ground them.
Of course there should be flexibility for swoopers and different DZ layouts, but my main suggestion is to get away from 'chase the windsock' chaos that seems to happen at good, safety oriented DZs on a regular basis. Boogies are worse. I think that it should be clearly indicated in the main landing area what direction people will land.
Another reason is improper education, it is the jumper's responsibility to find out what they need to know when jumping at your DZ; I agree with that. Are you making it as clear and simple as possible? Big maps with arrows on them are nice. Are the rules clearly posted? Are you doing everything possible to protect the people that follow them by watching out for the ones that don't?
This is not directed at any one place, and perhaps irrevelent at your's, dear DZO. If so, I commend you and invite you to share what works for you.
Others are also invited to think about other reasons and solutions and comment on mine.
I think this is a problem area that can be improved.

But what do I know?

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Bravo for opening this discussion!

I haven't travelled to vary many other DZs, but I have often found the quality of the "visting jumper briefing" to be REALLY poor.

It would be great if DZs typed out the essential orientation info, with an aeiral photo of the DZ and made it available to visiting jumpers.

The very best orientation I have seen is this:

http://www.jumpjax.com/brief.html

It is too bad that more DZs don't make a similar resource available.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[skybytch 259]

Quote

So if the arrow is the rule, it is your job as a DZO (air control manager,) to make sure the arrow is pointing in the right way for me to land

I can see the value in that for big ways, where a certain canopy experience level is expected. But for the average weekend day at the average dz? Or for a boogie? Don't see it working so well.

What if the wind direction changes while people are landing? Should the arrow be changed as well? What if it isn't changed and someone gets hurt landing downwind? What if it is changed and two canopies collide? Far too many openings for liability for the dz and the person tasked with pointing the arrow.

Why not be a big grown up skydiver and determine for yourself which way you want to land? Don't like the direction others are landing in the main landing area? Land elsewhere. Speak up and preplan a landing direction with the others on your load - before you get on the airplane. Fly your canopy such that no one else will be on final when you are and it shouldn't be an issue anyway. Refuse to be in the air with people that you know are sketchy under canopy, or in chaotic situations (ie boogies).

Am I responsible for my safety or not? I think I am, and that includes choosing the place and direction that I think is the safest for me to land.

[fasted3 0]

Great points. Let me give them a shot.

I can see the value in that for big ways, where a certain canopy experience level is expected. But for the average weekend day at the average dz? Or for a boogie? Don't see it working so well.
Why? Because the jumpers wouldn't understand the rule, or because they would ignore it? I think this is doable just by assigning one guy to hold the arrow on variable wind days and watch people land. Usually there is somebody out looking anyway.

What if the wind direction changes while people are landing?
That is for the person holding the arrow to decide, based on whether people are committing to landing or not. Once they are the arrow should remain in place.

What if it isn't changed and someone gets hurt landing downwind?
On a light wind day? That is the only time this would come into play, and people coming in to the main landing area should be able to deal with a light downwinder anyway. What if 2 people collide? They get hurt too.

Far too many openings for liability for the dz and the person tasked with pointing the arrow.
Perhaps, but my points were made more to avoid collisions than lawsuits.

Why not be a big grown up skydiver and determine for yourself which way you want to land?
Because when I'm landing in the main landing area at most DZ's I don't get to choose the landing direction. I do the adult thing and follow the rules. Of course I can land somewhere else; I often do. I said I've seen this happening, not that I participated in it.

Speak up and preplan a landing direction with the others on your load - before you get on the airplane.
Hmm, didn't you just call me on what if the wind changes while people are landing? What happens if it changes in the 20 minutes that will elapse before you land?

Fly your canopy such that no one else will be on final when you are and it shouldn't be an issue anyway
Yep, just trying to add a link to the chain of safety.

Refuse to be in the air with people that you know are sketchy under canopy, or in chaotic situations (ie boogies).
Sounds like good advice. Probably won't be following it.

Am I responsible for my safety or not? I think I am, and that includes choosing the place and direction that I think is the safest for me to land.
I agree. If you and I both choose to land in the main landing area may we both be going in the same direction?

But what do I know?

[Fast 0]

Quote

Why not be a big grown up skydiver and determine for yourself which way you want to land? Don't like the direction others are landing in the main landing area? Land elsewhere. Speak up and preplan a landing direction with the others on your load - before you get on the airplane. Fly your canopy such that no one else will be on final when you are and it shouldn't be an issue anyway. Refuse to be in the air with people that you know are sketchy under canopy, or in chaotic situations (ie boogies).

Am I responsible for my safety or not? I think I am, and that includes choosing the place and direction that I think is the safest for me to land.

You have semi-valid points, however, as time continues on we are proving over and over again that this method, the way it has been for quite some time now, isn't working. People keep running into one another and getting killed.

I see a lot of crazy shit, especially at boogies. The best experience I had was recently at a DZ that does employ an arrow in the main landing area. "Land that way, or land somewhere else or stop jumping" seemed to be the motto.

On light wind days people consistently do fucked up shit. So no, I don't think people are capable of determining for themselves which way to land. I might be able to, some others might too, it's everyone else that I'm worried about and to be honest, I think it's more people than not who are doing fucked up shit landing on light wind days.

Taking responsibility for oneself is one thing, mass chaos and everyone else deciding they are going to do whatever they want is a totally different thing.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[fasted3 0]

Thanks!
The presentation you provided is a great example of educating jumpers. The DZ should be commended on it, and it could be well implemented anyplace.

But what do I know?

[wmw999 2,122]

One big difference between most airports and DZs is that runways only have two directions, and DZs have an infinite number. Also, because a runway is kind of skinny, desire for immediate self-preservation makes it obvious that most people can't just go for it. But most DZs have wider landing areas than that, and many canopies can land at once.

If an airplane comes in at the wrong end of the runway, in most airports where it isn't busy that means that no one else will land until everyone is sure -- airplanes can keep circling until they're damn good and sure that the direction is certain. Most parachutes can't do that.

I think that providing a landing area briefing with the waiver would be a good start; having it be somethign that can be torn off, and another block to initial on the waiver, is probably even better.

Nothing will guarantee that everyone will read it, and that there won't be any more accidents. But making it easier for people to do the right thing means that lazy but well-meaning folks are more likely to do the right thing.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[grimmie 173]

Landing patterns will improve when people stop throwing their brains out with their pilot chutes.

You can explain landing patterns and directions all day long, but some jumpers just don't get it, or think they are too cool to follow the crowd.

Another reason for horrible landing patterns is the silliest reason of them all. So many jumpers can't stand up a landing into the wind that a no wind or small down wind landing terrifies them. Stand on the ground during a busy day, you can pick out the jumpers that have "windsock fixation".

I agree with you guys about briefing the landing patterns to everyone, but like I always say...

"You can always tell a skydiver, but you can't tell them much."

[piisfish 135]

Quote

Do you have a tetrahedron or arrow?... idiot proof indicator, but having been an idiot myself a time or two, I'm for making it simple.

don't forget the arrow means different things for different ptople.... sometimes landing direction (land With the arrow), sometimes wind direction (against the arrow).

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[fasted3 0]

Quote

The best experience I had was recently at a DZ that does employ an arrow in the main landing area. "Land that way, or land somewhere else or stop jumping" seemed to be the motto.

Thanks for your reply. Same here on this being the method that I've seen work best. The only thing I would add to it is somebody to hold the arrow if necessary to make sure it's not wobbling around at landing time and is pointing at a preferred direction that will work best for everbody.
Other methods that work well at getting everybody landing the same way, ie: land this way or else, can lead to ugly downwinders, especially at places where the wind can be quickly variable. Even then, IMO, once a direction is selected then the safest choice is to land that way or somewhere else. If that direction is selected as soon before landings as practical, I think you would get good results. Those landing in the main area should have the skill to land safely even somewhat off the wind line or they shouldn't be landing there anyway, especially on a light and variable day. Many days the wind is dependable and the arrow does not require close monitoring. On no wind days it could be locked. If that is a feature of those things. If so, it should be monitored carefully when locked as well, if in use and the conditions change.
I've seen landing directions 180 degrees apart too many times. It's worked almost every time. The less it happens, the less times it won't work.
Is holding the arrow once in a while really that hard to do? If adopted as a standard and it worked, would it be negligent to not do it? I don't know if it's a great idea or not, but I've seen enough crazy shit too, and would like to see less. A big giant arrow that says land this way dumbass, or else, would have done some good at least a few times that I know of. A fairly low collision that I saw had bad results, and at least one close call would have been 2 dead for sure. My worst moment has been a near miss at a boogie. Flying the right direction.
That gives me a stake in this game, or made me realize better that I have one, and find this to be something that gets a lot of complaints but no resolution. We still are arguing about first man down! I'm throwing this out there because I've seen the present system not work.

But what do I know?

[fasted3 0]

Quote

don't forget the arrow means different things for different ptople.... sometimes landing direction (land With the arrow), sometimes wind direction (against the arrow).

Good one, and well worth repeating. By all means find out what the thing means! I learned with a windsock and discovered that tetrahedrons work the opposite way than I expected when I encountered one at Eloy. Luckily for me the wind was only blowing about 20 mph.
Also, at 35 jumps I was a seasoned veteran
More importantly, I was real good at PLF's,
Sorry for hijacking my own thread, but I did learn an important lesson in surviving that downwinder: It could be worse. I'd rather do one any day than take out anyone else.

But what do I know?

[tombuch 0]

Landing direction is a constant problem. When I was S&TA at The Ranch I wrote an article for our web site about the topic. It first went on-line in 2003, but remains relevant today. It is partially specific to The Ranch, but you will find plenty that applies to other DZ's, and some pretty good discussion and illustrations about how to avoid collisions.

The article is still on-line, and is listed as "Article 12, Landing Direction Defined" at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php. I hope it helps with understanding of the issue.

If you are not familiar with the site, take a look around...there are some other interesting articles, but none have been updated since mid-2008.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[skybytch 259]

Quote

What if it isn't changed and someone gets hurt landing downwind?
On a light wind day? That is the only time this would come into play, and people coming in to the main landing area should be able to deal with a light downwinder anyway.

People coming in to the main landing area should be able to fly a predictable pattern too. Doesn't mean it always happens. What if it's the guy with 50 jumps and a brand new 1.2 loaded canopy who has just been given clearance to land there? If he got hurt, he'd have a pretty good point in saying "hey, you TOLD me to land that way!"

Quote

What if 2 people collide?
They get hurt too.

So you're not okay with people colliding when there isn't an arrow but you are okay with people colliding because there is an arrow? I'm confused.

Quote

Far too many openings for liability for the dz and the person tasked with pointing the arrow.
Perhaps, but my points were made more to avoid collisions than lawsuits.

You're asking the dzo to take responsibility for the landing direction on every load. Avoiding collisions is a fantastic goal, but if you'd like the dz to be around for awhile, you should also be concerned with how what you are proposing could be used against the dropzone by a lawyer.

Quote

Speak up and preplan a landing direction with the others on your load - before you get on the airplane.
Hmm, didn't you just call me on what if the wind changes while people are landing? What happens if it changes in the 20 minutes that will elapse before you land?

Would it be difficult to discuss those situations prior to boarding as well?

Quote

Refuse to be in the air with people that you know are sketchy under canopy, or in chaotic situations (ie boogies).
Sounds like good advice. Probably won't be following it.

Then you don't get to bitch when that choice is the first link in the chain that gets you hurt.

I guess I really have become an old fart. Freedom of choice matters (those safety recommendations are unrealistically conservative anyway), but personal responsibility is rapidly going the way of the F111 7 cell.

[brettski74 0]

Quote

I can see the value in that for big ways, where a certain canopy experience level is expected. But for the average weekend day at the average dz? Or for a boogie? Don't see it working so well.

Actually, I've seen this exact approach work extremely well at a relatively busy dropzone running at times, multiple turbine aircraft. I've been there on busy weekends, quiet weekends and during two boogies. The landing direction there is always indicated by a large, orange, canvas triangle, perhaps 40 feet by 10 feet, in the middle of the main landing area. It is set by the DZSO throughout the day as required. That said, there are a few conditions at this dropzone that I think would need to be met elsewhere for it to work as well.

The main landing area is relatively large, but much longer than it is wide and as a result, the direction in the main landing area is always one of two directions, parallel with the length of the main landing area.

There is a large student landing area behind the main landing area and another large alternate landing area on the other side of the runway. If you don't like the main landing area or the indicated landing direction, you land in either of those.

The DZSO is a dedicated staff member responsible for the landing direction, among other things, and is not jumping while acting as DZSO.

Landing direction infractions are enforced. First infraction is a carton of beer. Multiple infractions will get you grounded.

I don't think this approach would work well where the DZSO, S&TA or whoever is responsible for setting landing direction was also busy jumping as an instructor, tandem master or fun jumper. I don't think it's worth the effort unless you're at least flying a caravan or larger aircraft. For smaller aircraft, while there's still the possibility of collisions and such, the lower number of canopies makes it much less of a problem. I also don't think it would work terribly well anywhere where the landing direction is not limited to one of two directions.

I do think that a large canvas arrow or triangle on the ground works better as an indicator of landing direction than a windsock or even a tetrahedron. It's impossible to misread due to your viewing angle, although it's still possible to have a brain malfunction.

Quote

What if the wind direction changes while people are landing? Should the arrow be changed as well?

The landing direction is set per load. If people are already setting up for their pattern, it's too late to change. Change it for the next load.

Quote

What if it isn't changed and someone gets hurt landing downwind?

You agreed to jump according to dropzone rules when you signed the waiver and got on the plane. Besides, if you don't like the landing direction in the main landing area, you are welcome to land in whatever direction you like in the student or alternate landing areas. If you landed downwind in the main landing area and got hurt, that was your choice.

Quote

What if it is changed and two canopies collide?

Changing the landing direction while canopies are already in the pattern and landing defeats the purpose of having a reliable landing direction indicator. See above. If people are set up for their pattern and/or landing, you don't change the landing direction until everybody's down.

Quote

Far too many openings for liability for the dz and the person tasked with pointing the arrow.

People love to pull this one out. Have you heard of negligence? If you're worried that an industrious lawyer can come along and try to blame you for indicating the landing direction you should be just as worried that some industrious lawyer will come along and cite negligence on your part for not providing the safest possible environment for your customers to skydive. Have an alternate where the landing direction is open. Now it's their choice whether to land downwind or land their own way in the alternate.

Quote

Why not be a big grown up skydiver and determine for yourself which way you want to land?

Because grown up skydivers can get it wrong. Besides, no matter where you jump, the dropzone *does* set rules dictating how the landing direction is set, so like it or not, you've already taken responsibility for the landing direction. Not having some kind of consistent rule for landing direction at a dropzone would be asking for trouble. As a grown up skydiver, you don't decide on your landing direction. You look at the available indicators and use them to figure out how best to follow the dropzone rules, whether that be first man down, tetrahedron, windsock or whatever else.

Quote

Speak up and preplan a landing direction with the others on your load - before you get on the airplane.

Already been said, but if the wind direction can change while people are in the pattern, it sure as hell can change during the 20 minutes or so between wheels up and canopies down.

Quote

Fly your canopy such that no one else will be on final when you are and it shouldn't be an issue anyway. Refuse to be in the air with people that you know are sketchy under canopy, or in chaotic situations (ie boogies).

Nice in theory, but not always compatible with other goals in the sport, such as if I'm into bigways, I'm going to have to accept some degree of ordered chaos when landing with 100 other canopies. Having a better plan for indicating landing direction is essential there. At all the P3 events, they have someone designated to hold the tetrahedron for all landings. If they're sure that this is a better and safer way to ensure everyone lands in the same direction, why are you so adamant that it can't work anywhere else or in less chaotic situations? Your point seems to be all about liability, which really doesn't hold water. You can be held liable for negligence, too.

[GaryRay 0]

Quote

Bravo for opening this discussion!

I haven't travelled to vary many other DZs, but I have often found the quality of the "visting jumper briefing" to be REALLY poor.

It would be great if DZs typed out the essential orientation info, with an aeiral photo of the DZ and made it available to visiting jumpers.

The very best orientation I have seen is this:

http://www.jumpjax.com/brief.html

It is too bad that more DZs don't make a similar resource available.

it sucks, they say Marines guard it but have a picture of a soldier, FAIL!

JewBag.
www.jewbag.wordpress.com

[labrys 0]

Quote

don't forget the arrow means different things for different ptople.... sometimes landing direction (land With the arrow), sometimes wind direction (against the arrow).

I'm guilty of that. I learned to jump at an "eat the carrot" DZ and the first time I jumped at a DZ with a tetrahedron I knew what I was supposed to do... then I did the opposite anyway.

I broke my foot AND got grounded. Felt like I lucked out on both counts.

Owned by Remi #?

[skybytch 259]

Quote

Have an alternate where the landing direction is open. Now it's their choice whether to land downwind or land their own way in the alternate.

Which is no different that what I suggested above when there isn't an arrow to follow...

[brettski74 0]

Quote

Which is no different that what I suggested above when there isn't an arrow to follow... [Crazy]

Except that there isn't an arrow to follow in the main landing area.[Crazy]

[Baksteen 84]

The problem is that most people in this thread are assuming that ALL skydivers use their common sense while landing.

The real question is: what can we do to protect ourselves against the skygods?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[virgin-burner 1]

stop skydiving, no one can take you out anymore..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

The real question is: what can we do to protect ourselves against the skygods?

Golf or bowling. Its up to you.

[piisfish 135]

Quote

stop skydiving, no one can take you out anymore..

until you meet VB and you try to outdrink him

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Baksteen 84]

Re: the first two replies to my post, I call

BULLSHIT.

Other people cannot behave themselves in the plane, in freefall or under canopy = the people who try to should quit skydiving?

If your attitude would really be like that, it would tell me more than enough about your behaviour.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[virgin-burner 1]

Quote

Quote

stop skydiving, no one can take you out anymore..

until you meet VB and you try to outdrink him

that aint NEVER gonna happen!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[piisfish 135]

what ? that we meet ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM