Too high on final - what are you going to do?

[strop45 0]

A couple of recent incidents appear to have been the result of jumpers making bad decisions when too high on final. IMO, this can be a major problem for jumpers with lower levels of experience for a range of reasons:

1) Lower wing loading and lower airspeeds means that ground track is more affected by wind speed.
2) Generally less tools and techniques available to correct the problem.
3) Less experience means that the problem is often identified late giving less time for plan B.

I watched a jumper with 50 jumps come in too high heading for a hanger. He turned late, did a 180 and hit the ground at the same time as his canopy. If he had stopped his turn at 90 degrees, he would have had time to flare and land.

I don't remember getting any training or advice on what to do when too high, just don't turn low....

What's your advice to a low time jumper who finds that they are to high and running out of room...heading to trees, fences, building etc...

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[peek 20]

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What's your advice to a low time jumper who finds that they are to high and running out of room...heading to trees, fences, building etc...

It depends on how serious the situation. Most of the time, if a person remains calm and makes small corrections, perhaps including braked turns, they can land quite close to an obstacle and be just fine.

If the winds are high enough, deep brakes can steepen the glide slope, and that might be all they need, but this only works if the person knows the stall point of their canopy, does not exceed it, yet holds brakes very close to that point to achieve sink instead of float. Few people know how to do this, and fewer practice it.

[Chubba 0]

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3) Less experience means that the problem is often identified late giving less time for plan B.

I suffered from this a lot, it's been corrected now though by cranking out hop n pops on canopy days.

I still see it every load though on weekends, new jumpers sitting at 600ft on final and they're already starting to head over target.

Plenty of time and space to do 45's/90's and still have heaps of altitude for safety.

We're only a C182 DZ, if you're heading for a hangar or a bad situation, the CI won't bust your balls over a few S turns. They hold steady though till they're out of options, then it ends up nasty.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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A couple of recent incidents appear to have been the result of jumpers making bad decisions when too high on final. IMO, this can be a major problem for jumpers with lower levels of experience for a range of reasons:

1) Lower wing loading and lower airspeeds means that ground track is more affected by wind speed.
2) Generally less tools and techniques available to correct the problem.
3) Less experience means that the problem is often identified late giving less time for plan B.

I watched a jumper with 50 jumps come in too high heading for a hanger. He turned late, did a 180 and hit the ground at the same time as his canopy. If he had stopped his turn at 90 degrees, he would have had time to flare and land.

I don't remember getting any training or advice on what to do when too high, just don't turn low....

What's your advice to a low time jumper who finds that they are to high and running out of room...heading to trees, fences, building etc...

The best way to 'fix' this situation is to avoid it. (just like a two-out situation)

The USPA SIM has instruction on this under Cat F.
reproduced in part here:

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3. Recognizing and adjusting for minimum descent and maximum glide path:

a. Look ahead to the point on the ground that appears not to rise or sink in your field of vision.

(1) Everything before that point appears to fall.

(2) Everything beyond it appears to rise.

(3) That point is the projected landing point on the canopy's current glide slope.

b. Pull the toggles down slightly to see if the stationary point moves farther away.

(1) If so, the glide slope has flattened.

(2) The canopy will cover more distance.

c. Repeat until the point begins to move closer, then return to the maximum glide position that you have just determined.

But this paragraph should be reworked to something like 'determining glide path and projected landing point' and include mention of slow flight.
The principle is the same for slow flight that you may need to avoid an obstacle.

Learning how to see the projected landing point (PLP) is critical to all landings.
PLP is also known as the 'accuracy trick', 'stationary point' and 'destination point'.
Those terms have been omitted from USPA doctrine because it is not a 'trick' or stationary.
The PLP may move as you descend thru doglegs or change control input.

Get-Home-itis was written because a lot of people crashed and burned because they did not know about the PLP. People still do not know about the PLP today. Lack of that knowledge can kill you.

Slow flight is another great skill to have. Each canopy/jumper configuration will fly slightly different. Everyone should know what their set up will do. There is a short explanation on pg 57 of the July Parachutist about this.
You can also get a steeper flight with front risers, but that is not something that every jumper can do for the required amount of time/distances.

I can easily name +10 friends that hurt or killed themselves because they did not know slow flight. They hammered in because all they knew was speed, speed and more speed - nothing about flying slowly.

Go out and try slow flight - up high and use smooth toggle inputs.
Know where the stall point is and the 'twitchiness' of your canopy.
Rectangular planforms can actually fly backwards. This was a standard 'fooling around' thing to do way back when.
Elliptical planforms tend to collapse and never stabilize to a backwards flying configuration.

I do not recommend s-turns because of the collision hazard it poses.

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Make It Happen
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DiveMaker

[AggieDave 6]

What is the outcome to going too far? Walking further or striking an obstacle? Walking further is easy to fix. Simply land safely and adjust your pattern accordingly. Avoiding an obstacle is easy as well, although people are scared of it. Firstly, recognizing that you are headed towards the obstacle early is a plus, but a minor correction or a flat turn can save the day.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[erdnarob 1]

Instructors should put more emphasis on teaching the flat turn method. When too high for the target, flat turns of 180 degrees (right then left repeatedly) before the target is a good way to get lower without progressing toward the target while maintaining a low rate of descent. Flat turn is made by first slowing down the canopy by bringing the toggles to the shoulders then for a right turn for instance, lift up the left toggle and when the turn is completed get back to the shoulders with the left toggle again and get ready for a flat turn to the left. It is of prime importance to plan your approach as soon as 1500 ft. You are the pilot of a machine and you should behave like a pilot just like flying an airplane. Early wind penetration check and use of the angle of descent method are also important to master and should be explained to beginers. The angle of descent method is the following : when approaching the target from say 1000 ft find out visually the point( in front of you) not moving. If that point is before the target you will land too short, if the point is behind the target you will land too long. But have a instructor you trust to explain those methods and do practice.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[davelepka 4]

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What's your advice to a low time jumper who finds that they are to high and running out of room...heading to trees, fences, building etc...

There is no cookie-cutter answer to this question, because as mentioned before, there are too many variables that greatly influence the proper actions.

The one step that is very simple, basic, and can be accomplished on the ground, with no pressure or risk of injury, and that is to prepare a flight plan that includes an unobstructed over-run area for final apporach and your intended touchdown point.

There is no reason that a student or low time jumper should be flying their final apporach into a 'box canyon'. There will always be an alternative final approach, even if you have to plan for a crosswind landing, in which there is no 'end' to the approach.

Along similar lines, the upwind portion of the final approach should be clear of obstacles as well. The rule of thumb is "Don't fly over anything you don't want to land on", and we could easliy add, "Don't fly toward anything you don't want to hit".

[ryan_d_sucks 0]

I would just toggle whip a quick 360 or two. That's safe, right?

[DarinQ 0]

Cutaway.

[popsjumper 2]

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Instructors should put more emphasis on teaching the flat turn method. When too high for the target, flat turns of 180 degrees (right then left repeatedly) before the target is a good way to get lower without progressing toward the target while maintaining a low rate of descent.

OK...this is going to come across as mean-spirited, I know. but when you see friends do this and get mangled you'll understand why...

You're kidding right?
180s on final approach????
Not at THIS DZ you don't...or any other I would expect.
I'm on final behind you and you pull off a 180, we're gonna have a discussion if I survive. A serious discussion. You pull a 180 anywhere in the landing pattern and we're gonna talk.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JohanW 0]

Sounds more like he's talking chassees (sashays for you 'Merkins) on base, not 180s on final.

Which is the correct way to prevent OP's problem.

If I'm high on final, I continue to fly my parachute and will probably have to walk farther than I planned.

Except that one time when there was no more field in front of me. And not enough room and altitude to turn really. I flared. And then I PLFed from 10 or 20 foot or something. Stood up, brushed off the ego, waved to the spectators, cursed the videoman. It happened alright.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[popsjumper 2]

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Sounds more like he's talking chassees (sashays for you 'Merkins) on base, not 180s on final.

Well, OK but he did say 180. That's a little different than S-turns or "shashays".

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Which is the correct way to prevent OP's problem.

Respectfully disagree here. S-turns are a cover-up for the original goof-up of entering the pattern too high. Prevention is understanding the proper pattern entry point for the wind conditions and canopy you are flying.

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Except that one time when there was no more field in front of me. And not enough room and altitude to turn really. I flared.

I assume that you know about braked approach and flat turns and the need for early recognition of a problem and the advisability of early correction.

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cursed the videoman. It happened alright.

Vidiots catch a lot of flak, eh?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[erdnarob 1]

Then what are you doing when too high and you obviously will pass the target with a ditch or obstacles 300 ft ahead ??? If you prefer I change 180 degrees flat turns for sashay. When I say final it is at 1000 ft not on short final.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Then what are you doing when too high and you obviously will pass the target with a ditch or obstacles 300 ft ahead ???

Well, you could fly in a deep brake or double front risers configuration until your trajectory came up short of the obstacle.

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If you prefer I change 180 degrees flat turns for sashay.

Technically, sashays and s-turns (aka your 180 degree turns method) are not the same thing.
Sashays offset your trajectory to the left or right with minimal (or very temporary) change in heading.
S-turns change your trajectory as well as heading for a significant amount of time.
S-turns in the pattern are frowned upon nowadays because of the collision hazard they pose.
Sashays are more like flying your canopy sideways, whereas s-turns are flying your canopy in different directions for a certain amount of time.

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When I say final it is at 1000 ft not on short final.

This may be a language barrier question, but in the US, 'final' generally means the lowest 300-ish ft AGL. or the leg when you turn into the wind or determined landing direction.
The pattern starts at 1000 ft. You get to do downwind, base and final all under 1000 ft.

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DiveMaker

[Inspired 0]

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Sashays are more like flying your canopy sideways, whereas s-turns are flying your canopy in different directions for a certain amount of time.

[n00b question] How, exactly, do you fly a canopy sideways without flying crosswind? [/n00b question]

[fred 0]

I always figured students kinda learned backward.

That is, the first problem they'll encounter is going being too high on final approach. For this, they should have a big forgiving canopy and make S-turns. And they should be landing in a low-traffic area, since their S-turns are pretty unpredictable.

As they get better at figuring out when to make the turn to final, they'll start figuring out their turn to crosswind. At this point, they can making sharp, deep turns or wider flatter turns to get that entry into final approach right. They should still be jumping a forgiving canopy and landing into a student area. Eventually, they'll be making a smooth 90degree turn into final and not require S-turns.

Similarly for the crosswind turn and the downwind turn.

Of course, this learning happens somewhat in parallel, but it's definitely easier to predict where you're going to end up the closer you are to the ground. From there, your experience builds backward.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Sashays are more like flying your canopy sideways, whereas s-turns are flying your canopy in different directions for a certain amount of time.

[n00b question] How, exactly, do you fly a canopy sideways without flying crosswind? [/n00b question]

The same way you fly sideways in ff.

You maintain the same heading and move to the right or left.

The way to do it under canopy (a rough explanation) is to pull some right toggle, then some left toggle such that the left toggle trails the right toggle and then neutralize with both toggles at the same deflection position at a deep brake or smoothly returned to full flight mode.
All toggle movements are slow and smooth, not jabbing, stabbing crap.
For instance, you pull 4 inches on the right and then pull 3 inches on the left and then as you continue pulling right you also pull left, but don't catch up to equal pulls on each side until you want to stop the offset or sideways movement. It's easier to explain in person with motions than in words.

By contrast, s-turns are a toggle turn R (or L) that changes your heading and you keep until you let up on the R (or L) toggle, followed by a turn in the opposite direction.

By contrast to braked turns, you are moving both toggles in a sashay, but only one toggle in a braked turn.

This is not a really complete explanation either.

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DiveMaker

[popsjumper 2]

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...That is, the first problem they'll encounter is going being too high on final approach. For this, they should have a big forgiving canopy and make S-turns.....

Uhhhhh....Fred please re-think that.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[MikeJD 0]

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the upwind portion of the final approach should be clear of obstacles as well. The rule of thumb is "Don't fly over anything you don't want to land on"

I'm not so sure about this.

I can see some sense in giving this advice to very new students, but I see a lot of relatively inexperienced jumpers carrying this attitude forward. They become afraid of putting any obstacle between their point over the ground and their intended landing spot, regardless of their altitude or the winds.

I think this contributes a lot to the 'too hot' problem. Jumpers who lack the confidence to fly a pattern end up either spiralling over the landing area or putting in big S-turns to avoid overshooting, and that unpredictable behaviour presents a big problem for the people behind them.

[erdnarob 1]

Flying a canopy sideway means "crabbing" to use a general aviation expression or combine the proper speed of the parachute and the wind speed to get a resulting speed. We call that in mathematics:
Vector addition of 2 speeds

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[DanG 1]

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Vector addition of 2 speeds

Speed is a scalar. Velocity is a vector.

There, you've been out nerded.

- Dan G

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Flying a canopy sideway means "crabbing" to use a general aviation expression or combine the proper speed of the parachute and the wind speed to get a resulting speed. We call that in mathematics:
Vector addition of 2 speeds

'Flying a canopy sideway(s)' and 'crabbing' are two distinctively different concepts and maneuvers.

You cannot crab in a no-wind situation, but you can fly your canopy sideways in no-winds. QED.

ditto what DanG said.

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DiveMaker

[shah269 0]

So....help out the n00b....what is this flat turn you speak of?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[skydude2000 3]

I have a question about this,

"Well, you could fly in a deep brake or double front risers configuration until your trajectory came up short of the obstacle."

Wouldn't double-fronts increase your forward speed, not decrease it to land short of the obstacle? And increasing speed toward said obstacle would be undesirable, no?

I'm not quite sure how the trade-off works between the increased speed, and the loss of altitude when using double fronts. I'd imagine it depends on the canopy.

PULL!! or DIE!!

[fasted3 0]

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what is this flat turn you speak of?

When you yank a toggle, you go one way, the canopy tilts and goes another way and you turn.
A flat turn keeps you pretty much underneath the canopy, which remains level or flat. You lose less altitude, and use less space in front of you doing it.
It can be done with toggles or rear risers, and should be learned at the appropriate time in your training. If you don't feel comfortable doing one by the time you have your A, then take a canopy course as soon as possible afterwords. Better yet, take one anyway.
Psst: Use search and ask your instructors too

But what do I know?