bob.dino 0 #26 June 17, 2009 PAC's do that. I've been on/in a couple that stalled. Don't put more than 5 + camera out, and if the group is larger than an 8-way, make sure later divers stay up with the pilot. Also: warn the pilot so (s)he can increase the speed of jump run. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #27 June 17, 2009 QuoteIt would be good to point out also that on this load, one of the floaters is a very big guy. And, the video pointed out that he and the front floater were very high on the step. They were probly creating quite a burble for the horizontal stabilizer. He's just big boned. (there were 3 pretty big guys on the 2nd attempt and no problem that time with the higher airspeed) another hint for jumpers is to practice and expect a brisk climbout and count - the inside people need to be ready, floaters really do need to understand the best way to climb out (step out sideways facing the front - I really hate the BIG TURN some do (example - left door, face the rear and rotate CCW through the door and the others to end up facing forward....), it puts hackeys in jeopardy, pushes on the outside people, and takes longer especially if anyone other than the first couple out does it.) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnskydiver688 0 #28 June 17, 2009 Was one of them Cory? Ha. When this pilot flew in NE he was very professional and listened to different viewpoints in regards to jump operations. Glad to hear everything worked out. Maybe the divers are scared of tripping on the wing spar so they have to crowd the back. Sky Canyon Wingsuiters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #29 June 17, 2009 QuoteWas one of them Cory? I know 2 Cory 1 was on this load and is medium sized like me (Waseca local) the other jumps a tandem rig modified to a sport rig and was not on this load (Baldwin Local) and, Yeah, I was very impressed with the pilot all day ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 32 #30 June 17, 2009 (there were 3 pretty big guys on the 2nd attempt and no problem that time with the higher airspeed) ____ I was on the 2nd, not there for the first, last inside. The only problem on the 2nd attempt was that the pilot was compensating so much that that getting to the door was like climbing a stepladder (when the chunk left, the tail of the plane came up about 2 1/2 feet and stayed there. Not that I'd rather be inside during a stall.......This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feeblemind 1 #31 June 22, 2009 I have 800 jumps out of the Pac with numerous different pilots. I am normally the vidiot so I am the furthest to the rear. Even with the best of pilots (Chris was one of the best)a plane can stall. I have been on the camera step and watched the nose begin to pitch up (be aware of your aircraft, IMHO) and either felt a fast rock to port of have the pilot kick the rudder (get the fuck off the airplane). In my experience the near stalls were with large formations followed by a slow climb out and count (super front float, front float, two outside the door, rear float, vidiot and two in the door). Even though we made the pilot aware that much weight aft of the CG accompanied by the drag is difficult for the pilot to overcome with RPM and torque of the turbine. Stay safe, Feeble Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StefB 0 #32 June 22, 2009 Feeble, when you see the signs of a stall (pitch going up, rock to port) - would you jump before the team in order to make the situation safer? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #33 June 22, 2009 QuoteEven though we made the pilot aware that much weight aft of the CG accompanied by the drag is difficult for the pilot to overcome with RPM and torque of the turbine The engine is not the solution in that case. The p-factor on a single engine airplane causes the plane to roll in one direction when power is applied, more-so at lower airspeeds. Combine that with the possible distruption of airflow around the tail (the rudder is what is used to counter the tendency to roll) and you have a lose/lose situation. The solution is a satbilized jumprun with correct attitude and airspeed established before the jumpers begin to climb out. The more people you intended to put outside the airplane, the faster the jumprun speed should be. Of equal importance is the attitude, which should be nose-down, with a modest descent rate of a few hundered feet per minute. Pilots should be discouraged from trying to maintain altitiude throughout the jumprun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #34 June 22, 2009 QuoteQuoteEven though we made the pilot aware that much weight aft of the CG accompanied by the drag is difficult for the pilot to overcome with RPM and torque of the turbine The engine is not the solution in that case. The p-factor on a single engine airplane causes the plane to roll in one direction when power is applied, more-so at lower airspeeds. Combine that with the possible distruption of airflow around the tail (the rudder is what is used to counter the tendency to roll) and you have a lose/lose situation. The solution is a satbilized jumprun with correct attitude and airspeed established before the jumpers begin to climb out. The more people you intended to put outside the airplane, the faster the jumprun speed should be. Of equal importance is the attitude, which should be nose-down, with a modest descent rate of a few hundered feet per minute. Pilots should be discouraged from trying to maintain altitiude throughout the jumprun. Correct - and in addition, a propeller far ahead of the CG (as in a PAC) is destabilizing in pitch AND yaw too, and the extent depends on the amount of thrust produced. So although increased airflow over the elevators and vertical fin may give more control authority, a plane on the verge of instability can be pushed over the edge by adding power.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #35 June 25, 2009 Usually a group like this is first out. Often you will see the other jumpers moving aft in anticipation of their turn. Jumpers need to be educated to sit still in the front during a large drag off. Tandem masters who budge from the front during this type of exit deserve to be fired. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #36 June 25, 2009 QuoteTandem masters who budge from the front during this type of exit deserve to be educated. fixed it for reality if they repeat the bad behavior after training on the topic, then more aggressive responses should be considered ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #37 June 26, 2009 QuoteQuoteTandem masters who budge from the front during this type of exit deserve to be fired. fixed it for reality if they repeat the bad behavior after training on the topic, then more aggressive responses should be considered fixed it back for reality. A TI has a D-license and enough jumps under his belt to KNOW this already. He's ignored the training he's already had.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timbre 0 #38 June 26, 2009 QuotePAC's do that. I've been on/in a couple that stalled. Don't put more than 5 + camera out, and if the group is larger than an 8-way, make sure later divers stay up with the pilot. Also: warn the pilot so (s)he can increase the speed of jump run. No kidding on this advice: not one but two separate PAC stall incidents today at the American Boogie in Davis -- two different planes and two different pilots, both while launching large formations...floaters ejected in both cases, one with a relatively minor (at least as minor as it gets) tailstrike. Scary stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #39 June 26, 2009 we only put five out.. the rest waits on the benches ...“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #40 June 26, 2009 Quote we only put five out.. the rest waits on the benches ... yup, your dropzone had a stall experience and learnt from it. some other DZ's don't learn.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #41 June 26, 2009 Quote Quote we only put five out.. the rest waits on the benches ... yup, your dropzone had a stall experience and learnt from it. some other DZ's don't learn. and the warning buzz still comes on every now and then.. i love the PAC!!! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robdiver 0 #42 June 26, 2009 The PAC at our drop zone definitely has a line saying "no more than 9 jumpers past this line"... I don't think anyone took too much notice of it until it stalled with a 10 way leaving the aircraft causing a tail strike. Thankfully no one was injured, but I think everyone woke up a bit after that...I'm guessing its a similar incident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #43 June 26, 2009 well, you only fuck with the rule when the chief is onboard three times: the first, the only and the last time! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sletzer 3 #44 June 26, 2009 It actually was quite turbulent. (They were taking loads up in holes between icy rainclouds periodically that weekend. Certainly not the best weather.) I just remember people on the plane shaking their heads when it kept going off. I didn't take that possiblity into considertaion. Thanks for making me aware of a potential cause.I will be kissing hands and shaking babies all afternoon. Thanks for all your support! *bows* SCS #8251 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feeblemind 1 #45 June 26, 2009 QuoteFeeble, when you see the signs of a stall (pitch going up, rock to port) - would you jump before the team in order to make the situation safer? Absolutely!!, I would just let them know my safety is more important than points, if there was an issue with that I would not be on that team. I have no desire to have a close encounter with a horizontal stablizer of any aircraft. In addition, I have seen a 8-way with video launched from a Pac (I was the vidiot and those whom know my I am of the stocky stature). As previously stated, folks need to stay forward, the pilot needs to be informed of the larger group in the door, and the large group in the door needs to be efficient on climb out & exit. Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #46 June 26, 2009 Quotefixed it back for reality. A TI has a D-license and enough jumps under his belt to KNOW this already. He's ignored the training he's already had. your call Pops - I don't recall any specific requirements in the SIM for PAC loading for a D license. But everyone should have their opinion. I'd not castigate a TM that has jumped Otters and Cessnas for 10 years and suddenly the DZ brings in a PAC. But if he started to move early to the tail on during highly loaded exit lineup, I might mention it to him on the ground before screaming to the DZO for his head. I know you wouldn't be screaming before any other consideration. You're a lot more reasonable than that, and a lot more experienced. edit: It constantly amazes me what people don't "know", but it constantly amazes me more what people just assume others "know" and how they are ready to strongly act on those assumptions . ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 55 #47 June 26, 2009 Different PAC stall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbaAaiSDKQQ&fmt=18 check also this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egg8NIBV2HI&fmt=18 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #48 June 26, 2009 I recently received this as a PM>>> -------------------- "How 'bout posting the video? And did they get any points built? The jumper separation during opening was probably just as scary." --------------------- The video shows very little of the stall except for the horizon disappearing from the scene just before we were ejected. Otherwise, I would have already posted. We were able to finish a really nice formation and watch a nice 4way (the last 4 out) falling beside us in the distance. However, this brings up a really nice point!! What do we do with "unexpected" separations??? My reason for reporting this incident was for education! Thanks for all the great posts and suggestions. It has become very clear that PAC's have issues with stalls. That does NOT make them bad aircraft, but, we need to be ever vigilant about these issues so they can continue to fly us to altitude SAFELY.Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #49 June 28, 2009 The meat goes in the middle, that's how RW works, It's a fact of life. We had 1 bad stall and 1 where the driver shook the jumpers off in the last couple of days in PACs. They are very DZO friendly but not the best RW ship. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #50 June 28, 2009 QuoteDifferent PAC stall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbaAaiSDKQQ&fmt=18 I don't see a stall in that video. I see a trail pilot who was about to over take the lead plane, and pitched up to slow down.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
