GROUND LAUNCHING CHUTE?

[Dangerousmind86 0]

Any recommendations on the size or make of chute I should use to get aquainted with ground launching? I'm 200 pounds with clothes on. What wing loading would be best? Thanks for any available info! --Andy--

ANDY

[chachi 0]

my suggestion, go to www.canopypiloting.com and ask the guy that has basically invented the sport.

[AggieDave 6]

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my suggestion, go to www.canopypiloting.com and ask the guy that has basically invented the sport.

And once you meet the minimum requirements for skydiving canopy experience, go to a ground launching course. Its not easy and its not safe. Ask Jim (the "inventor" of ground launching) how safe ground launching is and how he did this past year.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[PhreeZone 15]

People were ground launching in the 80's before most the people on this fourm were in high school. Jim has revitalized interest in it recently, but he sure didn't invent it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[chachi 0]

semantics. while people have been doing it for 20 years jim has refined it, produced canopies specifically for it, and turned it into a "sport."

jim will be the first to give guys like bj worth etc... the rights for the idea. as for creating a marketable sport around it no one can deny jim invented it.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey Andy,

Just a heads up, no one on here will give any type of advice on ground launching. I'm not sure why but I've tried. I've called and spoken to Jim himself and no one will divulge any tiy tidbit of info.

I know for a fact that someone will disagree with me for saying what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyways.

I am very interested in all types of flight, ground launching just happens to be one of them. I want to purchase a ratty old container and an older canopy to get into some ground launching. I was hoping to talk to some people so I can get some advice to be safe and get the right gear etc... Unfortunately, I got the same responses..."Go to California and talk to Jim". Unfortunately, that trip would cost me no less than 3 grand after I include airfare, food, hotels, the course etc etc etc....

I agree that this is my problem, but that's not going to stop me from trying. I'll just have to experiment. I get the feeling that everyone is trying to leave Jim with the entire market on this area of the sport, which is perfectly fine. I just wish a small bit of information was available as for better canopies to choose and gear etc... I give him credit for doing what he did and investing the money to back it, and I hope he continues to do well with it...BUT..... For people who simply can't go to California and take his course, the lack of information isn't going to stop me, it's simply going to make me learn on my own.

As I said, I know someone will bitch me for saying that, but I have no other choice if I want to ground launch. I'm sure BASE jumping is the same. For people who can't get to an actual base training camp or whatever, I guarantee it doesn't stop them, it just hinders them slightly. Hopefully they at least have a coach. If your mind is set, saying "go here for training" when you can't will not stop someone.

If I ever make it to California, I will go see Jim. But right now..it's not going to happen.

Please don't take this as me telling you to fight the power or anything like that Andy. I highly recommend taking the course and being safe about it. I think that is the best way to do it. Assuming you take the course and I don't, I don't have a doubt in the world that you will be a better "ground launcher" than myself. I simply do not have that option so I have no choice but to find other means.

This is not flaming Jim at all for what he does. I think it's great that he's broadening the sport and getting media coverage for skydiving. If Jim was closer to myself, or I was rich, I would have taken his course long ago. I'm not saying one bit that Jim should make a DVD showing everyone how to ground launch, obviously it's a business and I'm not stupid. All I'm really looking for is some recommended canopies besides the GLX line, and recommended wing loading.

Anyways, I fully accept any flack for this post, but it wasn't my intent to cause a commotion. I simply wanted to express my view on the lack of info. Hopefully people can understand my views and understand that without the info, it isn't stopping people from doing it. I know the info is out there.

on another note Andy... I'm not going into this completely blind. I do have a coach who has done some ground launching. I have also invested alot of time to learning about my canopy, the weather, ground effect, flat turns, etc... If you want a good start, look into paragliding, lots of good info there, and learn about micrometeorology, you need to know how wind/drafts act around objects like rocks, ditches, and small hills. You need to understand alot about wind...trust me. Also, learn to recover your canopy from a collapse as quick as possible. It is likely you will not have a chance depending on how low you are, but I still like knowing that I can slow my decent as much as possible and increase my chance of survival.

Hopefully that info will help you out. Please take the course if you can. If you refuse to or simply cannot, do your homework. This is a very dangerous sport, I have heard it compared to base jumping. Please use your brain...there is alot to be learnt even before taking Jim's course.

Chris

Edit to add: I have done nothing more than kiting my canopy for about 20 minutes one day. I don't intend to go further until I feel comfortable with my canopy and my knowledge that I've gained. DON'T BE STUPID ABOUT IT!!! Put some effort into your safety!!!

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[seal_S49 0]

A guy with 3 jumps giving advice to a guy with 10 jumps, and now we get a history lesson.

Don't take my word for it--do some research on paragliding (an offshoot of hang-gliding) and you'll find that most ground launching is done outside the skydiving community.

The paraglide guys have put many years of effort into a highly developed sport that is almost invisible to us. While all canopy-sports have the same roots, it's a real slam to paragliding to say that skydivers are exclusively responsible for the development of ground-launching.

While most paragliding canopies are suited for long flights and look very different than ours, it's interesting to notice that paragliders are developing faster canopies that are suitable for terrain swooping and look more like ours. Meanwhile, skdivers are becoming interested in ground-launching, which requires different flight characteristics than skydiving. We could learn a lot from each other, and it looks like these two sports have taken the same direction. Don't be surprised if we end up sharing a hill with folks who have never made a skydive.

[marks 0]

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I am very interested in all types of flight, ground launching just happens to be one of them. I want to purchase a ratty old container and an older canopy to get into some ground launching. I was hoping to talk to some people so I can get some advice to be safe and get the right gear etc... Unfortunately, I got the same responses..."Go to California and talk to Jim". Unfortunately, that trip would cost me no less than 3 grand after I include airfare, food, hotels, the course etc etc etc....

because there are not many peeps who post on this site who groundlaunch.

I don't either, or I would help you. the best I can do is refer you to www.canopypiloting.com and post your questions there.

[tdog 0]

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Any recommendations on the size or make of chute I should use to get aquainted with ground launching? I'm 200 pounds with clothes on. What wing loading would be best? Thanks for any available info! --Andy--

Andy,

I learned to Paraglide before I learned to Skydive....

Paragliding instructors dedicate their lives to this sport.

Knowing what I know, I would learn to ground launch using a Paraglider... You will learn about the weather, the winds, etc - and have a wing designed for ground launching...

Then, when you want to fly something faster on the same hill - most of the skills will transfer over. But have a few hundred skydives on a canopy (size) so you know how to fly it, before you try to fly it close to the ground.

Ground launching can be much more dangerous than Skydiving, especially without training. From some numbers I crunched, it is much more dangerous. I think Paraglider instructors have a lot of knowledge that has not been utilized by skydivers wanting to try this sport, and finding a good one will open your mind to so much information about weather, flying, aerodynamics (most) skydivers have no clue about.

And, my paragliding instructor even let us use his "Student Gear" as part of the flat fee package. Something like a few AFF jumps in cost would buy you a summer's worth of training lessons and gear rental...

[rhys 0]

I am willing to share what I know about ground launching. I have about 150 flights on many different canopies from a F111 maberic 200 to an FX94.

It is not nessecary to have a ground launch specific canopy to begin with but it is nessecary to approach the new sport in a safe manner. You will in time lust after a GLX or GLSxf though as they are Ideal.

I also learned the tricks of the trade off paragliders and the paragliding training hill closest to you would probably be the best/safest palace in your area to learn.

There is a GL specific forum at canopypiloting.com and I just replied to a similar question there.

I too found when I was starting that no one would give me the information that I needed. I guess no one wants to be resposable for injuries by giving bad advice?

I do feel that more information is needed to be available for safety reasons. Also I know people like yourself and myself will just go and try anyway.

I won't post full details just yet as it will take time to write it carefully enough to not get the wrong message across.

Start by learning to kite your canopy above your head. you can do this in your front yard if there is enough wind. that is always the first step. watch how the paragliders do it!

Be Safe,

Rhys

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Stumpy 256]

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, it's interesting to notice that paragliders are developing faster canopies that are suitable for terrain swooping and look more like ours.

Like this:
http://www.flyozone.com/paragliders/en/products/gliders/bullet/

Looks like fun to me, wonder if it will go to terminal as well

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[stayhigh 2]

i tried it wasn't successful, now im glad that i didn't get air-borne,,,,

wishing to be in the air when you are on the ground sucks,, but it sucks even more when you are on the air wishing that you are on the ground..

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[bluesidedown 0]

L=(0.5)* rho* v^2*Cl*A

Lift= 200 lbs
rho= fixed
Cl= fixed for simplicity
v= how fast you can run - hangin on front risers to zero the AOA
A= area

In short- more area will get you off the ground at a lower speed; but, larger area will induce more drag... so, there's a balance.

In general, you can try it with anything. Bigger canopies are heavier, so will need more airspeed to inflate and provide lift equal to their own weight, let alone your additional poundage.

Try 1 to 1 if you can. 1.15 maybe... 0.9 maybe. If you're not comfy at those loadings now... wait till you are.

In my experience:

Learn to kite your canopy. If its a windy (non-rainy) day- go outside and kite. Learn how to control the canopy below it's flight speed. Find it's envelope. Canopies do some quirky things at low speeds. Figure out the kinks.

Once you can kite... take out health insurance. It's your call to ground launch, and your responsibility to be properly prepared.

Thereafter... start small. Be smart. Assess the risks. Count all the places on the hill where you could break your ankle, multiply it by 140% and decide if you still want to give it a go.

There's a thread out there that has a link to Brian Germain's site, and a page on the "How To's"- it's worth checking out.



In general, it's a pity that aspects of the sport are being made so exclusive. California isn't the only country on the planet that has mountains, and a majority of potential ground lunchers may not have 3 grand to drop on a trip out there while they have hills in their back yard.

Fly safe.


...edited for touchups.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey everyone,

I would just like to say thank you. My post got some unexpected answers. I expected to be told that I was going to kill myself. It was said, but not in a way that screams, "you're a moron for attempting this". It was simply stated that it is incredibly dangerous and you can get hurt very badly, very easily.

I really appreciate the advice and I agree with what bluesidedown said

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In general, it's a pity that aspects of the sport are being made so exclusive. California isn't the only country on the planet that has mountains, and a majority of potential ground lunchers may not have 3 grand to drop on a trip out there while they have hills in their back yard.

I appreciate the advice and highly stress to anyone who is going to try it, not to just go. There is so much to be learnt before you go to the top of a hill. I have a small hill in my back yard, enough for me to learn on, but I haven't been on it yet as I don't feel comfortable. I want to kite my canopy more and read up on alot of info.

Thanks for the info so far

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[billvon 2,471]

I second the recommendation about learning to paraglide first. You will get trained by someone who has been doing it for years, with gear that has been developed over decades to be safe for beginners. When you transition to groundlaunching skydiving canopies you'll have a much broader base of knowledge to draw from.

I did my first groundlaunch with a PD190 on a steep hill. After a lot of bumps and bruises I figured it out. Then I took a paragliding course and learned about what I should have been doing all along.

[hjumper33 0]

As someone who recently began ground launching, Id say dont rush into it. I have around 230 skydives and my canopy skills were probably right on the border of what was safe to do. Its one of those things just like other stuff in the sport, you can do it early on, but your odds of getting hurt are much higher. Ive heard of guys with thousands of skydives eating it pretty hard on their first attempts, as I did. All warnings being said, its an awesome way to get to know your canopy as every single input is so magnified by being so close to the ground. It sure is a lot of fun, but you might want to try on a beach first, because when you eat shit, and you will, itll be softer. As far as wing loadings im not so sure, I do it at about 1.35 but Ive seen people do much lower and much higher.

[brianfry713 0]

Get an airworthy canopy you're comfortable skydiving loaded between around 1.2 and 1.5. Higher and lower wing loadings will work depending on the slope and wind. A nine cell ZP canopy will glide better, and make sure your brake lines aren't too short. Use an airworthly skydiving, BASE, paragliding, or ground launch harness. Don't get upset if your brand new $6,000 rig gets dirty, as ground launching is hard on gear. Wear a helmet, knee pads, and jeans. Take the slider, dbag, and pilot chute off as you won't be needing them. It's also a good idea to lock your cutaway system with something like a link to make sure your canopy won't release.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/art-groundlaunch.php
http://www.bladerunning.com/trainingcenter.htm

Most people on this website will just give you the standard answer of talk to your rigger or instructors, or for ground launching, go see Jim.

I live in California, so I was able to drive to the Ground Launch Center last year. I took Jim's Ground Launch 1 course and it cost $500. For an extra $40 a day, we were fed three home cooked meals by Jim's wife and slept in Jim's living room on cots. So it ran me a total of $640 + a few tanks of gas. I just looked on Orbitz and found you a flight from Ottawa to Bakersfield just in time for the next GLC course Feb 15-18 for $600. Give them a call and they'll probably try to get you a ride to/from the airport. They also have a good supply of rental gear you can probably use free during the course. So I think you can get there for $1200 including everything, much less than the 3 grand you quoted.

I learned a lot about how to safely ground launch, and also unfortunately some of its risks. You sound like you have your mind made up that you don't want to take the course, so good luck on your own.

As with all aviation, the basic rules are: keep the wing under control and don't hit anything. It is very easy to stall on toggles and rear risers, so be ready to return to the ground anytime your angle of attack gets too high. Don't fly over anything you wouldn't want to land on. Make sure your hill and wind are suitable.

BASE is completely different, you're more likely to die. In ground launching you could die, but you'll probably just break yourself badly if you screw up. It's my opinion that you're more likely to get injured ground launching than BASE jumping. Have fun.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey,

Thanks for the info, and the research you put into the flights. Unfortunately there's a bit more involved than a flight, food and the course. That's assuming I can use rental gear for free, don't have to pay transportation to the launch site, don't buy anything while I'm down there, don't get travel insurance, don't rent a car etc... Plus, add the conversion to CDN dollars and you are approaching 3 grand. Not to mention the pay cut from taking the time off work.

I said 3 grand off the top of my head, it was just a rough idea, yet I still think it would be at least 2500 CDN all said and done. It was more to prove a point that it's just not an easy answer, or at least not for everyone.

Either way, I'm trying to do this as safe as possible and don't plan on using my skydiving gear for it as I don't want to damage it one bit. I really am glad that some advice was divulged, much more than I've gotten up to now. Honestly, before this thread, the ONLY answer I ever got was, "go see jim".

I still have alot of time to look into this and it's not a high priority in my life right now.

Thanks again

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Martini 0]

IMHO: If you're gonna crash and burn ground launching then do it in the snow. Also no running involved and you get to slide out the landings.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[snivel1 0]

Is ground launching the same thing as Paragliding?

[rhys 0]

>Is ground launching the same thing as Paragliding?

That is what I am trying to work out with the New Zealand Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association at the moment. Their rules say; any wing launched by foot in New Zealand is to be regulated by them. I know Jim Slaton developed the World Swooping Association but do not know the boundaries of the WSA.
I believe Ground Launching parachutes and Speed Flying paragliders will develop into a single sport where both Skydivers and Paragliders take place.

It seems the Paragliders are a little behind in the wing technology. Paragliders are quite different to parachutes. I was reading that highly experienced Paragliders (pilots) were not willing to fly the first generation speed gliders as they were simply a scaled down paraglider and far too dangerous. They are now designing wings more like parachutes but the sport of ‘Speed flying’ seems to be classified as a winter sport using skis.

I foresee a common sport called ‘Para swooping’ or similar with Blade Running events etc. The term ground launching is not descriptive enough when you consider it to be a discipline of Paragliding.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[dorbie 0]

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It seems the Paragliders are a little behind in the wing technology. .

Rubbish. PGs are extremely refined come in all sorts of varieties and have evolved to maximize things like glide ratio and/or minimum sink while maintaining recoverability in a high aspect ratio wing. More recently they have moved into designs specifically for "speed flying" which the PG community generally calls blade running etc.

There is no such thing as a ground launched skydive, and the USPA understandably washes it's hands of this situation effectively ignoring those in the skydiving community who ground launch. This leaves the issue of unregulated, inadequately trained, uninsured skydivers showing up at sites that have been flown for years by experienced paragliders and burning them.

If Jim (femur is not a verb) Slaton invented ground launching or even turned it into a sport then I invented the wheel. He did bridge the gap for the skydiving community and gave it some prominence, maybe even developing it in unique directions, but the job isn't near done yet IMHO.

[dorbie 0]

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Any recommendations on the size or make of chute I should use to get aquainted with ground launching? I'm 200 pounds with clothes on. What wing loading would be best? Thanks for any available info! --Andy--

You should decide what you want to do in the sport, then decide how to approach it. Do you want the thrill of flying a canopy downhill or do you want to soar & try to catch thermals & stay up. If it's he latter you need to get paragliding training. For the former you still need some kind of training / mentoring but you should understand the risk you're taking going in.

If your jump numbers are accurate you may want to wait a while but there's nothing stopping you practicing kiting in safe conditions. You can ground launch most canopies so I guess you're looking at your first canopy and making sure you don't rule out ground launching. If you are getting a skydiving canopy for dual use then docile would be good IMHO, even more so than normal. I would encourage anyone doing this to get paragliding training and a paraglider then you can always decide to speed fly later on whatever gear your experience & training then informs you is appropriate.

[jakee 1,279]

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Is ground launching the same thing as Paragliding?

It is the same in that you are foot launching a canopy, the equipment and objectives are very different.

Put simply, paragliding is about getting high, going far and maybe doing acro moves (depending on taste).

Ground launching is about staying low, going fast and skimming the terrain.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Trae 1]

in reply to "semantics. while people have been doing it for 20 years jim has refined it, produced canopies specifically for it, and turned it into a "sport."

jim will be the first to give guys like bj worth etc... the rights for the idea. as for creating a marketable sport around it no one can deny jim invented it. "

............................................................


yeah right
I can deny it and I do . This type of rewriting history BS completely ignores the pioneering work done by the real inventors.

Pioneering CRW enthusiasts mainly on slopes in France 'invented ' ground launching in the early 80's.
Before this time suitable canopies barely existed.

This type of ME generation thing is like the newbies I met the other week who invented skydiving.
hey I invented scissors ... really