Skydiving Instructors lack of benefits/insurance-Koji

[skybytch 259]

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It's called a reward for working my fucking ass off to get here. And working my ass off to keep it.

No one is saying that you aren't entitled to make good money for what you do. But it was your choice to do it. Some people don't have those choices - not everybody has the brains to go to med school, not everybody can afford to get even a bachelor's degree.

Just like a skydiving instructor should know that paying for an injury is up to them, you should have known that you may have to treat people who are uninsured when you chose your career. You can still choose to not treat uninsured patients by going into private practice.

I sure hope that you don't display this same attitude at the bedside of any uninsured patients you are forced to treat...

[Douva 0]

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Nobody takes a job as a skydiving instructor because it's the only work he or she can find. Like other forms of self-employment, working as a skydiving instructor is a choice, and like other forms of self-employment, you make some sacrifices for the freedom of being self-employed. I don't see any need to attract more instructors. In fact, at most of the drop zones I've visited, there seems to be an abundance of rating holders. Passing the cost of instructor health insurance on to jumpers would decrease the total number of jumps made (basic high school economics--supply and demand) and hurt a lot of already struggling DZ's.

A person does not have to put his or her life on hold simply because he or she doesn't have health insurance. There are about nine million Americans who are chronically without health insurance, and the vast majority of them are not bankrupted by injuries. Being without health insurance is not the best scenario, but it is manageable. Hospitals cannot refuse treatment to a seriously injured person, and hospitals must work out payment plans with people who cannot afford their medical bills. Also, although bankruptcy is not an ideal option, this is exactly why bankruptcy laws exist, to prevent people form being ruined by debt they cannot pay. Too many people put themselves into bad financial situations (i.e., credit card debt) in order to pay $100 or more per month for health insurance, because they're afraid of putting themselves into a bad financial situation if they should be injured or become ill. What is the logic in that? As for people making the decision between recreational activities and health insurance, that's a personal decision, but I'd be hesitant to suggest there's one answer that is right for everybody.

You want to go out and pay and have your fun but you don't wanna foot the bill when you get broken to pay me for fixing you? And you aren't willing to chip into the insurance that will pay me for fixing you? All because there exist all these ways to get out of personal responsibility for your actions.

I'd like you to tell the plumber that you can't pay him cause you don't have the cash, or tell the power company "hey, let's work it out."

If you can't pay, don't fucking play.

Attitudes like this make me fucking sick.

Attitudes like yours make me sick. You haven't got a clue what life is like for somebody working 40-60 hours a week to make $25,000-$30,000 per year. You make a six figure income and have your health insurance paid by your employer, and you presume to preach to the rest of us about how we spend our meager incomes. How about we just socialize medicine, cut your salary to about 1/3 - 1/4 of what it currently is, and then EVERYBODY can afford health care. Does that plan work for you?

That you would get so upset that I suggested bankruptcy might be an option for a person earning $30,000 per year and facing a $500,000 medical bill is inexcusable. This is the type of detached attitude that's historically lead to revolutions around the world (France, Russia, etc).

EDITED TO ADD: PS. I have health insurance.

way to go and stick your foot in your mouth. I hardly make a six figure income yet. But you're right, I will. It's called a reward for working my fucking ass off to get here. And working my ass off to keep it. It's not like you get to the top and all of a sudden it's all milk and fucking honey.

Someone working 40-60 hours a week and only making $25-30K....can't afford health insurance? You shouldn't be skydiving. If you go off and get a $500K medical bill cause you were in a car accident from a drunk driver....sure, I can see writing that off. HOWEVER, you roll your fucking dice when you leave that plane. You do it without health insurance, femur yourself in.....well, tough shit. You made that choice, now deal with the consequences.

Your sheer lack of thought to personal responsibiltiy is absurd. Let's all go ahead and do all this shit we can't afford to do. Everyone else will bail us out. It's thoughts like this that let women keep popping out babies just to get a bigger welfare check.

I'm fucking sick and tired of paying for people who have no desire to take responsibility for their own actions.

My original post wasn't about skydiving without insurance. It was about people who can't afford insurance. The only line relating to skydiving was the one line at the end that said, "As for people making the decision between recreational activities and health insurance, that's a personal decision, but I'd be hesitant to suggest there's one answer that is right for everybody." I don't think it makes sense for a person to put himself or herself into debt as a means of avoiding putting himself or herself into debt.

You act as if every person who jumps out of an airplane will eventually need the use of their health insurance to treat a skydiving injury. In fact, only a small percentage will. Your idea of personal responsibility seems to be that nobody should ever undertake an action for which he or she cannot readily handle every possible outcome. That's ridiculous. There are very few actions for which we can be fully prepared for every possible outcome.

There are plenty of people earning $25,000-$30,000 per year who work every bit as hard, if not harder, than you and the rest of the doctors out there. I'm not going to presume to tell those people that they don't deserve to skydive because they don't have the means to pay the medical bills they might face, in the minute chance they are seriously injured.

We don't have bankruptcy laws so that people can go on shopping sprees with their credit cards; we have those laws so that people can have a second chance if they are inadvertently extended beyond their means. Perhaps you would prefer we go back to the old debtor's prison system?

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[wildcard451 0]

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It's called a reward for working my fucking ass off to get here. And working my ass off to keep it.

No one is saying that you aren't entitled to make good money for what you do. But it was your choice to do it. Some people don't have those choices - not everybody has the brains to go to med school, not everybody can afford to get even a bachelor's degree.

Just like a skydiving instructor should know that paying for an injury is up to them, you should have known that you may have to treat people who are uninsured when you chose your career. You can still choose to not treat uninsured patients by going into private practice.

I sure hope that you don't display this same attitude at the bedside of any uninsured patients you are forced to treat...

Not everyone is born equal, or gets an equal lot in life. Don't give the losing team trophies at the 5year old soccer tournament "because they are winners for just playing" Bullshit. Teach them early that they all aren't going to be cream of the crop, and save them some heartbreak down the road.

And until you have actually seen me in practice, don't take cheap shots at my bedside manner just because I am arguing an idea on a fucking web forum. I treat all patients the same, no matter how much I fucking hate some of them.


/on a side note, I need to stop posting when I am post call. I get in a really grumpy fucking mood. Time for bed

[ladyskydiver 0]

Do not even begin to say that someone can not afford health insurance. Since I am a full-time student and work part-time, I make less than $12,000 per year. Yes, you read that right AND I pay for my own personal insurance (at a cost of $487.00 every 3 months) as 1) my work doesn't provide any, 2) I'm too "old" to be covered under anyone else's insurance, and 3) I'm responsible enough to know that if something happens to me, I'm covered and only have a $2,500 deductible - which is still expensive but it's a hell of a lot better than declaring bankruptcy and expecting someone else to foot my bill.

It's called priorities. So, someone making $20,000-30,000 - hot damn! They can afford insurance.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[grue 1]

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Some people don't have those choices - not everybody has the brains to go to med school, not everybody can afford to get even a bachelor's degree.

Unfortunately, today's politically correct string of perpetual bullshit would have people think otherwise.

Not everyone gets to be a winner, not everyone's going to go to college. As a matter of fact, not everyone's going to graduate high school (don't get me started on the effects of spending a disproportionate amount of effort on students who don't care and would have dropped out in the old days, compared to those who do care and show great potential, but are fucked out of it by stupid educational laws), and not everyone will be a great leader.

Whel Halfwit Harry can't open the milk jug for cereal at age 12 because he always turns the cap the wrong way, and you're still telling him he's going to be a doctor, you might want to reexamine your approach to giving life advice, because some roads are going to have limited access, and he doesn't have the right card to get past the guard shack.

People need to accept this. There's always going to be a need for janitors, traffic cops, busboys, sewer jockeys, and other undesireable jobs. If you don't like it, that's fine, but you're not going to change it. If you're religious, you can blame your god. If you're not religious, you can blame people for fucking the stupid but hot people and spitting out stupid babies.

Maybe a few million years down the road, everyone will have the equiv of a 175 IQ on today's scale, but that time isn't now. It's shitty, but you know what? That's how it works. Life is short and it sucks a lot of the fucking time, but it's all we've got.

cavete terrae.

[bigbearfng 16]

"Independent contractors" ARE their "employers"

So by your note, they are kicking themselves in the face.

"Independent contractors" need to arrange for their own insurance.
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Point taken
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Perhaps a way to do this would be to organize a cooperative where they can approach insurance companies and leverage their numbers to get better deals on insurance. This is much better than forming a union and trying to force the (regular jumpers via the) DZOs to cover their care.

It's one idea.

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And I think it's a great idea!
Folks, I know this bonfire, but I really intended this as a hopefully constructive conversation to help out skydiving instructors.
I know I may be stirring some folks up, but now what about maybe USPA (or if there are better suggestions) offering the above suggested cooperative?
USPA already has insurance for members for damage done by them on a skydive so would taking it further for instructors be feasible?

[tetra316 0]

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Do not even begin to say that someone can not afford health insurance. Since I am a full-time student and work part-time, I make less than $12,000 per year. Yes, you read that right AND I pay for my own personal insurance (at a cost of $487.00 every 3 months) as 1) my work doesn't provide any, 2) I'm too "old" to be covered under anyone else's insurance, and 3) I'm responsible enough to know that if something happens to me, I'm covered and only have a $2,500 deductible - which is still expensive but it's a hell of a lot better than declaring bankruptcy and expecting someone else to foot my bill.

It's called priorities. So, someone making $20,000-30,000 - hot damn! They can afford insurance.

Exactly! Especially if they're working in skydiving. Insurance per month only costs 2-3 working jumps and most all full time skydivers I know of make a lot more than 20-30k a year. Someone who only jumps on the weekends is NOT a full time skydiver. They are just too lazy to get another job during the week or they should go somewhere where they can jump all week imho.

[squirrel 0]

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They are just too lazy to get another job during the week or they should go somewhere where they can jump all week imho.

Totally agree. What ever happened to getting a parti time night job, like delivering pizzas to pay the bills. My wife teaches Yoga part time...brings in 250 a month...plenty to cover health insurance.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[livendive 8]

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Exactly! Especially if they're working in skydiving. Insurance per month only costs 2-3 working jumps and most all full time skydivers I know of make a lot more than 20-30k a year. Someone who only jumps on the weekends is NOT a full time skydiver. They are just too lazy to get another job during the week or they should go somewhere where they can jump all week imho.

That's a pretty broad brush there. I work at skydiving on the weekends...that doesn't mean I'm too lazy to work during the week, nor does it mean I should go somewhere where I can work all week. I agree that I'm NOT a full-time skydiver, and I don't want to be.

That's beside the point though. I think there's one detail we might be missing in this discussion. Will the average privately purchased medical insurance policy pay for treatment of injuries sustained while on the job? I'm thinking the insurers might try to deny the claim and tell an instructor to take it up with L&I. I know when I've been injured, my insurance company sends me a questionnaire that very specifically asks whether it was a work-related incident.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[skybytch 259]

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Do not even begin to say that someone can not afford health insurance.

Try supporting yourself and a child on $20k/year and then tell us that everyone can afford health insurance.

Try getting health insurance that's not a job benefit (ie not through a group plan) when you have a pre-existing condition and then tell us that everyone can afford health insurance on $20k/year.

Try making $20k/year cover housing, food, utilities and transportation expenses in an area with a high cost of living (ie California) and then tell us that everyone can afford health insurance on $20k/year.

Not everyone can afford health insurance.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Not everyone can afford health insurance.

I agree with you there, Lisa. The numbers everyone's throwing around for insurance costs are usually for a young, healthy individual without dependents and without preexisting conditions.

But I still believe if you can afford to skydive, you can afford insurance. Those who skydive without it have chosen not to spend their limited income on insurance, but they *can* afford it. They are choosing not to.

I'm not going to tell someone how to spend their money, but I'm also not going to have a lot of sympathy when someone has massive medical bills from a skydiving incident because they chose not to get insurance. Obviously I'll have sympathy for their situation and injury, but the financial implications were at least somewhat preventable. Working out how to pay for a $5,000 deductible is a lot easier than working out how to pay for a $50,000 medical bill.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Deuce 1]

Lisa there are lots of good subsidized family health plans. The one in Contra Costa county maxes at $250 a YEAR.

http://www.cchealth.org/health_plan/pdf/healthy_families_2006.pdf

Fees are on page 75.

Most counties offer something.

[ladyskydiver 0]

Already have a pre-existing condition that is not covered by my health insurance, and I have to pay for anything related to that 100% out of my pocket. Oh...and my health insurance is not group...it's "personal/individual."

Lisa, It's all about choices...what you do with your money, where you live, etc. There are ways to make it work. I grew up watching my mom take care of 2 kids on a salary that I have no clue how she managed it. Yet, we were still clothed, fed, had insurance, and had a roof over our heads. So, yeah...it can be done.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[sunshine 2]

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Not everyone can afford health insurance.

I agree with you lisa. I don't have a child to support, but even i cannot afford health insurance. Due to my health history it is extremely expensive for me to get an individual policy. I tried many different companies and just couldn't find anything i could afford. It's real easy for people with health insurance to broadly state "everyone can afford it". Don't know if it's just way more expensive in IL or what but i think it's ridiculous to have programs in place so all kids get reasonable insurance, but they have jackshit for a 20something to get reasonably priced insurance.

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meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[faulknerwn 37]

Where do you find insurance that cheap? I looked all over last spring, and the cheapest I could find was catastriophic insurance for $90 a month.

I would love to either pay less for catastrophic, or the same amount for something decent but I couldn't find anything available. I'd switch in a heartbeat if I knew something was out there...
W

[Douva 0]

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Do not even begin to say that someone can not afford health insurance. Since I am a full-time student and work part-time, I make less than $12,000 per year. Yes, you read that right AND I pay for my own personal insurance (at a cost of $487.00 every 3 months) as 1) my work doesn't provide any, 2) I'm too "old" to be covered under anyone else's insurance, and 3) I'm responsible enough to know that if something happens to me, I'm covered and only have a $2,500 deductible - which is still expensive but it's a hell of a lot better than declaring bankruptcy and expecting someone else to foot my bill.

It's called priorities. So, someone making $20,000-30,000 - hot damn! They can afford insurance.

So, I take it you're paying ALL your living expenses out of your own pocket (housing, food, transportation, utilities, etc., etc., etc.), not receiving any cash or subsidies from family, financial aid, etc., and then, despite having an income hovering just above the U.S. poverty level, paying 17% of your annual income for something you may never use? Oh yeah--How many dependents do you have?

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[peregrinerose 0]

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My advice, college girl, is that in the future, you try to refrain from comparing yourself to people living in the real world.

Do you know her situation? Don't be so quick to judge if you don't know her personally. I put myself through college and grad school and paid all of my expenses making $10-$15K/year for 8 years. It sucked, it was very tight money wise, but it is do-able.

I agree with many of the others, it is about where you choose to spend your money. There is lower cost health care available, plus state aid if your income is that low (depending on your state). It may not be great coverage, but in the event of major injury would be better than nothing at all. Cut out some expenses, pick up a little extra money at a side job, there's always a way.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Douva 0]

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My advice, college girl, is that in the future, you try to refrain from comparing yourself to people living in the real world.

Do you know her situation? Don't be so quick to judge if you don't know her personally. I put myself through college and grad school and paid all of my expenses making $10-$15K/year for 8 years. It sucked, it was very tight money wise, but it is do-able.

I agree with many of the others, it is about where you choose to spend your money. There is lower cost health care available, plus state aid if your income is that low (depending on your state). It may not be great coverage, but in the event of major injury would be better than nothing at all. Cut out some expenses, pick up a little extra money at a side job, there's always a way.

I'd already decided that line was a little harsh and removed it before you responded, but I still maintain that people living in the real world can't afford to spend $1,948 per year on health insurance when their annual income is only $12,000. That may work for someone receiving money from home or living in student housing or sharing a three bedroom house with five other people, but it doesn't work for someone paying the living expenses the rest of us face, and it certainly doesn't work for a single parent.

I hear a lot of people suggesting other people take second jobs or indefinitely give up recreational activities to pay for health insurance, but I've yet to hear from anyone who's done this. Have any of you considered the possibility that some people value having free time to spend unwinding with family and friends, over having the financial security offered by health insurance? If you're making $12,000 a year, most hospitals will cut you a deal on your medical bills, just to make sure you don't stiff them, and as I said before, they'll work with you on a payment plan. And quite honestly, if the hospital tries to be a hard ass about it, taking bankruptcy isn't going to dramatically impact somebody who only makes $12,000 a year. So why should these people who are already busting their asses for measly pay bust their asses even harder just to pay into a high deductible insurance plan they may never use?

EDITED TO ADD: And how exactly does she pay all her living expenses, plus $1,948/year on health insurance, AND afford to jump out of airplanes? That kind of math doesn't work in the real world.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[SBS 0]

It comes down to the fact that whether it is right or not, in this country we are responsible for our own health care. That is whether we find it through a job, or we pay for it ourselves, or apply for the state aide that some here have mentioned.

We make choices in life, and when someone chooses to take part in an extreme sport and additionally make that their living, they know the risks. As such, one SHOULD have health insurance. If it's important enough, you find a job that provides it. If it's not, then you don't have the right to look at those who have chosen another path to pay for it for you. That doesn't mean that you have to make 6 figures. I made $20k a year and my employer provided it when I worked in the skydiving industry. If you chose a career or an employer that does not provide insurance, you are aware of the risk, and you need to be responsible for that risk.

-S

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I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[SBS 0]

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or sharing a three bedroom house with five other people,

You say that as if there is something wrong with it. I see this as a perfect example of an exchange. "I could live in a small place by myself and not have health insurance, or I could live in a 3 bedroom house with 5 other people and have insurance".

That's called making a responsible decision.

-S

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I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[Douva 0]

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If you chose a career or an employer that does not provide insurance, you are aware of the risk, and you need to be responsible for that risk.

Sorry, Steve, but I don't buy that. There are a lot of employers that don't offer health insurance, most of whom employee lower income persons. To say to those workers who, in many cases, are lucky just to have jobs, that they have made the choice to not have health insurance is ridiculous. They've chosen the only option available to them, and health insurance wasn't included.

I think it's equally ridiculous for a bunch of people who have either employer provided health insurance or sufficient income to easily buy their own health insurance to tell people who can't easily afford health insurance which recreational activities they're allowed to participate in.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Douva 0]

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or sharing a three bedroom house with five other people,

You say that as if there is something wrong with it. I see this as a perfect example of an exchange. "I could live in a small place by myself and not have health insurance, or I could live in a 3 bedroom house with 5 other people and have insurance".

That's called making a responsible decision.

-S

I could live alone, have space and time to myself to unwind after work, always be able to take a shower when I get home, and always get a good night's sleep, or I could endure never having any alone time, never knowing if I'm going to be able to take a shower when I get home, and rolling the dice every night on whether or not I'll get a good night's sleep, all for the sake of having health insurance I may never use. Hmmm?????

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[SBS 0]

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There are a lot of employers that don't offer health insurance, most of whom employee lower income persons.

How many of those people are skydivers? We began this discussion regarding health insurance for skydiving instructors...not burger flippers at McDonalds or people who work in fields picking strawberries.

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tell people who can't easily afford health insurance which recreational activities they're allowed to participate in.

I'm not telling anybody what they CAN or CANNOT do. I'm just saying that if they choose to do it, then they need to be responsible for the possible outcomes. They are welcome to do whatever they want, but not hold anyone accountable but themselves.

-S

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I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[ladyskydiver 0]

So...because I made the decision to go back to school, I'm not living in the real world? As has been stated, you do not know my financial situation beyond what I have stated so do not assume to know what this "college girl" does. Oh...and get it right...woman is the correct term.

I made the decision to go back to school after having calculated the budgetary restraints that doing so would put on me. It's choices like buying generic instead of name brand, not going out to eat as much as I'd enjoy, cutting back on jumping, etc. Again, as I stated earlier, it's about CHOICES. Each person makes the choices of what they are going to spend their money on. Their choices dictate what they can "afford" to buy or not. If a person DECIDES they want insurance, they will make the required CHOICES to do so.

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If you're making $12,000 a year, most hospitals will cut you a deal on your medical bills, just to make sure you don't stiff them, and as I said before, they'll work with you on a payment plan. And quite honestly, if the hospital tries to be a hard ass about it, taking bankruptcy isn't going to dramatically impact somebody who only makes $12,000 a year. So why should these people who are already busting their asses for measly pay bust their asses even harder just to pay into a high deductible insurance plan they may never use?

The hospitals do not cut me a deal on my bills - nor do I ask for them. I'm still paying off the insurance deductible from my surgery last year - through a payment plan - and they will get the FULL amount that I owe them.

As for your comment about "BUSTING THEIR ASSES EVEN HARDER..." I bust my ass every single day that I work...I could work more - if I didn't want sleep. Again, a choice that I have made which dictates other things that I am capable of doing.

This year, yeah...I'll make more than last year because I'll be able to work full-time during the summer. Again...a CHOICE that I have made.

And, Douva....having made the decision to go from making close to 6 figures to go back to school and make the conscious choices that I have - I'm more than qualified to talk about the real world.

edited to add since you edited your post:

Who said I'm jumping? Remember those conscious choices I've stated in multiple posts now? Well...it was my conscious choice to stop jumping until I could afford to do so and be current. I could jump once a month but I CHOOSE not to because I do not feel I would be current enough with that one jump.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[kbordson 8]

just curious why you seem to have such a harsh view on those who choose to think about their future? Twice now you have cut on those who plan and try to improve their condition? (granted wildcard was maybe a bit over the top and grumpy being post call..). but you try to empathize with those without .... all the while dismissing him as a whiny "six figured" playboy type. Guess what? It's an ignorant view.

Do you think Dr.s get paid in Medical school? NO! In fact, the student loans can quickly add up to $300k (including undergrad, medical school) if just doing student loans. Then in residency... you make anywhere between 25-50k/yr depending on specialty and locaiton. And for that you work between 60-80hrs /wk. Then you go out and practice.... you might make six figures... unless you're a pediatrician or even some family practice.... So, no, you're off base on your assumptions.

And then the doctors have to treat EVERY one that walks in the ER with an emergency, IRREGARDLESS of their ability to pay. But guess what.... it's HONESTLY what most WANT to do. Most go to medical school to HELP people... not make the benjamins (that's what the computer industry is for now) But there are some that walk away from their medical debts... it happens. But then look at the dr, with quarter mil in student loans that you CANT walk from (wont be erased even with bancrupcy) and then limit their income to pay that.... Maybe some do get paid too much... but for most it's not the money hand over fist that you might imagine. (especially if you add in the cost of liability insurance)

Insurance is a difficult topic. Be it health, life, disability or liability.... it's taking a gamble or giving your money to someone else to take that gamble. Either way.... it's a personal choice. Either answer might be "right" for that individual... but then that person has to accept responsibility for decisions made in his/her life.