Rear riser landing with brakes stowed - good idea or bad idea?

[mik 2]

So a friend of my recently had her first mal. Background - she was packing, got disturbed, went away from the pack job and returned and packed what sounds like some kind of step through (I did not see it). Did a hop and pop, found one riser twisted 180 degrees, could not release brakes so chopped and landed safely on her reserve.

Someone who has something like a part time safety officer role (I think it is rotated between people) told her she should have considered a rear riser landing.

Other relevant information

- she has relatively low jump numbers (I think about 250 ish)

- this year completed a canopy control course with one of the top european schools (the course introduces the concept of rear riser landings - with brakes unstowed - but students are not required to try them)

- she has recently (within the last 40 jumps) downsized to I think a Pilot 150 (not sure of wing loading but it will not be very high)

- she jumps at a high altitude drop zone (I think about 5,000 feet asl, or thereabouts) which can be hot at this time of the year (maybe high 20s centigrade)

Comments welcome.

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

[phoenixlpr 0]

I think we have that friend in common.
She did the right thing. There is a good reason to carry a reserve canopy and that was the right call.

She has released the left toggle and could not release the right.

Flairing that canopy with one break open, other is stowed and do with a risers could be really tricking. There was a risk to turn into terrain or have a stall.

[AndyMan 7]

I think landing on risers is an excellent skill to have, one that I've done both for fun and necessity. I was happy that the first time I had to do it, I knew what to expect.

As to whether it's appropriate for that individual is a choice that she should make for herself. Ultimately doing a manuever like this takes confidence in the pilots landing skill, something she likely built up in the canopy course.

I do think every jumper with more than 100 jumps should know it's a viable option.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I do think every jumper with more than 100 jumps should know it's a viable option.

Disagree. I go for plan B if I have one brake open and other is jammed.

Rear riser landing are for a clean and fine situation.

[AggieDave 6]

What about explaining to jumpers how to twist their risers to roll the step through lower. That will give you access to your toggles. Its worked on the various systems in which packers gave me a step-through (or failed to fix it prior to packing). This includes tandems with the LONG toggles.

The dozen or so jumps in which I've had a step-through, I've never had to chop it. I can't fathom having to chop that unless there is some other malfunction occurring as well, although YMMV.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AndyMan 7]

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I do think every jumper with more than 100 jumps should know it's a viable option.

Disagree. I go for plan B if I have one brake open and other is jammed.

You disagree that people should know it's a viable option?

Really?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[theonlyski 3]

How was one riser 180 degrees twisted with no canopy being deformed, and how would you not notice that your riser is backwards on your pre-jump checks... not seeing 3 rings on one side should be pretty obvious.

Who would cutaway one riser and flip it?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[JohnRich 4]

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Disagree. I go for plan B if I have one brake open and other is jammed.

He didn't ask what YOU would do in YOUR circumstances.

He asked what SHE could have done in HER circumstances.

All things are not equal between you.

[councilman24 36]

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I do think every jumper with more than 100 jumps should know it's a viable option.

Disagree. I go for plan B if I have one brake open and other is jammed.

Rear riser landing are for a clean and fine situation.

Using your last chance to live. It's not exchanging a challenging landing for a perfect canopy and landing. It's exchanging a challenging landing for a CHANCE at a perfect canopy and so-so landing under a canopy that may be undersized and unfamiliar design and handling.

If one brake is loose (not the original post) and one isn't because it's twisted up, then you may have the need to chop it due to the turn/spin being induced and the challenge of controlling one and not the other. IF it's not spinning another option is to cut the trapped brakeline, getting you a symetrical canopy for rear riser landing. Yes, I know this is more challenging than most believe and probably impossible if spinning.

I just hate seeing someone using their last chance to live when what is above their head is landable, with a little work. There is no Plan C through Z.

BTW, I never tell someone who cutaway that they did something wrong. I wasn't there. I do try to discuss it if other options may have been available.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Using your last chance to live. It's not exchanging a challenging landing for a perfect canopy and landing.

I did before and that was stupid.

A canopy with control problems is not perfect.

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I just hate seeing someone using their last chance to live when what is above their head is landable, with a little work. There is no Plan C through Z.

I hate to see people getting hurt or hospitalized because they are more interested in mid-aid rigging or doing stupid stunts they have not practiced before.

Have you ever practiced landing a canopy with one open break, other is stowed and flare with rears?

[muz 1]

I agree if she had been able to free both toggles she should probably have tried to land with risers (though cutting one brake line might not come to mind to the inexperienced jumper - like me).
I think she did the right thing in HER situation. 2 weeks ago I was under canopy, and just before I released the toggles I thought...mmmh I don't think I've ever flown this thing in rears with the brakes set. When I tried to flare I noticed 2 things: 1) I didn't get much lift during flare and 2) the canopy stalled with very little riser input...
So I think landing in rears with brakes set is quite a bit trickier than in full glide. Just my 2c.
I jump a Triathlon 160 @ 1.1 and realise things may be very different on 9 cells / higher WLs.

[councilman24 36]

The original post was NOT one free and one stuck. And if I couldn't get it flying straight with no input easily I would cut it away also. And I agree too many people get hurt not using their reserve.

But I still think too many people use it when they don't need to. (Don't know about this case.)

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[flydog 0]

Just asking an abstract question to see thought processes.

If one brake is released and one cant be you say dont try to land with one toggle and one riser. You cant land with both risers due to one brake released. How about restowing that brake and using risers then.

Just looking for responses.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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How about restowing that brake and using risers then.

You may have 120 seconds before landing. You have gloves on and altimeter on your left wrist.

Is restowing a real option?

[billvon 2,400]

>You cant land with both risers due to one brake released. How
>about restowing that brake and using risers then.

"Restowing" is difficult (I've tried it.) If you want to land with one brake released and one free, you can wrap the free line around the riser, grab the wrapped riser/toggle and pull the entire thing down.

I would also strongly suggest that anyone who wants to consider this option for landing try it first. Choose a perfect day (moderate winds, soft landing area) and practice up high first. Find out how far you can pull the risers without stalling (it won't be far.) Then land and prepare to do a good PLF.

I've landed with stuck toggles on larger canopies (150+ sq ft) and cut away from stuck toggles on smaller canopies (109 sq ft.) For me it depends on what I'm doing. If I'm doing video, there's no wind and I have a small canopy, I'm probably going to cut away, because the odds of injury landing the small main like that are high. If it's a bigger canopy, the winds are reasonable etc I'm a lot more likely to try to land it.

[D22369 0]

You may have 120 seconds before landing. You have gloves on and altimeter on your left wrist.

Is restowing a real option? ***

I have held one toggle in my teeth while using both hands to release a stuck toggle, it was pretty easy to do, restowing though... might be a bit tricky.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[divnswoop 0]

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The dozen or so jumps in which I've had a step-through,

Seriously? Dozen or so? Sad that you have had that many.

[AggieDave 6]

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The dozen or so jumps in which I've had a step-through,

Seriously? Dozen or so? Sad that you have had that many.

Yeah, but that is the price you pay when you pay packers for a majority of your last 1000 or so packjobs. There are still some packers who care, but they seem to be fewer and farther between. "You paid for the packjob, not the opening..." How many times have you heard that?

As of such I have yet to pack myself a malfunction and I never packed anyone a malfunction (back when I was a packer for a couple of years). (*knocks wood*)

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,400]

>There are still some packers who care, but they seem to be fewer
>and farther between.

Fortunately, you can choose not to use such packers.

[jsaxton 0]

I'll land a step-through BELOW the slider, but I don't see hou you could land a step-through ABIVE the slider.

[mjosparky 3]

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Have you ever practiced landing a canopy with one open break, other is stowed and flare with rears?

No but I have hooked knife the fouled break and landed on risers. If you carry a hook knife in a easily accessible place on you gear/jumpsuit and you include going to your hook knife as part of your mental EP practice it can be done is a matter of seconds.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[AggieDave 6]

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I'll land a step-through BELOW the slider, but I don't see hou you could land a step-through ABIVE the slider.

Thank you, that's what I was talking about and forgot to differentiate.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[riggerrob 558]

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I'll land a step-through BELOW the slider, but I don't see how you could land a step-through ABOVE the slider.

Thank you, that's what I was talking about and forgot to differentiate.

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Last month I landed a tandem with a step-through BELOW the slider. There was bit more friction on the steering lines, but I still got a decent landing.

[riggerrob 558]

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I agree if she had been able to free both toggles she should probably have tried to land with risers (though cutting one brake line might not come to mind to the inexperienced jumper - like me).
I think she did the right thing in HER situation. 2 weeks ago I was under canopy, and just before I released the toggles I thought...mmmh I don't think I've ever flown this thing in rears with the brakes set. When I tried to flare I noticed 2 things: 1) I didn't get much lift during flare and 2) the canopy stalled with very little riser input...
So I think landing in rears with brakes set is quite a bit trickier than in full glide. Just my 2c.
I jump a Triathlon 160 @ 1.1 and realise things may be very different on 9 cells / higher WLs.

.............................................................................................

Dozens of times, I landed my Cruislite 220 with toggles stowed and most of them were stand-ups. That was because I was too lazy to re-stow the brakes while packing.

Last month I tried landing my Stiletto 135 - with the brakes released - only using rear risers. It stalled as my feet slid across the ground, dropping me flat on my back. There was so little energy remaining that the only thing injured was my ego.
Conclusion: I could land a Stiletto 135 on rear risers.

Similalrly, I have practiced rear riser flares with tandems and concluded that I could survive a rear-riser flare with a 100 pound Japanese girl on the front, but would probably break bones with a 200 pound student.

[headoverheels 291]

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Last month I landed a tandem with a step-through BELOW the slider. There was bit more friction on the steering lines, but I still got a decent landing.

Isn't there a concern that the friction would keep the line down, when you try to let it up?