Reserve - Bigger or smaller than the main??

[CaptFrank2001 0]

I'm a fairly new jumper and have a question for the more experienced.

Is there any formula or recommended way to choose your reserve canopy size. I see a million variations. It seems that guys with bigger mains like mine (Silouette-230). Typically go with smaller reserves (PD-193).

But as canopies get smaller, such as in the 90-130 range the reserves get bigger. But not always, it seems about 50/50.

Is there any rhyme or reason to this. Is it all just a big guess, based on container size or personal preference.

Thanks in advance (TIA) for any info or insight into this.

Capt. Frank

737 Captain, US ATP, Japanese ATPL, Flt. Engineer, POPS-9846, US Navy Retired - Submarine Veteran.

[billvon 2,416]

>Is there any formula or recommended way to choose your reserve canopy size.

Yep. The best way is to demo several sizes, and get the size that you can land on rocky ground, going downwind, without injury.

Some other guidelines -

NEVER get a reserve smaller than the smallest canopy you have jumped.

If you have an AAD, get a reserve that will land you survivably if you never touch the toggles. (hard to steer if you're unconscious, which is when most people think they need an AAD)

Experiments have shown that same-sized mains and reserves fly best together during a two-out, but even radically differently sized mains/reserves will usually do OK together.

>I see a million variations. It seems that guys with bigger mains like
>mine (Silouette-230). Typically go with smaller reserves (PD-193).

>But as canopies get smaller, such as in the 90-130 range the
>reserves get bigger. But not always, it seems about 50/50.

This may be experience talking. My first rig had a PD-190 and a PD-160 reserve. I had never jumped anything as small as a 160 when I got it, which was a mistake on my part.

Now I have 4600 jumps, and my next rig will likely have a PD-143R (which is larger than what I have now) and a 99 square foot main. There have been times I wished I had a smaller main, but I have never, ever wished I had a smaller reserve.

[leapdog 0]

I have always told my coach student to have a equal size or larger than the main. My reasoning is that you are in an emergency when you cutaway. why would want to downsize and learn to fly a smaller and different canopy at that moment?

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[riggerrob 558]

Part of the reason is that reserve technology has not kept pace with main development.
Skydivers are willing to tolerate a variety of scary opening characteristics on mains (i.e. uncurable line twists) that they would never tolerate on reserves.
The FAA TSO system has a lengthy list of opening characteristics (time, distance, maximum shock loading, able to open even with line twists, etc.).
As a result, you can buy a 66 square foot main, but the smallest reserve is 97 square feet and was only designed for tiny, Japanese women.

Large, hairy, white men jumping tiny reserves just look silly!

[brettski74 0]

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Yep. The best way is to demo several sizes, and get the size that you can land on rocky ground, going downwind, without injury.

I'm assuming that you're talking about demoing several different size mains and then choosing a reserve of a similar size? Reserves are normally designed to be more docile than mains, no? eg. 7-cell instead of 9-cell. Less elliptical or not ellicptical at all - that kind of thing - so they would likely fly quite differently to your main.

Is it possible to get demo rigs that have a reserve canopy hooked up as the main? I'm always wondering what my PD-176R will fly like if I ever have to use it.

Quote

This may be experience talking. My first rig had a PD-190 and a PD-160 reserve. I had never jumped anything as small as a 160 when I got it, which was a mistake on my part.

Wondered about that as well - with the why? My main is a PD-210 and my reserve is a PD-176R. I've flown a Safire2 179 before... once... a while ago... It was fine and I landed great, and I doubt the PD-176R will be as aggressive to fly, but still I wonder.

For those of you lucky enough to have had a reserve ride, how did you find the reserve performed as a wing - particularly when landing?

[pilotdave 0]

Yes, you can order a reserve demo (set up as a main) from PD.

I have no "real" reserve rides, but I was VERY happy with my PD143 demo. Landed great.

Dave

[Jumpah 0]

This may also help you with your decision:

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf

It also ties in with some other posts in this thread.

[councilman24 36]

What Bill said plus......

I think part of our thought processes have grown out of history. When ramair reserve were first marketed they were small by definition. The materials and construction techniques made them pack large for their size compared to todays 0-3 cfm fabric. So we got used to reserves being smaller than many of the mains. Realize that NONE of the canopies performed as todays 7 cell non zp canopies do today. As techniques and designs changed larger non zp mains for students, big boys, and people who didn't like crashing were designed. Along with these were similarly sized reserves. Lets use the Ravens and Falcons as an example. Theser were non zp 7 and 9 cell canopies by Precision that were marketed as mains as well as approved and marketed as reserves. In this case you could have the exact same canopy as a main and a reserve a for awhile many people did. But, non zp fabric canopy performance degrades with time and increase in permiability of the fabric through use. So, your brand new non zp 181 reserve flew and landed a lot better than your ragged out 800 jump non zp 181 main of the same make. In this case the smaller reserve actually did a better job of landing you than your bigger main.

Enter zp and all bets are off. The zp canopy fabric doesn't increase in permiability with use and maintains it's performce. As well has having better performance. In the non zp days the smallest mains sold were about 160-170 sq.ft. And these were for the light weight girls. Then we have coming on the market zp canopies smaller and smaller loaded higher and higher. Reserve stayed non zp fabric for the most part. So we had little itty bitty mains and relatively hugh reserves, which didn't work well in modern rigs. So smaller reserves were TSO'd so the 170lb guy on the 96 main could have a 126 reserve and have a resonable looking (and even obtain a ) container that worked. Now, landing under a 126 main at that loading can be done. The material is "near zp" and can be swooped. But if your unconcious, on in a small area, it may be coming forward and down way too fast to land and live. Some people are willing to take this chance. That why Bill's statement is qualified "if you have an AAD". If you don't, you less likely to be under a reserve unconcious. You'll be dead already.

Also, these small reserve may not be approved for the weight on them.

So the reserve size really has no relationship to the higher performance mains of today. It should be sized independantly and appropriately, and then see what it takes to get a rig to hold it and the pocket rocket main. For new jumpers on larger mains the descrepency isn't as great. And if your still jumping a non zp main you probably can have a reserve smaller because you don't want to jump a worn out non zp main that small.

So pick the reserve appropriate for your size, the main appropriate for your flying, skill level, and if newer size, and then work on putting them in a container. For the most part they are available.

Any of that make any sense?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Scoop 0]

Just for conversations sake I've also heard it said that you won't be flying your reserve in the same aggressive manner, you'd be more conservative so you could afford to go smaller than your main.

[pilotdave 0]

I don't buy that. What you do with your main or reserve at 1500 feet doesn't matter... it's what you're going to do if you have to make a low turn into a tiny off-field back yard to avoid obstacles that matters. You won't fly the reserve any different than you'd fly your main in a situation like that, so you better be flying something you're comfortable with either way.

I can think of about 3 reasons to go with a smaller reserve than main: style/comfort, container availability, and stupidity. Ok and also the idea that the reserve and main should be "compatible" sizes.

My first rig had a 150 main and 120 reserve so you can decide which category I fit in.
Seriously though, it pisses me off that many reputable container manufacturers refuse to make rigs sized for larger reserves than mains, especially in the very small sizes. I hope when PD comes out with the low pack volume reserves people start upsizing. I think PD should discontinue the 106 reserve when they can pack a 143 into the same space. I know some people will still want small reserves to go along with their small mains, and heck a 106 will pack like an 80, right? Talk about style!

Dave

[billvon 2,416]

>I've also heard it said that you won't be flying your reserve in the
>same aggressive manner, you'd be more conservative so you could
>afford to go smaller than your main.

?? You can always stop flying your main canopy aggressively if you get yourself into a tight spot. You can't just add 30 square feet to your reserve if you get into a tight spot.

Another angle - you'll almost always be landing your main in a nice landing area. You will more likely to be landing your reserve in someone's back yard, or next to a road, or in a field of corn. So get a reserve that lets you do that safely.

[billvon 2,416]

>I'm assuming that you're talking about demoing several different
>size mains and then choosing a reserve of a similar size?

No, actually I meant demo a _reserve_. Most canopy manufacturers will let you do this. Square 1 has all the PD reserves available as demos.

If you can't do that I would recommend making some jumps on a Triathalon similar in size to what your canopy will be. They fly similar to at least the PD/Aerodyne reserves.

>For those of you lucky enough to have had a reserve ride, how did
>you find the reserve performed as a wing - particularly when landing?

A lot like my Triathalon. Despite being F-111, they are almost brand new when used, and so fly something like lower performance ZP canopies (like the Tri.)

[Froggy 0]

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If you can't do that I would recommend making some jumps on a Triathalon similar in size to what your canopy will be. They fly similar to at least the PD/Aerodyne reserves.

>For those of you lucky enough to have had a reserve ride, how did
>you find the reserve performed as a wing - particularly when landing?

A lot like my Triathalon. Despite being F-111, they are almost brand new when used, and so fly something like lower performance ZP canopies (like the Tri.)

I can confirm that!

--------------
We were not born to fly. And all we can do is to try not to fall...

[377 21]

My PD 196R reserve handled very much like my Triathlon main that I had to chop. The PD flew great, nice easy standup landing. Couldn't ask for more.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

If you have an AAD, get a reserve that will land you survivably if you never touch the toggles. (hard to steer if you're unconscious, which is when most people think they need an AAD)

We really don't have much to help us decide how big a reserve is needed to accomplish this goal of being able to land unconscious and survive. Bigger is better in this regard, and some will say that a WL of 1:1 will be OK, but there is only limited experience on which to make a conclusion.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[jimmytavino 16]

my Javelin J-5 already dismisses me from the "smallgear" side of the table...
and I have no problem with that...
TINY gear is NOT a high priority for me....
I have a 210 Main
and a 225 reserve
and I like that combination....JUST FINE..
MY first reserve ride on that particular canopy, ( 225) was after a dislocated right shoulder....
even with a totally "uneven flare".. it put me down just fine....
small is cool for some people and to each his own..... but for me, bigger is better.
jmy

• Quote

[azureriders 0]

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For those of you lucky enough to have had a reserve ride, how did you find the reserve performed as a wing - particularly when landing?

I would have to agree with the others that have said similar to a Triathlon. Although I prefer my spectre over the Triathlons that I have jumped, they do fly similar. On my cutaway, I had just enough time for a long run, short base and final. So there was no time for a lot of (any) practice up high. I flew, and landed, the smart 220 just as if it were my Spectre 230. I was very impressed.

[riggerrob 558]

Also remember that the vast majority of reserves are rectangular 7-cells, and Triathlon is the only main - still selling - that matches that description.
CReW canopies are the only modern mains that have much in common with modern reserves.
Up until a few years ago, many BASE jumpers used stock reserves, but now have gotten into specialized canopies with bottom skin vents, etc.
The bottom line is that Safires have little in common with reserves and even tapered 7-celled mains have lighter toggle pressure, faster response, etc. than reserves.
Your best bet is still to ask PD - or another reserve manufacturer - to loan you a reserve canopy to demo and figure out for your self what is a sensible size reserve to match your weight and skill.

For example: the primary reason I have an Amigo 172 reserve in my sport rig is because FFE loaned me an Amigo 206 demo canopy and I concluded that it handled much like the Sabre Mark One mains that I was jumping back in those days. My last reserve ride confirmed that an Amigo 172 handles much like a Sabre 1-170.

[brettski74 0]

I'll check it out when I'm in AZ in January. I'm sure the gear store will have demo rigs, and Aerodyne will apparently be there showing off Triathlons, too.

[Scoop 0]

Yeah, I don't buy it either, however my reserve is marginally smaller than my main (10 sq ft) but thats what was available at the time (second hand) and its still a big ol' barge at 200 sq ft

[Remster 24]

Quote

and Triathlon is the only main - still selling - that matches that description.

Rob : didnt they redesign the Tri to be tapered about 1 year ago?

Remster

[meandean 0]

Triathlon is the only main - still selling - that matches that description.
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What about the PD Lightning?

[JohanW 0]

The Aerodyne website lists the Tri as having a planform factor of 0.00. That means it's square.

If they redesigned it, they didn't tell anybody who told me, and they didn't update the website.

Johan.
I am. I think.