Do bad spots really exist?

[Paulipod 0]

Have heard plenty of people now refer to being given a 'bad spot' and landing off as a result... just wondering what people think about this, as I have always taken it as my responsibility to decide if I can see the DZ before I jump.

My main reason for asking, is that on the occasions where I was not happy to jump... people have been upset at having to fly round or wait for me.

Have seen alot of people herd out of the plane like sheep without knowing where they are! What dya reckon? Should I hold people up?

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

[AggieDave 6]

Oh, hell ya there are! Actually, I'm a very good spotter (jump at a GPS-less DZ and have for most of my jumping career), but when I'm at an unfamilar DZ, I can't always tell where I am, I have to trust the spot. So far that has cost me 2 off landings, one only just off the DZ and the other almost 3 miles off the DZ.

It can happen and eventually it will happen to you, no matter how careful you are.

At very large DZs, like Eloy, you've really got to trust the pilot and go, especially since there very well may be another load (or 2 or 3 or 4) running on a parrallel jump run, or a jump run right after your load. They usually have the spots down to a science with their GPS and if you and a couple other groups hold in the door, you can really screw a lot of people and burn a lot of $$ in Jet-A.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[PhreeZone 15]

At some DZ's there are no go arounds. If you don't hop out when the spot is good, then you ride the plane down, simple as that. Jumping with a large group as a diver I have to trust the floaters to check the spot since I can't see out of the plane. With less then Ideal conditions its easy to have a bad spot if there is too much cloud cover, winds have shifted of a dozen other factors alone.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[trfenwyd 0]

learn to spot and learn well.....Been at a couple of dz's that were used to loran or gps, and still couldn't get it quite right. It's always a good idea to check before you jump....

in vino veritas-
(there is truth in wine)

[diverdriver 5]

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learn to spot and learn well.....Been at a couple of dz's that were used to loran or gps, and still couldn't get it quite right. It's always a good idea to check before you jump....

GPS is a tool. If yah can't spot with your eyeballs then you probably can't spot with a GPS either. It's an understanding of looking straight down (not as easy as it may sound) and knowing what the upper winds are doing, knowing how many people/groups you have on board, knowing how they will all be effected differently in drift if they are doing different disciplines, and knowing seperation between groups from the groundspeed indication (not easy to do with eyeballs from 14k).

I've had people stop in the door when I was flying the Otter. The problem is, they don't know what they are looking for. I had someone call a go around after the first group went out and we were only .5 mile away with 40 knot uppers! Sheesh, the freefall drift alone will put you at .3 away from the middle of the landing area. If you can't make the landing area then you shouldn't be jumping.

It's all a growing relationship with you, your spotter, and your jump pilot. If something isn't working out then something needs to change. But I, and other pilots, who jump and truly understand freefall drift are capable of spotting well. You should always ask questions before going up when visiting a new DZ or getting on with a new Jump Pilot. Make sure you both understand what to expect from each other on jump run. It will clear up a lot of possible confusion at a high stress time and you will know what to expect when you DO look out the door for other traffic below backing up the pilot's contact with ATC.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Come to Vichy, just don't ask the jet to do a go around...

IMHO (and I've had a few off landings in my time for a multitude of reasons), its better to be prepared for off landings. Ergo I jump a main and a reserve that I KNOW I can put down in a backyard, next to a highway, in a forest clearing etc....

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[kallend 1,623]

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learn to spot and learn well.....Been at a couple of dz's that were used to loran or gps, and still couldn't get it quite right. It's always a good idea to check before you jump....

GPS is a tool. If yah can't spot with your eyeballs then you probably can't spot with a GPS either. It's an understanding of looking straight down (not as easy as it may sound) and knowing what the upper winds are doing, knowing how many people/groups you have on board, knowing how they will all be effected differently in drift if they are doing different disciplines, and knowing seperation between groups from the groundspeed indication (not easy to do with eyeballs from 14k).

Chris

You do this (very very well!!) because you are a nerd and you enjoy thinking about about it and executing it. I don't believe many jump pilots or skydivers have the same interest as you do. If they did, there would be dozens of web sites devoted to the issue, not just yours.

PS nerds RULE!

[Samurai136 0]

There are no bad spots. Only bad spotters.

If the guy at the door doesn't look straight down and along the flight line a bit, he is a bad spotter. Kick his ass out the door immeadiately.

If the guy at the door hasn't figured out 'the spot' by the time the exit light comes on...

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[BikerBabe 0]

OK, I may sound archaic, but one of the easiest and best ways to learn how to spot, IMHO, is to go up with someone who knows how to use them and throw a set of WDIs. Of course I'm talking from a small-DZ perspective, I understand that having a WDI pass at a large DZ isn't really feasible, but most DZ's that size are GPS equipped, anyway.

I continually see bad spots, and people that don't know how to spot, and I still wonder why people don't use WDIs anymore. Especially at non-GPS DZ's.

When you know all the info (winds aloft, etc) and use the WDI's, it will only take you a couple of times to figure out how the winds affect the spot, and you won't need to use them ever again.

There's a reason we use them at demos...

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[quade 3]

Bad spots -do- exist.

Believe it or not, it -is- possible for the winds at some locations to radically change from the time you takeoff and climb through the surface winds to the time you get to full altitude.

This might only be a period of about 10 minutes, but it certainly -can- happen. When it does, all bets are off for a good spot.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[drenaline 0]

Years ago in a 100-way 2 points record, the skydivers exited in a bad spot, almost all the 100-way had to land in the golf course, stores parking lots etc. I think my friend told me it was in Z-hills (he landed in the parking lot).

Bad spots do exists.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[Chief 0]

Yes, bad spots do exist. As do bad spotters. As mentioned, it is all team work, spotter + pilot + skydiver. On larger planes (otters) with larger groups and several 8, 6 and /or 4 ways, you can not have your own spot, nor a second pass. Pilot and first one out the door should have your confidence in finding the "right" spot.

[diverdriver 5]

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On larger planes (otters) with larger groups and several 8, 6 and /or 4 ways, you can not have your own spot, nor a second pass.

Whooa...never said they couldn't have a second pass. I give them. You might hear me grumble. But I do give second passes in the otter. There are even times when I'll agree that a second pass is necessary. Sometimes jumpers will continue to exit after I have turned the lights off. Ahh well. I tried.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[LouDiamond 1]

I think divedrivers explanation is the best answer to the question and to some extent so are those who said that there are indeed bad spots. What this really boils down to is realizing that it's YOUR responsibility to ensure you know what the spot is.

As diver driver said, a GPS is a tool. If you calculate the winds incorrectly then the coordinates you plug into your GPS will be just as wrong. Most DZ's post the winds/direction at altitude ,usually every 1000 ft up to 12 and then every 2 thousands,on a board by manifest. Some of you are probablly shaking your head east to west and some north to south. Regardless, if you ask for the winds the manifest should have them available and you can calculate winds your self. Granted this takes a bit of math and knowledge of formulas but after awhile, you should be able to look at the winds and see any potential problems. The rest is math and looking at a map to accurately figure the release point.

Now your thinking to yourself.."whats this guy talking about?" This is the part that requires effort on your part. If what I'm saying sounds like Mandarin Chineese then maybe you should devote a little time into finding out what I'm talking about. If there is no one on the DZ that can explain it to you then there are books that can...it's not rocket science. If you can spend X amount of time on learning how to perfect your skydiving be it RW, FF, Swooping etc then you should also consider learning about winds and spotting a basic skill.

Now your thinking "what if I'm not at the door?" All DZs have land marks that are used at altitude. Ask a local what they are and become familiar with them. At a minimum look at the big photo most DZs have of the DZ and surrounding area. You can still look out windows so you stay oriented and have an idea of where you are in reference to the DZ.

This is starting to sound like work eh? Remember it's your life and YOUR responsible for it.

If your in the door looking down and you don't see the dz or don't like the current A/C course then give corrections either left or right in 5 degree increments via the buttons or mouth.You can also ask for ground speed to SWAG the seperation between groups. Some pilots will work with you others simply fly the plane and do what they want. If you don't like what you see then step out of the door and take a seat and let the sheep follow the green light.

Now your thinking.."this guy is smoking crack" He obviously doesn't jump out of a X plane. Last time I checked as you move to the door you can get a look out the window or door and get an idea where you are. If you get out an know your long then you need to forget the dirt dive and work on getting back to the DZ.

"Man, wheres the fun in all that?" The fun is in making it back to the DZ safe and in one piece. Todays canopies are pretty good about getting penetration so if you find yourself out then you should do that pilot stuff and fly your canopy.

OK REALITY CHECK: SHIT HAPPENS. This is not a be all, end all to avoid a off DZ landings. But it does cut the chances down. These techniques are regularly used by the Military for HALO operations, at night, with equipment and O2 and a F111 canopy larger than most tandem rigs out there. Now that also doesn't mean the Military never lands off, they do sometimes.

So take the time to find out the winds before you get on the plane. Look for land marks on the ride up or as you move towards the door and while your in free fall. If your long then fly your body, guard your altitude and dump higher than you normaly would(keeping safety in mind always) and get into rear risers once under canopy(situation dependant).

Most importantly: remember YOU are responsible for YOU and no one else. So take care of your self

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Ducky 0]

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They usually have the spots down to a science with their GPS and if you and a couple other groups hold in the door, you can really screw a lot of people and burn a lot of $$ in Jet-A.

hehee yeah my worst spot to date was exactly this some schmuck taking almost 20 seconds on an already loooong jump run to get in the door for a SOLO! I barely made it back to the end of the runway.


kwak

Sometimes your the bug, sometimes your the windshield. Sometimes your the hammer sometimes your the nail. Question is Hun, Do you wanna get hammered or do you wanna get nailed?????

[darkwing 4]

I figure that bad spots are part of the adventure. Also, they are one reason I use fairly conservative gear. As someone said, you never know when you will have to land in a back yard.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[quade 3]

One additional note.

It is possible for the "team" to screw up a perfect good spot by taking -way- too long in the door. Usually this happens on a much larger group, say a 20-way wherein I've spoted the load normally and they take some -extremely long- time getting ready in the door. Maybe somebody is confused on grips or maybe somebody has one last little hitch in their gear they're trying to fix, but if the time in the door is exceedingly long -- again, all bets are off.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[diverdriver 5]

I'm just wondering why you keep using "your" instead of "you're" which means YOU ARE.

Chris

[LouDiamond 1]

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I'm just wondering why you keep using "your" instead of "you're" which means YOU ARE.

Chris

I want to see if your paying attention

cough cough no ..really ahhh. I was suffering from hypoxia? My finger slipped?....yEAh thats the ticket,yeah

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[CanEHdian 0]

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It is possible for the "team" to screw up a perfect good spot by taking -way- too long in the door

Hmmmm... as a f/flyer that's often in the back of the plane, I'm sooo tempted to comment on this...

...but I'll leave it at a very good point on Quade's part!

Cheers,
CanEHdian

Time's flying, and so am I...
(69-way, 108-way and 138/142-way Freefly World Records)

[quade 3]

Hmmm, in my experience most freeflyers get in first and sit at the -front- of the plane.

BTW, there's no law that says you can't take a go-around if the people exiting first take too long.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[PhreeZone 15]

>BTW, there's no law that says you can't take a go-around if the people exiting first take too long.

Tell the C130 they need to make another go round since the spots a tad long.. or any plane at WFFC... You'll be laughed right out of the plane. There are a lot of times that second passes are not an option due to the flight schedules, ATC issues, or other situations. Ask the pilot before take off if go arounds are an option before you assume they are.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[novacaine 0]

Well, the only bad spot I've had in my early jump career happened on my 10th jump. I was flying in the DZ's C-182. I was the only student jumping this day, so the plane was loaded with seasoned vets. There was another plane in the air (C-208) with seasoned jumpers. Both planes were planning an 8-way. Since I was the student (this occurred before I know how to spot), The JM told me to exsit the aircaft. There was some low cloud coverage, so I couldn't see the DZ. But the JM assured me the DZ was below the plane. So stupid me leaped out of the plane. I landed 8 miles from the DZ. When I made it back to the DZ, after a long walk and a kind motorist, the JM apologies to me for the shitty spot. He was more concerned with catching up to the 208, and doing the 8-way.
For me, the answer is yes. Bad spots do exsit, if Jms have other things on their minds.

[Remster 24]

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Tell the C130

yea... every damm weekend I have that probelm....

Remster

[riggerrob 558]

Yes,
bad spots do exist, sometimes even when I am spotting.
For example, on my 4001 st jump.
I had a first jump student who had been trained by another instructor the day before.
To say that this student was not very bright would be generous. I was seriously wondering whether he had smoked a joint in the parking lot, the dreadlocks were a hint.
I almost had to re-teach the first jump course to cover all the gaps that he could not remember from the day before.
As we flew over the DZ, I told him to climb out, Then I "nudged" his foot off the step, since he was taking his sweet time. He did not let go until I yelled "GO!" in his face for the fourth time.
By this time we were halfway down the runway.
Then I made the mistake of letting the two PFF grads jump before me.
By this point we over the far end of the runway.
To top things off, my main canopy decided to spin violently after opening, so I elected to land beside my freebag, which landed just off airport property, beyond the wrong end of the runway.
The morale of the story is> expect students to act like idiots and be mentally prepared to ride the plane down.