Incident repsonce teams - was: Tandem fatality Garretsville Oh 9/19/09

[liftedtitan 0]

Excuse my ignorance, but why is some police officer doing an investigation on a skydiving accident? Shouldnt it be someone who knows a great deal about the sport? Who knows they might untangle what was wrong, or screw up the rig giving a false sense of what happened. Why dont they do an investigation along side of a professional?

Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt.

[BMFin 0]

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Excuse my ignorance, but why is some police officer doing an investigation on a skydiving accident? Shouldnt it be someone who knows a great deal about the sport? Who knows they might untangle what was wrong, or screw up the rig giving a false sense of what happened. Why dont they do an investigation along side of a professional?

Im sure they will consult professionals when ever it is needed.

The police is obliged to perform the prejudical inquiry, just like with any other fatality to make sure there is no crime involved.

[riggerrob 561]

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Excuse my ignorance, but why is some police officer doing an investigation on a skydiving accident? Shouldnt it be someone who knows a great deal about the sport? Who knows they might untangle what was wrong, or screw up the rig giving a false sense of what happened. Why dont they do an investigation along side of a professional?

.............................................................................................

Police treat all violent deaths as murders, until evidence proves otherwise.
Police start by seizing all evidence, then have it examined by forensic scientists, etc.
In the case of parachuting accidents, police often call in Master Parachute Riggers - like me. The challenge is finding independent riggers who have no business or political connections with the deceased or their DZ or their equipment manufacturer.

For example, Canadian police called in (American) Bill Garagano to investigate the last tandem fatality in Canada because he was the only Master Rigger they could find without connections with a major tandem manufacturer or CSPA.

[NickDG 23]

>>Excuse my ignorance, but why is some police officer doing an investigation on a skydiving accident?
This is actually a really big problem in both skydiving and B.A.S.E. jumping and it's getting worse . . .

I've had some experience being first on the scene of jumping fatalities as a rigger/instructor and also after the fact and looking at the gear after it's been cut, bagged, and handled by wuffos. I've also been to more than few plane crashes as an A&P technician and saw how that works.

We jumpers operate in a gray area with no difference shown to the importance of figuring out what happened.

The first problem is with a plane crash the body(ies) can usually be removed without molesting the evidence of what went wrong. That's not true with a deceased jumper. Once EMS or police touch a fatality the evidence is forever contaminated.

When there is a major crash of an airliner the NTSB launches a "GO Team" that arrives on scene sometimes within the hour. When it's a general aviation crash the local FSDO dispatches an FAA Inspector who sometimes arrives in minutes. Both these organizations carry badges and operate on somewhat of an equal footing with Police, Fire and EMS.

Right now try telling a cop you're a parachute rigger and it's imperative you look at the gear before it is moved. And you're more than likely to get, "What the hell is a parachute rigger?"

So, the way it works now, there is a real need for speed. While someone is dialing 911 a rigger should be racing out to the scene. You may not be able to totally figure it out right then, but after seeing the state of the gear, and then plugging in info you get later, you usually can. Skip that first step and you're at a real disadvantage.

Now I know being a rigger doesn't automatically qualify you for the job, and some DZs won't even have a rigger around. And sometimes being just a rigger but not a very experienced jumper, or even better yet a very experienced Instructor, just isn't enough.

There is a B.A.S.E. jumping fatality that just occurred that you can read about on the other side of the fence. Confusion is reigning becasue no one who knew what they were looking at got a chance to examine the scene before is was disturbed.

It's seems to me we did a better job of this in years past. I think the problem is there are so many more DZs open that are run, staffed, and jumped at, by people who just aren't that experienced.

I've talked to past USPA officials about doing something about this, but they ignored it.

We need designated people in each sub-geographical area appointed to actively investigate every skydiving fatality. Right now these things eventually fall to the gear manufactures, the AAD manufactures, and the grapevine. And you don't have to be a total dolt to see the problem in that. And in the meantime we wait for months, years, and we sometimes never get a probable causation.

We need a qualified person, someone who knows how to correctly document a fatality, within an hour of every drop zone in the United States. Bodies don't get removed until the Coroner arrives so there's usually a golden hour there, sometimes more. The USPA needs to spend some of our money educating local authorities on the importance of someone looking at the scene, before it's molested, someone who knows what they are looking at. Then they need to organize a corps of Parachute Accident Inspectors.

We owe that to our fallen, and we owe that to ourselves. Anything else is just fooling around . . .

NickD

[hparrish 0]

I agree with a lot of what yo have to say, here. But I'm not sure its practical for the USPA to have a Regional Resource that can respond to accident scenes.

A more practical approach may be for USPA to develope a guide with how to respond to accidents and interface with emergency responders and investigators.

Armed with that kind of knowledge each DZO could reach out to their local Fire & Police Departments and build a relationship and perhaps protocols for how they can work together.

Perhaps Safety Day being and annual venue for such meetings. I've seen this at severl DZ's over the years.

[NickDG 23]

Yes, that's a start, and it does work. At Perris they have that kind of relationship with the local police and the Coroner. And they have it at several other large DZs.

But at Podunk Drop Zone X-ray they don't. When I was going around doing AFF evaluations courses in the 90s I often said to Course Director Rick Horn, "Hey Rick, is it me, or does nobody on this DZ know what they are doing?"

I never had that feeling in the 70s, or in the 80s . . .

And in a way I agree with you. An anemic USPA can't do it. The FAA would have to be behind it since it's really the Feds that regulate skydiving. I've always choked on that notion of letting USPA govern us so the FAA won't do it. Our true saving grace IS THE FAA, becasue they call skydiving a recognized aeronautical activity. That's what truly protects us from being totally run out of town.

And when you think of it. I'd rather have a rating from the FAA that said AFF Instructor, and Expert Parachutist, along with my other FAA tickets like my student's pilot license, my rigger, and mechanic rating. The USPA is just a layer of dung we truly don't need.

I can petition my government for change. And if I'm right and persistent enough I can change things. I can't petition the USPA for anything once they decide they don't see it my way.

NickD

[baronn 111]

Hey Nick,
Couldn't agree more about the layer of Dung. The USPA is and has been a selfish, self-serving organization that only exists to serve those in a position at the USPA. If it was a real business, it would have declared bankruptcy years ago and (thankfully) folded up. Time to bury this useless group and get a REAL bunch of business people involved and take the whole skydiving business to a level it should have been at years ago.

[lost_n_confuzd 0]

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The USPA needs to spend some of our money educating local authorities on the importance of someone looking at the scene, before it's molested, someone who knows what they are looking at. Then they need to organize a corps of Parachute Accident Inspectors.

I like your idea. Have the local DZs spearhead the initiative with local authorities and have USPA produce/provide official documentation, a how-to guide, call it whatever. Sort of like the AAD letters to the TSA, only this will be done prior to any accidents so an established policy can already be in place.

And of course there are some people who, in my opinion, should not be involved in any initial on-scene investigation; DZOs, anyone instructing or coaching the deceased, etc...

[lost_n_confuzd 0]

Perhaps every DZ should have an Incident Response Kit consisting of a digitial video camera, recorder for notes, notpad, etc... a few essentials to, like NickD said, respond before any authorites arrive, or if a system is in place, arrive with the authorities.

[douwanto 22]

Would telling the authority s you are an FAA licensed parachute Rigger trained to asses sport parachute equipment for function and possible failures??

Just wondering??

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[asolomon 0]

We had an incident, that could have been a fatality (the guy got really lucky in all his stupidity, survived the impact with the ground) - the safety officer on the day asked to have the scene and equipment photographed before the ambulance arrived.
I am not experienced sky diver and I normally do other type of photography, but was asked to do so.
I am not sure has it been used for anything, but the detailed shots were taken of the body, rig, reserve - placement, condition, handles, etc.

Something that could be always put in place, should there be no rigger present - surely, there is plenty of cameraman on each drop zone. Ok, it takes a bit out of you to come to the scene of incident and take photos, I know...

[lost_n_confuzd 0]

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Just wondering??

You have any credintials to back that up? A badge? Something?

That might be what you hear them say. Having a policy in place would greatly help to prevent any misuderstandings. Even better would be to have a letter from city officials or the local PD stating exactly what the DZ is required to to do.

An MOU would be idea.

[deltron80 0]

I don't think the public really cares when a skydiver dies.

[councilman24 36]

We have that USPA representative. They're called Safety and Training Advisors. We are charged with filing incident/fatality reports. I've done two fatality reports.

One guy was a traveling jumper from another country here on business and stopping buy to make a jump.

He landed in some woods with nothing out. It took several hours to find him. During that time I introduced myself to the state police officer in charge, explained the need to examine the gear in situ, if that wasn't possible what to do and not to do, and thought we had it all set for me to accompany him when the individual was found. When the word came in and he started to leave I started toward him and he essentially said No way, you stay here. It compromised the investigation. I was able later to examine police photographs of the body and the victims logbook.

BTW the FAA showed up several days later.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[davelepka 4]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but there are quite a few circumstances where you suggestions won't apply.

In the incident that spawned this thread, the pair landed off the DZ next to a home whose owner happened to be outside at the time. He called 911, and the police/EMS were first on the scene.

As such, they went to work on the harness and related gear in an attempt to get to the victims and administer aid. The end result was gear that was cut up and moved around so as to offer little or no information as to what had happened.

Additionally, many fatalities start off as severe injuries, so the condition or configuration of the equipment takes a back seat to the needs of EMS.

I think another problem with your idea is that not every goegraphical area will have an impartial person availalbe who is qualified to do this work. I jump with a very respected Master Rigger who has the experience and education to do this type of work, but if there was an incident at our DZ, he's out because of his affiliation with the DZ. Additionally, if there was an incident at another local DZ, there's a fair chance he did some or all of the rigging on the equipment involved.

Another area I see a problem is response time. The FAA accident investigators make a living working for the FAA, and understand that part of their job is to jump when they're told to jump. Take a local jumper who is asked to do this work, they may not be able to drop what they are doing that minute and get to the scene. If they're in the middle of important business at the job that feeds their family, they won't be available immediately, and I can't imagine the cops will wait around for some 'civilian' to show up before they can get to work.

I do agree that we need some sort of formal appointment that would be recognized by all involved. Again, refering to the incident at hand, the police have the hand cam video, but are not in a hurry to provide a copy to anyone involved. I appriciate that they are not just passing out copies to anyone who asks, but the local Jump Shack I/E, who gave Dan his rating, should be able to get a copy for review, and see what the rig had to do with this. Either way, if there was a jumper with some sort of offically recognized endorsement, the cops might be willing to play ball with them.

In regards to simply getting with your local authorities, and setting this type of thing up beforehand, that is absolutely a good idea, and every DZ should already have a relationship with their local police, fire, and EMS, However, in this case, the incident happned off DZ, over the county line, so even if they had a relationship with the athorities with jurisdiction over the DZ, they would still be daling with new people in this case.

When you take this type of thing into account, as well as incidents on demo jumps which could be in any locality, you can see why there needs to be some sort of offical credentails that can be used anywhere to get a qualifed person 'in the loop'.

[gabrigger 0]

Once the police determine that it is an accident, they are pretty much waiting for the coroner. When I investigated a fatality a few years ago, the Sheriff's office wanted to get their pictures and then they waited on the coroner. Once the coroner arrived, I explained who I was and he said "You're gonna have to tell me what I'm looking at because I don't have clue about this stuff". After he was done with his pictures, etc. he had me take the gear off the deceased and go back to the DZ where I, and another rigger, inspected the gear with him (after spending 3-4 hours in a cornfield). He took it for evidence and sent it to the FAA a few days after. You just have to watch the attitudes of who responds and see how much help they want.

Greg Bailey D-19203
S/L I/E, IAD I/E, AFF I/E, TDM I/E, Coach E
Master Rigger
S&TA Skydive Warren County

[mutumbo 0]

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We had an incident, that could have been a fatality (the guy got really lucky in all his stupidity, survived the impact with the ground) - the safety officer on the day asked to have the scene and equipment photographed before the ambulance arrived.
I am not experienced sky diver and I normally do other type of photography, but was asked to do so.
I am not sure has it been used for anything, but the detailed shots were taken of the body, rig, reserve - placement, condition, handles, etc.

Something that could be always put in place, should there be no rigger present - surely, there is plenty of cameraman on each drop zone. Ok, it takes a bit out of you to come to the scene of incident and take photos, I know...

See as i was reading all this, this scenario popped in my head. what if you have someone who crashes BADLY but isnt killed, say is unconsious/ unresponsive. Obviously someone will call 911 ASAP (at least id hope to god they do) and the fire department and EMS will be en route. you will only have a small window of time to work before you are pushed aside and out of the way by the responders. I agree that preserving the scene will provide a wealth of information to an experienced person, but I can promise you that the first thing a responder will do is to take cervical spine precautions, log roll the victim on his back, check the ABC's and start cutting off clothes, the rig, and whatever is covering the body, to expose
everything as fast and efficiently as possible to see what they are really working with. Hence destroying whatever evidence would have helped figure out what happened. (Im basing all this on the scneario that the victim never wakes up and is able to tell you what exactly happens)

Now im not saying that you shouldnt take as many possilbe pictures as you can until EMS personnel get there but when they do, you have to let them do their jobs, and take care of the victim.

Im not sure if this was your point but I wanted to clarify just for my own sake.

Thanatos340(on landing rounds)--
Landing procedure: Hand all the way up, Feet and Knees Together and PLF soon as you get bitch slapped by a planet.

[mpohl 1]

+1

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>>Excuse my ignorance, but why is some police officer doing an investigation on a skydiving accident?
This is actually a really big problem in both skydiving and B.A.S.E. jumping and it's getting worse . . .

I've had some experience being first on the scene of jumping fatalities as a rigger/instructor and also after the fact and looking at the gear after it's been cut, bagged, and handled by wuffos. I've also been to more than few plane crashes as an A&P technician and saw how that works.

We jumpers operate in a gray area with no difference shown to the importance of figuring out what happened.

The first problem is with a plane crash the body(ies) can usually be removed without molesting the evidence of what went wrong. That's not true with a deceased jumper. Once EMS or police touch a fatality the evidence is forever contaminated.

When there is a major crash of an airliner the NTSB launches a "GO Team" that arrives on scene sometimes within the hour. When it's a general aviation crash the local FSDO dispatches an FAA Inspector who sometimes arrives in minutes. Both these organizations carry badges and operate on somewhat of an equal footing with Police, Fire and EMS.

Right now try telling a cop you're a parachute rigger and it's imperative you look at the gear before it is moved. And you're more than likely to get, "What the hell is a parachute rigger?"

So, the way it works now, there is a real need for speed. While someone is dialing 911 a rigger should be racing out to the scene. You may not be able to totally figure it out right then, but after seeing the state of the gear, and then plugging in info you get later, you usually can. Skip that first step and you're at a real disadvantage.

Now I know being a rigger doesn't automatically qualify you for the job, and some DZs won't even have a rigger around. And sometimes being just a rigger but not a very experienced jumper, or even better yet a very experienced Instructor, just isn't enough.

There is a B.A.S.E. jumping fatality that just occurred that you can read about on the other side of the fence. Confusion is reigning becasue no one who knew what they were looking at got a chance to examine the scene before is was disturbed.

It's seems to me we did a better job of this in years past. I think the problem is there are so many more DZs open that are run, staffed, and jumped at, by people who just aren't that experienced.

I've talked to past USPA officials about doing something about this, but they ignored it.

We need designated people in each sub-geographical area appointed to actively investigate every skydiving fatality. Right now these things eventually fall to the gear manufactures, the AAD manufactures, and the grapevine. And you don't have to be a total dolt to see the problem in that. And in the meantime we wait for months, years, and we sometimes never get a probable causation.

We need a qualified person, someone who knows how to correctly document a fatality, within an hour of every drop zone in the United States. Bodies don't get removed until the Coroner arrives so there's usually a golden hour there, sometimes more. The USPA needs to spend some of our money educating local authorities on the importance of someone looking at the scene, before it's molested, someone who knows what they are looking at. Then they need to organize a corps of Parachute Accident Inspectors.

We owe that to our fallen, and we owe that to ourselves. Anything else is just fooling around . . .

NickD

[peek 20]

You don't seem to be Becky Brocato, although you are using her D license number in your profile....

(Kind of a strange thread in which to place a tirade against USPA too.)

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If it [USPA] was a real business, it would have declared bankruptcy years ago and (thankfully) folded up. Time to bury this useless group and get a REAL bunch of business people involved and take the whole skydiving business to a level it should have been at years ago.

USPA is not supposed to be a trade organization, (although the GM program gets it squarely in the middle of certain legal issues doesn't it?) and it is definitely NOT a "business". (You might want to check the Governance Manual, available on the USPA web site to remind yourself of its purpose.)

USPA does not exist to help professional skydivers make a living. You are going to have to figure out how to do that yourselves. Maybe someone should start a trade organization.

I'm sometimes not happy with USPA (in general) either, but at least I understand what its strengths and weaknesses are. Open your mind and ask around.

[Fast 0]

I agree and also really wish that we had something in place for dealing with these situations. In a recent fatality that I was involved with investigating, we were the 3rd or 4th group of people who were allowed to see the gear after it had been handled and messed with by the previous parties who have no experience with parachute equipment. We were also denied the right to see the on scene photos of the accident by the primary police department heading up the investigation in order to "protect us" from the "gruesome" scene.

In the end, we were told that we won't ever be allowed to have any part of any investigation. We won't ever get allowed on the scene of a "murder"(and that's the exact word used) and we are "crazy." So the really sad part about it is that, if someone goes in by us, we're fucked when it comes to finding out what happened. Just a real shame to lose a person and then not be able to learn anything from it to help someone down the road.

Honestly it would be great if there was some kind of FAA guidlines that were pushed down to local authorities that detailed what needs to be done in the case of a parachuting accident. Something so far as a list of things to check for, who to contact and some guidance on "if you don't understand this ask xyz for help"

The preliminary evidence gathering from these types of accidents isn't overly complicated. I could name off a reasonable list of things that need to be looked for right away to prevent loss of evidence. In the end, the sad part of this is that the police are mostly worried about making sure someone wasn't murdered and they are also not in any position to know that. Most of the evidence that could prove something like that is in fact destroyed because they don't know what they are doing with us and our gear.

Just really sucks.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[chuckakers 370]

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I agree with a lot of what yo have to say, here. But I'm not sure its practical for the USPA to have a Regional Resource that can respond to accident scenes.

A more practical approach may be for USPA to develope a guide with how to respond to accidents and interface with emergency responders and investigators.

Armed with that kind of knowledge each DZO could reach out to their local Fire & Police Departments and build a relationship and perhaps protocols for how they can work together.

Perhaps Safety Day being and annual venue for such meetings. I've seen this at severl DZ's over the years.

That would be fine, but would only work if implemented at the local level. And if it is handled at the local level, you don't need USPA to get it done.

I owned a DZ for a few years, and we set up our own protocol with local emergency responders. By and large, the cops and EMS folks want to do the right thing. They just don't often know what that is.

We met with all the appropriate people, equipment in hand, to walk them through all kinds of scenarios and what to do in each one. We discussed what was and was not important from an aviation accident investigation perspective. By the time we were done, they had a good basic understanding of what to look for, what not to touch, and even when it was and WASN"T ok to damage equipment for the sake of the patient.

I even remember once hearing an EMS tech tell a newbie "don't cut that legstrap" when working with a minor leg break. He saved the jumper a bit of money that day.

We also shared the protocol with the local DPS (troopers), city and county police agencies, etc. Worked like a charm.

Fortunately we never needed "an investigation".

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[mutumbo 0]

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I owned a DZ for a few years, and we set up our own protocol with local emergency responders. By and large, the cops and EMS folks want to do the right thing. They just don't often know what that is.

We met with all the appropriate people, equipment in hand, to walk them through all kinds of scenarios and what to do in each one. We discussed what was and was not important from an aviation accident investigation perspective. By the time we were done, they had a good basic understanding of what to look for, what not to touch, and even when it was and WASN"T ok to damage equipment for the sake of the patient.

THIS is what needs to be done country wide, if you guys want us EMS people to save your rigs. Most of us in the field dont know enough, or any other way than the way we were originally taught, which for me(and everyone I know) was, if its in the way cut it off. They arent going to come to you, you MUST take the initiative and go to them and say "look, we dont want to get in the way and tell you how to do your job, but if you do this. . . .insert technique here. . . . " i bet youd get a pretty positive response from ALOT of departments.

Thanatos340(on landing rounds)--
Landing procedure: Hand all the way up, Feet and Knees Together and PLF soon as you get bitch slapped by a planet.

[BrianM 1]

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what if you have someone who crashes BADLY but isnt killed, say is unconsious/ unresponsive. Obviously someone will call 911 ASAP (at least id hope to god they do) and the fire department and EMS will be en route. you will only have a small window of time to work before you are pushed aside and out of the way by the responders.

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Now im not saying that you shouldnt take as many possilbe pictures as you can until EMS personnel get there but when they do, you have to let them do their jobs, and take care of the victim.

If someone is badly hurt but alive, I would much rather see the jumpers who are first on scene start first aid than start taking pictures and examining gear. Accident investigation should be secondary to saving a life! That might even mean that the jumpers destroy evidence to help the injured person. Yes, it's unfortunate to loose the evidence, but those are my priorities.

Of course, if you have enough people that one person can take photos/video while others are doing first aid, then great! Go for it!

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THIS is what needs to be done country wide, if you guys want us EMS people to save your rigs.

I was first on scene to a relatively minor injury several years ago. Managed to stop the firefighters from cutting the canopy lines with bolt cutters (canopy was draped on the side of a tree, lines were in the way of the EMS). "Hold on! Just pull this handle!"

... and the way to really know if the injured jumper is ok is if they say "I'm ok, save my gear!" I've seen that happen, too!

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[mutumbo 0]

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Of course, if you have enough people that one person can take photos/video while others are doing first aid, then great! Go for it!

That is what I meant, I just worded it piss-poorly, sorry. Of course first aid takes priority over all else.

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I was first on scene to a relatively minor injury several years ago. Managed to stop the firefighters from cutting the canopy lines with bolt cutters (canopy was draped on the side of a tree, lines were in the way of the EMS). "Hold on! Just pull this handle!"

Exactly my point, they went to the bolt cutters, because they didnt know any other way.

Thanatos340(on landing rounds)--
Landing procedure: Hand all the way up, Feet and Knees Together and PLF soon as you get bitch slapped by a planet.

[juggalo 1]

"We need designated people in each sub-geographical area appointed to actively investigate every skydiving fatality."


The S&TA is the person that should be first on the scene.
I was one for years and had to report several fatalities over the years. The FAA in our area would want to talk to the S&TA before the police or anyone else.
Also according to the FAA here the S&TA IS the person in charge on the scene until they arrive.

This makes it important for the S&TA to be one of the most experienced jumpers at the DZ. I think being a rigger should be a requirement to be one.

From my experiences unless an A/C is involved the FAA usually leaves the investigation up to the S&TA, they just collect info from them.

I had a problem at a DZ a few years back with the police removing the deceased and gear before I got there. It was an incident at another DZ in my region and the owner called me because their S&TA was out of the country at the time.

The FAA showed up after me and I was the first person they wanted to talk with. This did not go well with the chief of police or the coroner. All they were interested in was charging someone with a homicide.

But like you said the non skydiver does not know what they are looking at.
USPA could provide more info on what to do at an accident scene besides the info collected on the incident report.

Just my opinions
brew

waving off is to tell people to get out of my landing area