Counter-steer (motorbikes)

[nigel99 144]

I was wondering whether anybody here has practiced counter-steer as a conscious method of turning a bike? I realise that it is used unconsciously all the time, but at an advanced riding course a few weeks ago my instructor mentioned it briefly and I misunderstood what we was saying so lost the opportunity to learn from him?

Recent reading implies that like flat turns in skydiving it is a good skill to master and find the limits for an emergency, however I don't fancy dropping 200 kilos of bike and busting something exploring the turning performance? I also am terrified of actually turning the handlebars in the opposite direction that I want to go to find out!

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[shropshire 0]

Yes. As you say, it's how we steer anyway, but doing it consciously is a dramatic demo, isn't it?

As I understand it, it's gyroscopic precession in action.... a force on the hub of a gyro will be translated into motion 90degress in the direction of rotation (or something like that).



Have a go.... you dont need to do it at high speed or drop the bike!!

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Deuce 1]

That.

Once you're going any kind of speed you have to counter steer to get the bike to turn.

If you are at speed and upright and attempt to turn right by turning the bars to the right the bike will likely crash down on its left side and eject you over the "high-side".

To safely turn without countersteering you have to be going pretty slow.

[VincentVL. 0]

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I also am terrified of actually turning the handlebars in the opposite direction that I want to go to find out!

Are you terrified of crashing into a blind cardriver? Eventually you will but countersteering might help avoid it.

Try this for starters: get on you bicycle, just ride it at a reasonable speed (say 7-10 mph) in a straight line in an open area and gently push the left handlebar forward by stretching your arm. You'll see that the bike "falls" to the left (like it does everytime you go into a bend) even though you are "turning" to the right.

Why do you need this? Like I said: to dodge cars not seeing you or to get around a car that stops right in front of you. You don't have a lot of time to react so you'll want to just push the handle of the direction you want to go in order to avoid collision.

If all that doesn't make sense just buy a book called "A twist of the wrist"

You really want to be able to control this. I REALLy don't understand why some instructors (even as a basic skill) don't thoroughly teach this.

[nigel99 144]

there is something about doing it consciously to "force" a quicker turn that really freaks me out. I guess I will try it in a car park a bit later at night so that I don't have to worry about obsticles.

Saw a youtube video where the guy was demoing the turns and actually seemed to be putting a fair amount of "turn" into his inputs.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[shropshire 0]

Start gently... and build up; you'll get the idea once you've had a go.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[nigel99 144]

its precisely because of emergency avoidance that I want to master this. One of the biggest killers on bikes here is people scrubbing corners and going into oncomming traffic/off the verge - hence the instructor bringing it up.

I have been doing it naturally for years (but without "knowing" it is the honing of the skill and pushing the limits that is my concern.

I will have a look at the book and I really like the idea of experimenting on a bicycle to get a feel for the responce on something that isn't 3 times my weight etc.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Darius11 12]

Just under stand that you don’t hold the counter steer. You do it quickly to get the bike leaning towards the direction you want to go then ease of. At least that’s the way I did it and did it all the time not just to avoid crashing. It is a really quick way to get the bike to lean down.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[BrokenR1 0]

I think it's actually fun to do. Going down the highway you can play with it and never leave your lane. All you have to do is move a couple feet back and forth, you don't have to turn so hard your dragging knee. If you've ridden above running speed you've done it so it's nothing new, now you're just paying attention and learning how it works. Maybe don't focus and doing it but go back and forth and pay attention on what you're doing to make it happen.

Turning right makes the bike fall to the left, then you straighten out and it keeps going, as you near where you want to be you turn to the left and the bike is pulled back under you untill you're going straight, then you straighten out and you're good to go.

Don't know how much sense this makes to others. I miss my bike (Stolen '00 R1)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[doug925 0]

Nigel,

I purposely do it all the time while just riding.
It does two things for me;
1. warms up my tires (tyres for you Uk'ers)
2. gives me something to do while riding

Read Keith Code's "A Twist of the Wrist"
it does a great job of explaining the how's and the why's of it.

Start small with your inputs, and build up to "flicking"
You can lay that bike into a turn really quickly.

Good luck,

Doug

I have never developed indigestion from eating my words.
Winston Churchill

[billvon 2,400]

One thing that often gets lost in bicycle and motorcycle riding is that the front wheel does NOT steer the bike. It is used to keep the bike from falling over. To turn, you lean. The bike tries to fall over on one side. You prevent this by turning the front wheel in the direction the bike is falling. Centrifugal force then keeps you from toppling over.

Countersteering is using the front wheel to do that leaning for you. Twitch the front wheel left without leaning; the bike will begin to topple to the right. Wait until the bike has begun to heel over, then turn the front wheel to the right into the turn to keep it from going over. And voila - turn the handlebars left, go right.

>however I don't fancy dropping 200 kilos of bike . . .

Get a 10-speed and try it. They work the same general way.

[Squeak 17]

get yourself a dirt bike
Speedway and dirt track riders counter steer on opposite lock all the time.
Many of the worlds best road racers have come from a dirt bike background.
If you wanna really learn counter steering get on the dirt

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Hooknswoop 19]

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

Derek

[Mayberry 0]

It works, trust me. Watch this, the guy kinda rambles on a bit too much but a pretty good demonstration. You don't have to be going all that fast or exert a lot of effort to do it as the video shows. Hope this helps!

Don

Here's to friends!

[Zee 0]

Just keep in mind that it's a very small movement. Just apply a small amount of pressure to the clip on and inertia will do the rest.

Keep in mind that there are a multitude of other things involved in a high speed turn in addition to counter steering. You also have to think about your line, proper braking technique, throttle control, and body position.

If you have the opportunity to try a track day - go for it. Just practice one component at a time until you get comfortable with it - then add another, and another...

Action©Sports

[nigel99 144]

I had a play last night consciously doing it more and more aggressively.

It raises an interesting aspect of safety training. I have been riding for years and while not knowing this I have "safely" gone around corners/avoided cars etc, it has clearly restricted my ability to "turn" hard. As it is counter intuitive initially it would make sense for the principle to be discussed - bearing in mind that as mentioned in an earlier post of mine, most road deaths on big bikes are people screwing up on corners.
By actively using the bars to "flick" the bike over quicker and more precisely I was able to increase my average cornering speed considerably. It really makes me think of BillVon and his banging on about flat turns - how many things do we do without realising/understanding and it bites us later?

Well thanks for the input everyones comments are much appreciated

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Tonto 1]

Start with this.

Whenever you ride a bike with only one hand on the handlebars, you are coutersteering.

The speed it works best at is kinda lane splitting traffic speed, as it allows the bike to simply drop to the degree of bank you require, and then steers "normally" from there.

It's best practiced Right, then left here, but we ride on the other side of the road. Point is, you want to use it to miss something FAST but not end up on the other side of the road, and so require a return to line.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[warpedskydiver 0]

>however I don't fancy dropping 200 kilos of bike . . .

Quote

What, do you want to live forever?

[VincentVL. 0]

Yes. You have to be able to "undo" the movement. Because if you dodge a car and go left, you might run into oncoming traffic. So while you're out practicing, make sure you can do a double countersteer to get back in your own lane.

This has actually saved my life once when I wanted to overtake and there was a car I had missed. Man that was close.