First Snohomish Caravan lawsuit filed

[karenmeal 0]

I didn't think that you are patronizing me- you're just apparently much more knowledgeable about these sorts of things than I am. But I'm trying to learn.

I just want to be clear that I am not a lawsuit happy sort of person and I think that quite often a lawsuit is the least likely solution for a problem. However, in cases where negligence exists, it could be the catalyst that spurs changes and prevents future incidents.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[airtwardo 6]

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From the AD:

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Continued flight after encountering moderate or greater icing conditions is prohibited. One or
more of the following defines moderate icing conditions for this airplane:
Airspeed in level flight at constant power decreases by 20 KIAS.
Engine torque required to maintain airspeed increases by 400 ft. lbs.
120 KIAS cannot be maintained in level flight.
Ice accretion of 1/4 inch observed on the wing strut.”

So from this, if the pilot was flying in less than conditions- would that have been allowed?

And THAT'S the 10 dollar question...


'moderate icing' is a relative term, who crawls out mid flight to measure the ice on the wing strut.

There are a multitude of reasons the airspeed could decrease by 20 kts....on and on.

If the pilot feels the aircraft is getting funky they need to get out of there fast.

If the pilot isn't familiar with icing funky and or they are fatigued or their attention is not focused 100%...things can and will go bad fast...it's the whole chain of disaster thing.

The bottom line question is...in regard to this crash, what are the 'simplest' parameters, that if changed would have resulted in a non incident...from the currently available information, it's flight path and altitude.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[JeepDiver 0]

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The bottom line question is...in regard to this crash, what are the 'simplest' parameters, that if changed would have resulted in a non incident...from the currently available information, it's flight path and altitude.

Also time of flight. Flying home the following morning vs the latter part of the day.

[jonstark 8]

Cessna has the capability to add an anti or de-icing system to this airframe. The problem is that doing so can reduce the useful load to a point at which the a/c is useless. Their answer to flight into known icing is to prohibit it into more than "light" icing. Anything more than that and you're a test pilot of an a/c that is known to perform poorly in icing conditions.

What do you suggest Cessna do? Ballistic Recovery System? Bigger placards? More stringent training?

I too have seen too many of these suits and bear the increasing cost of operations due to the high price of insurance. Nobody wins and the a/c are not made any safer in the end. Flying is fraught with dangers both subjective and objective. Hard to live with that when a loved one is killed.

[airdvr 197]

The underlying concern most have with this type of suit is how it has stymied the aircraft manufacturers as a whole. Manufacturers have mostly stopped creating newer designs due to their fear of lawsuits. Take a look here The basic design of a single engine cessna hasn't changed in almost 60 years. Why? Lawsuits. And don't even get me started about why aircraft are so damned expensive.

There's a ton of new designs that will never see the light of day commercially because of this. I'm sure someone on here knows much more about this aspect than I.

I feel bad for the parents. I don't really think their intent matches what the attorney will end up doing and saying to make a buck.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[diverdriver 5]

After this crash I took the Cessna Caravan Icing Training. I don't even fly Caravans but I thought it was important enough as I run a jump pilot website. It cost 50 bucks. Small price to pay for GREAT training. It's done online at your convenience from any internet connection.

We don't know that icing brought this Caravan down. It could also have been a disorientation accident. I still don't know the hours of the pilot total/in type/in instrument conditions/recency of instrument flying and icing training. Lots of questions. This could be an accident akin to the JFK Jr accident. Perfectly working aircraft that the pilot loses control of. We just don't know yet. We don't know if the plane was equiped for flight into known icing or whether the installed equipement was even working. We don't know what effect fatigue played into this.

We know the flight was not on an instrument flight plan and did encounter instrument flying conditions. Even if the pilot is rated (speaking in generals here not this specific accident pilot) there can be a loss of control as the pilot encountered something unexpected which adds a whole knew dinamic to the situation.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[chuckakers 370]

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I'm not at all surprised.

If this crash was found to be due to something that Cessna could have fixed or addressed in years prior, then I feel that they should be held (at least) somewhat accountable.

You clearly don't get it. If I was the DZO where you jump, you would be looking for a new place to skydive.

[chuckakers 370]

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Not a joke at all.

I was good friends with the pilot of the plane, but I fully realize that in all likelihood it was most likely his fault and he is probably the only one to blame. People aren't perfect, I know that and accept that.

However, as some news reports suggest, if there was a problem with the plane icing in conditions where flying was technically ok, then that it is a problem that should be addressed. I'm not saying I think Cessna should be bankrupt or anything like that. What I think is that if there is a problem with Caravans or they shouldn't fly in certain conditions (which may currently be technically allowable conditions) then the company should fix that.

Maybe you should consider another sport. Not a joke at all.

[TrophyHusband 0]

is the investigation over yet? and if so, has the final report been released?

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[chaoskitty 0]

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I'm not at all surprised.

If this crash was found to be due to something that Cessna could have fixed or addressed in years prior, then I feel that they should be held (at least) somewhat accountable.

You clearly don't get it. If I was the DZO where you jump, you would be looking for a new place to skydive.

Good thing you're not a DZO then. There are "if's" in both of your statements, and personally I agree with hers. Improvements are not made and nothing changes when nobody is held accountable. We can talk about it all we want, but we're not the people who decide who is accountable. We're just the people who lost ten friends, and still jump the same aircraft they died in every weekend.

[NWFlyer 2]

I disagree with Karen's idea that a lawsuit is the way to develop accountability; but I also think you're being more than a little harsh. This is an interesting case for us as skydivers because it wasn't a skydiving accident. We accept the risks of general aviation when it comes to skydiving operations, and we accept the risk of the actual skydiving part of the skydiving operation. But this was a skydiving plane used in a GA situation and it forces us all to think about the situation again.

I doubt very seriously that most (if any) of the 10 people on that plane thought about that plane ride as being anything different from a typical skydiving flight, except that it was 2+ hours longer. This accident is reminding us all to do that - and reminding us that ferry flights are different animals and should be assessed as such.

Frankly, I'm not surprised that someone's filed suit. I'm disappointed that they have, and I'd bet that Bryan would be livid that his family was doing it.

But if you paid Karen's questions some respect, I think you'd realize that she's asking questions and trying to learn more about the plane and the known issues with it. This is not a "sue 'em all" whuffo response - this is a genuine question coming from a grieving skydiver who's spent her entire adult life in the sport and has seen more in those 6 years than most people her age. Does that compare to your 22 years? Of course not, but it's not worthy of that level of disdain.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[CSpenceFLY 1]

A lawsuit like this is comlpete bull shit. The aircraft was flying, in one piece and the engine was running at the time of the crash. Cessna has no more control over a pilot loosing control of an airplane ,either from ice or other causes, then Ford has control of someone speeding or running a red light and killing everyone in the car.

The ADs that Cessna issued covers any icing issue. The Caravan is no more dangerous then any other aircraft in icing conditions.

Bottom line, knowing what I know about aircraft and weather, I would not have been on that aircraft that night. If anyone should be sued it is the pilots estate but that aint where the money is and that my friends is the way our system works.

[NWFlyer 2]

I'm inclined to agree with you, Spence - and if you read my post, I wasn't defending the lawsuit. I was defending Karen's right to ask sincere questions without being told she's not allowed to be a skydiver.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[airtwardo 6]

still jump the same aircraft they died in every weekend.

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I understand the emotional strain on this but we also need to be objective here.

The aircraft wasn't being USED as a jump platform at the time of the crash, though it had flown as one all weekend without incedent...I wouldn't think twice about jumping from one, although flying cross country at night, after a long day, I might.

If the AC were inherently unsafe as a product line, you would be seeing aluminum showers weekly, that just isn't the case.

Was there possibly something wrong with this particular aircraft?

That's what the investigation is for, but since it didn't seem to have a history of going into unplanned spins and dives...flew there and while there without a problem, I would objectively have to question the AC manufacturer as being liable.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[CSpenceFLY 1]

I wasn't really answering your post. Just a general post.

[Amazon 7]

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Frankly, I'm not surprised that someone's filed suit. I'm disappointed that they have, and I'd bet that Bryan would be livid that his family was doing it.

I know and I am not surprised either.... and this truely saddens me to see this... all who knew them were hurt by this accident. This type of thing can not bring them back...none of us can bring any of them back no matter what we can do.

Money is not a substitue for your family members... and this type of thing only enriches those bottom feeding ambulance chasers who are undeserving.

[airtwardo 6]

Bottom line, knowing what I know about aircraft and weather, I would not have been on that aircraft that night.

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I wish I had the same conviction Chris, I know about those things and have gotten on...that damn get home-itis.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[turtlespeed 212]

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A lawsuit like this is comlpete bull shit. The aircraft was flying, in one piece and the engine was running at the time of the crash. Cessna has no more control over a pilot loosing control of an airplane ,either from ice or other causes, then Ford has control of someone speeding or running a red light and killing everyone in the car.

The ADs that Cessna issued covers any icing issue. The Caravan is no more dangerous then any other aircraft in icing conditions.

Bottom line, knowing what I know about aircraft and weather, I would not have been on that aircraft that night. If anyone should be sued it is the pilots estate but that aint where the money is and that my friends is the way our system works.

AH - but Cessna has some money and the lawyer wants some of it.
Unfortunately the Parents might also. Unfortunately the parents let themselves be talked into being able to shun some of the responsibility onto others that don't deserve it.

Unfortunately death makes you make irrational decisions.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[grannyinthesky 0]

My first tandem jump was earlier that day on the same plane. It was a very sobering moment, but I did distinguish between using the plane to jump from and using it as transportation. I'm pretty leery of small planes and mountains after living in Idaho for some time and would have to think twice or more before doing that.

"safety first... and What the hell.....
safety second, Too!!! " ~~jmy

POPS #10490

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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Bottom line, knowing what I know about aircraft and weather, I would not have been on that aircraft that night.

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I wish I had the same conviction Chris, I know about those things and have gotten on...that damn get home-itis.

Years ago I almost killed myself in a weather related accident. A few years later I got in the back of an airplane with someone I trusted and they almost killed me. I almost learned the hard way. That was the basis of my post in the original incident thread.

If your going to travel in small aircraft trusting the pilot is probably not enough and you better know and understand what get-home-itis is.

This accident has nothing to do with Cessna and I hope the pilot comes back to haunt his parents. I would mine.

[Amazon 7]

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I wish I had the same conviction Chris, I know about those things and have gotten on...that damn get home-itis.

Been there and done that.. the last trip I went on from one of Kapowsins planes the weather went to crap between Nampa ID and Kapowsin...we were IFR from the time we hit the east slope of the Cascades... and many of us had to be back to work in the morning...but knowing there is a 14000 Ft mountain out there in the clouds you are flying thru is very very sobering.......Part of living up here in the NW surrounded by mountains... and weather coming off the Not So Pacific Ocean is in making choices....we usually get away with those choices.. but this time.. it did not work out.
Knowing what I know of the weather...and flight path.. the circumstances.. I would probably have gotten on the plane as well.

[karenmeal 0]

You obviously didn't read my other posts.

I'm not suprised by the fact that there is a lawsuit because lawsuits crop up for every little thing now a days. This was a big thing that happened so I fully expected to see a lawsuit. It's just the way of our culture whether we like it or not.

Whether or not a lawsuit is justified in my mind: if there is found to be a plane problem that Cessna knew about and didn't address, then they should change things. Paying money out is not a way to change things and it won't actually bring the family any comfort. But.. to large corporations who are (legally required to be) driven by one thing: the bottom line, then the only way to instigate change at the corporate level is through monetary accountability.

I know that the most likely cause of the crash (because it's the most likely cause of most general aviation crashes) is simply an error in pilot judgement. In that case, sueing will do absolutely no good as it's too late to teach Phil a lesson and it would have nothing to do with the make or model of the plane. In that scenario the most hopeful outcome is that pilots will learn something from this accident or at the very least, what they already know will be emphasized.

I want at least something positive to come out of this crash. That's all I've ever wanted when I've lost friends to this sport. (Current tally of friends lost: 16 - don't tell me I don't know about the realities of this sport and I'm only 24.)

As far as me not belonging in the sport, I completely belong in this sport. If you knew me at all you would never think that I should not jump at a dropzone for any reason. I am a very conscientious skydiver and I try to bring positive change to every dropzone that I jump at.

I have explicitly told my family that if I die in the sport they are not to sue, I have a great relationship with my family and I feel extremely confident that my wishes would be carried out in the case of my death in the sport.

My only point in my posts was to say I could see a certain scenario (albeit a very unlikely one) in which a lawsuit could instigate positive change. But to be realistic, that is not the case here and the lawsuit is very likely uncalled for.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[JeepDiver 0]

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Bottom line, knowing what I know about aircraft and weather, I would not have been on that aircraft that night.

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I wish I had the same conviction Chris, I know about those things and have gotten on...that damn get home-itis.

Years ago I almost killed myself in a weather related accident. A few years later I got in the back of an airplane with someone I trusted and they almost killed me. I almost learned the hard way. That was the basis of my post in the original incident thread.

If your going to travel in small aircraft trusting the pilot is probably not enough and you better know and understand what get-home-itis is..

I was talking to a young couple a few weeks back. BF had just got his private pilots license. They flew into a DZ in a rental 172. Had never flown the route. Sunday dragged into Sunday evening, they were flying back over the mountains, at night as it turned out, after a long skydiving weekend. At least weather conditions were clear & warm.

I said it wasn't the smartest thing to do.... just to make it home. Monday morning would have been better but all the reasons applied why that was problematic. Sunday morning would have been ideal but they let the day get away from them.

Tough call for them but it does increase the risk factor. Get-home-itis is a decision people sometimes feel they are forced to make, and not always a wise choice.

[Andy9o8 0]

Some random observations:

I drafted a provision into my will asking my family, and instructing the executor of my estate, not to sue in the event I'm killed skydiving. I also have separate written funeral instructions, as well as a health care power of attorney (a/k/a "living will"), and I drafted that into those, too. My wife has seen it, and my teenage kids are aware of it, and I've asked them all to honor it. My parents hate that I skydive, so they wouldn't honor it even if I wanted them to. In reality, it's no guarantee that suit can't/won't be filed, but it does reduce the chance of it somewhat.

If my will is probated, then it becomes a public record, and that instruction would hopefully be deemed binding on my executor. Also, being a public record (once it's probated), it could conceivably be admitted into evidence by the defense at trial, if they have the foresight to think of it and get a copy of it. Of course, my family could always choose not to probate my will (which, for tax and other reasons, actually is fairly commonly done in the event of the "first spouse to die", since for most "average" married couples, most property is "marital", which only passes after the second spouse dies.)

I think people who want this sort of thing should not just "tell their families", but put it in writing, preferably in their wills. It might influence some distraught surviving families. However, it can only command the executor of your estate to not file suit on behalf of your estate (i.e., on behalf of the post-mortem "you"). It cannot stop a next of kin filing a wrongful death lawsuit in his/her own right. As for mandating that your estate's money be used to pay defense costs, not a bad idea, in principle. But if you don't have a substantial estate in the first place (how many skydivers in their 20's do?), it's fairly toothless. And it can probably be defeated anyway, simply by distributing the assets of your estate before suit is filed.

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There's a lot of talk in this thread presuming to fix blame on some, and exonerate others. It's way premature for that, my friends. I know you're all saying it in good faith. But we don't know all the raw facts and evidence yet, and we're not the experts qualified to analyze those data. The investigation is still not complete; and even once it is, forensic accident reconstruction is pretty complex, and there are many instances when reasonable experts can, and do, disagree not just on key conclusions from the facts, but on the facts themselves. What appears to be the case at first blush sometimes turns out not to be the case after extensive evidence-gathering and analysis. Until then, please keep an open mind.

Also, nobody is hiding the pleadings from the public. They're a public record, and anybody is entitled to obtain a copy of them. It's really quite easy to do, in fact. ExAFO is right; there are a lot of snap judgments being made here that people really aren't qualified to make.

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I didn't know Brian, nor did several people in this thread. I, too, would like to think he wouldn't approve of this lawsuit, but those of us who didn't know him are certainly not qualified to presume to know that. Those of you who were his friends may feel you know, but his next of kin may feel that they knew him better than his friends. Please don't think harshly of his parents. Those of us who are parents can maybe begin to understand their state of mind. But I know from my own life's experience that those of you who are not cannot begin to.

I'll follow my general rule, which I promised myself many years ago, not to engage and rebut condemnations of lawyers or the legal sysytem, or debate whether product liability lawsuits do or do not result safer products, or whether the safety benefit is a net "plus" or "minus" to society when balanced against the negatives. So I won't get into it here. But I will say that it's easy to presume, because deep down you hope it to be the case, that the parents have minimal initiative or decision-making in this and are just being led on a leash by lawyers. But unless actually know that, then you really have no way of knowing that.

Finally, I really don't like the way Karen was bullied and abused by Chuck because she dared to not be a cheerleader for the majority opinion in the group. This is a public forum, Chuck, where everyone is free to express competing ideas. Nobody elected you as the official censor for the skydiving community.

[airtwardo 6]

I agree with most everything you say, other that the part about 'snap judgements'...I prefer to call then opinions, and as such we're all surely qualified to have them.

As an Attorney Andy...would there be any advantage to someone like you constructing a basic document that we as a group...especially the younger jumpers without a will... could download, sign with a witness and file in our personal papers, that would hold water in court?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~