no reserve pull after cutaway ?

[Fireflyer 0]

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I believe that some people become complacent when they feel immune to the risks - ie: "nobody around her has had a horseshoe mal so why should I think about what to do?" (I did on #141, and that opened a few eyes around the DZ because it had not 'ever' happened. Now people consider this mal and we've had one other since).

how did you recover from this? it seems to scare me the most of all the potential mals.

[dterrick 0]

Hi Chris!

Inded it is a scary mal. Mine was a "mild" one that some would call only an "entanglement".

On a hop n pop from 3,000 I had an unstable exit (lesson #1 - it can happen anytime, anywhere, to anyone). I knew I'd have to pull as soon as I finished my unintentional frontloop and I did - except that I was still rotating headdown as I pulled. The pilot chute wrapped around my left ankle and pulled me further headdown. Yikes.

To clear THIS particular mal you "rotate the offending limb while pointing to the sky" since the pilot chute really DOES want to leave your body (Think about the drag factor for a minute - if you rotated the wrong way (winding it up more) you'd be reeling in your pilot chue like a big fish).

Of course, since me leg(s) were already pointing skyward as I continued to accelerate I "just" had to shake the leg and off it came ... and then came the BANG of an upset canopy warning me not to do shit like that again.

***

I've done the pilot chute in tow and the horseshoe mal and they're both nasty, high speed problems requiring you to take IMMEDIATE action. There is a good video (called "Cutaway" I think) out there about mals and what to and I'd suggest you ask your DZO if there is a copy you can watch with a senior (is your profile up to date?) instructor. Oh ya, and read the dropzone.com forums often. Even when I'm not in the air I get to keep my mental skills sharp by reading and replying. Good question Chris.

Dave

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[Fireflyer 0]

wow, that is incredible... i am just happy i got out of a pain in the ass line twist. i think our dz is awesome on safety, and i feel comfortable in being able to handle an emergency, albeit i am untested. thanks for sharing this. it is very helpful. blues!
C

[dterrick 0]

Thanks Chris! I'm glad it was helpful...

For the benefit of the list at large, I have also been in a 'total' crash on thr road in a Triumph TR-6. I also had a total loss in a race in a restored Triumph GT-6+ ( it took me 2 years to build it). In both cases I had that 'life got slow' feeling and I can doccument every little twitch I made - I can say no such thing for my skydiving mal's - they were pure instinct which means my instructors did ther job!!

After the p/c in tow (as a student) I wrote a 67 minute song (CD format, from 80's stuff to classical, it just fit my mood) but the horseshoe just freaked me. The CD is cool (PM for a copy) but the Horseshoe just made me think of what COULD have happened... ... ... I'm more the Man for it

Dave
"Know your friends but know your enemes (mals) better
-Sung Tsu (The Art of War??)

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[dsbbreck 0]

Had the misfortune of witnessing a friend of mine go in after a jump we were doing together.

All we could figure is that he had a hard pull or couldn't find his pilot chute. He cut away and then went right back into an RW position all the way to the ground. Never attempted to pull his reserve.

I chock up his death to not being current, not reviewing his emergency procedures and not understanding his equipment and how it worked.

Also, a cypres would have saved his life, but the RSL didn't. I think to many newbies think an RSL is going to save their life because they don't completely understand how it works. If the main isn't out, it's not going to pull the reserve.

It's up to you to save your life, not the equipment we install on our rigs.

David

"Socrates wasn't killed because he had the answer.......he was killed because he asked the question."

[sebas 0]

Like an instructor of mine once told us: A RSL costs a few dollars/euros. Your life is worth much more so NEVER EVER rely on it.

Cut away and pull reserve.

I had to pull my reserve for the first time two weeks ago because nothing happened after throwing the pilot. These words ran through my mind and I landed safely on my reserve.

Did cost me a crate of beer, but that's also a small price...

[dks13827 2]

I had a total on jump 15. pulled, braced,, say what ?? nothing !! Looked at the ripcord in my hand, yep, it's pulled. pitched it !! looked up .. yep, nothing there,, pulled reserve, no questions asked !! T-10 then came out hanging from me, chopped it,, right now ( reserve was open fine ). Very hard pull on jump 60, new larger canopy...oh my God,, one more try and it is reserve time !! I got the main pulled with 2 hands.

[rlucus 0]

How many is a crate?

[erdnarob 1]

Mental and PHYSICAL preparation helps. That's why the army, the athletes, pilots...use it. When it comes to do a cut away followed by a reserve activation, why people are not trained with what is working well for the categories mentioned above. Skydivers are a very special type of persons and somehow difficult to convince even when it concerns their benefits.
The best preparation for a cut away and reserve activation is to have the jumper put in a suspended harness. I train people (I can convince) that way. It doesn't take a big set up, just 2 hooks and an old pair of risers + a mattress or several pillows. The person doesn't have to hang up completely but can be on his feet just leaning forward toward the mattress. That set up provides an actual fall. In my opinion, that's the cause of the no pull in an actual situation since people probably become desoriented by that new sensation and got lost. Doing an actual fall on a mattress traines your brain about that sensation and prepares you better for an actual reserve activation. I can say that because when I train people that way, some of them start laughing when they fall on the mattress and forget completely to pull the reserve. After a couple of falls they do it perfectly. Remember that in a high stress situation, knowing what to do is not enough, you have to practice it physically.
For the training in a suspended harness, with my way, we don't have to touch at all the reserve pin. People interested can contact me.
Now a RLS use is a good tool but has some very bad facets either. Like if your 3 rings or riser fails on the RSL side, your are in the deep shit since your reserve is gone but you are still attached to the main by the other riser. If you have a spinning malfunction, having a RSL will not allow you to get stable for a good reserve deployment. The ony RSL which copes with those problems is the SKYHOOK. But being trained on a suspended harness is still the best way to cope with a cut away and reserve activation.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Now a RLS use is a good tool but has some very bad facets either.

Are you pro or con on RSL's? I still use one.

-My wing loadings are tame, 1.3 for the main, 1.0 on my reserve.

-You never know what the next jump will bring. One has to play the odds. Just like AAD's, RSL's have a chance to cause problems. However, the stats show they are more likely to help than hurt. I can't remember how many people I knew went in before AAD's became so wide spread in our sport.

[Andy9o8 0]

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I can't remember how many people I knew went in before AAD's became so wide spread in our sport.

Similarly, one of the earlier fatalities I knew personally was a jumper in the early 1980's who was in a canopy collision with another jumper, cut away very low, and his reserve was still extracting when he impacted. His rig did not have an RSL (they were not very common back then in non-student rigs).

[erdnarob 1]

I never felt good about using a RSL. Sort of an autonomy trip. I remember a cut away due to a line over and spinning fast when I undid the brakes. I deliberately waited 2-3 seconds after my cut away to recover some stability. I remember 2 things, something white and it was square (it was my reserve in the free bag) leaving vertically but I saw it on my right side which means I was still sideway with my right side up. However I had a beautiful and soft deployment. Now I have a RSL but it's a SKYHOOK because of its short vertical distance deployment (75 feet).

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[tbrown 26]

It's been a year now since Elsinore lost one of their best staff members to a no pull after a cutaway situation. As everyone now understands, it was a cascade of events and details that snowballed into his death. There was a jammed brake, no controllability check at a higher altitude, the brakes were only released later - and lower. Chest strap had already been loosened, camera wings unsnapped, a pillow reserve handle, no RSL or AAD.

The net result was a loose harness that suddenly lost the tension of the main canopy, followed by loose camera wings and inability to find or pull the pillow handle, again with no RSL or AAD. The guy had over 4000 jumps. Had a young family too.

So the last time I was up on a load, I looked back by the door and there sat a camera guy, who knew this guy, and he was sitting there with a pillow reserve handle and huge camera wings that were covering over his reserve handle as he sat. I know this guy and trust his judgement and ability to make his own decisions. I understand if camera guys don't use RSLs. But it still gave me chills to look at him and see that picture just a year later to the very day.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[happythoughts 0]

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he was sitting there with a pillow reserve handle and huge camera wings that were covering over his reserve handle as he sat.

(Note - I rarely sitfly)

Thanks for resurrecting this thread because of something
that I see a lot.

Sitflyers in shorts and a tshirt. If they don't tuck the tshirt in,
it may blow up over their handles while they are in a sit.

It is possible that it could stay that way.

Normally, not a problem. In the event that there is a need to
find the handles, that is not the time to discover this.

I tell people to tuck their shirt into their pants before putting
on their rig. Then the legstraps may help hold the shirt there.

[erdnarob 1]

Thanks a lot for your touching story. As you mentioned, no big problem taken individually but a series of events leading to a drama. In this case it seems to me that the determining factor was not checking early the airworthiness of the parachute.

I don't know why but jammed brakes seem to be back recently. I had one at Skydive Chicago Summerfest last year (my first ever), a new rigger I have supervised got one last year, two people at my DZ got one earlier this year and 2 days ago one of my students got one.
Now, I double check my brakes. Coming back to an RSL use, people are half and half about using them but having no statistics, it's difficult to know what is the best. Seeing the Skyhook videos convinced me to have that kind of RSL but I am not a cameraman.
A cameraman should maybe jump with at least one beeper (two is even better) and an AAD.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[riggerrob 558]

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Quote-----------------------------------------------------If you worry about an unstable opening causing your reserve to malfunction, you are wearing the wrong size of reserve! __________________________________________________

How would a different size reserve have less chance of malfunctioning from an unstable deployment?

t

....................................................................

Too many people jump reserves that are too small.

Sure a tiny reserve will save you if you if you are awake enough to open it high, over open fields, with both arms intact, etc.
Tiny reserves will not not save you when a series of problems occur on the same skydive.
Most aviation fatalities are found at the end of a string of mistakes.

[jb88ci 0]

I had my first reserve ride last weekend. Jump 21. I didn't even think about the RSL..i looked up..my main was still in the bag and wasn't coming out...i looked, located, punched right, punched left....done deal. Story from the ground says it all looked like it happened in reasonable time. i did however throw my handles away..but someone found them...

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Most aviation fatalities are found at the end of a string of mistakes.

Like deciding to be a skydiver? Sorry, Rob, I couldn't resist.

+1 on the bigger reserve. I load mine at 1 to 1, because I don't know where I'll be landing it, if I'll be injured, or even awake.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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i did however throw my handles away..but someone found them...

Do you train to huck them or hang on to them? I've found that makes all the difference. In our family, we train to hang on to them.

[jb88ci 0]

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i did however throw my handles away..but someone found them...

Do you train to huck them or hang on to them? I've found that makes all the difference. In our family, we train to hang on to them.

no, we train to hold onto them...wasn't what was on my mind at the time though...

[dks13827 2]

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following the endless debate about rsl, i'm wondering which kind of jumpers did not go for the silver after a cutaway: newbies, intermediate, experienced, knocked off jumpers during cutaway, ... ???
just trying to analyse some facts...

I am convinced that spinning disorientation causes many no reserve pulls ( I nearly had such an accident in a scuba diving situation, I was sick, and got very very dizzy. Believe me, you can hardly function at all ). This should be easy to demonstrate in hanging harness, spin em up !!! Hope to hear some results.

[airdvr 197]

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I was looking through a 1981 Parachutist the other day. And off the top of my head, the statistics were close to 42 deaths in 1980, 70% of which were no pull, low pull, or cutaway and no pull..

Don't know what that's supposed to prove, but it sure is different than today.

I think there were more than a few reasons for that. Back then if you dumped higher than 2 grand you were considered to be wasting valuable freefall time. Didn't leave much time for problems.

I can also remember alot of those no pulls were due to an equipment change and unfamiliar gear. I forget the exact sequence but people would pull red thinking that they were deploying the main?...I think it was because student gear had the main ripcord where the cutaway handle would have been...then when they realized that was wrong they would hand deploy, at which point the main would simply leave. If they had time they would try to deploy the reserve. All of this from 2 grand. That incident was repeated ad nauseum until student gear handle configuration changed to mirror experienced gear.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[e_nevett 0]

In my 9th jump I had an accidental cut away jumping from the plane. I was in a coach jump, and in the moment we left the plane I softly collide with the coach. In tha moment neither of us realise the situation. When I deployed at 4500, my main just left the container. Thanks RSL.
I only notice a little delay in the oppening, and whenI looked up to check, I was flying reserve.

9nth jump

[Boris73 0]

I had my first mal on my 13th Jump, with a 280 balance I pulled the ripcord the main came out, but was bowed in the middle and the slider was right at the top. I flared about 5-6 times trying to bring the slider down, but it just wouldn't come down. I flared a final time and I ended up getting line twists. I started trying to kick these out, then all of a sudden the canopy started spinning. At this point I thought fuck this, I pulled the cutaway, threw it ( I didn't want anything in my hands while trying to pull the reserve handle), even though during your training you get to sit in a harness and pull the cutaway to "experience" the drop, it is nothing compared to the real thing, it felt so weird. Next thing I know I grabbed my reserve handle and ripped that fucker out without even thinking about it (again this just goes to show training this procedure is VERY important). The time between my pulling my reserve handle and being under a canopy has never felt so long. I thought the reserve would never come out. I must admit though I have never had such a rush in my life, once I landed the canopy I was so hyper from the adrenaline, I had a huge grin n my face for hours

[SafetyNate 0]

WARNING! This goes in the what not to do category.

I planning on NOT pulling the silver on my next cut away on MY rig with a Sky Hook. However, I will be prepared to pull it if nothing were to come out. This is not advice. Just my own personal bad decision.

Is that what you (alain) were looking for?