It all started with a pilot chute hesitation

[ecnuob 0]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Normally I pull at 4000, was breaking of from group and double checked for separation. Deployed near end of 4000' audible 32-3500 guessing.

Slow to get stood up, finally opened with about 6 line twists and diving left. Diving quickly slowed and was able to kick out of twists, but considered chopping for a second.
In the saddle and out of twists first alti check at 2200. rear riser towards drop zone and notice I'm still drifting to the left a little while collapsing slider. Pop the brakes and the canopy turns significantly left, take a look at the canopy and everything seems fine. Thinking it was wind I 180 the other way to check. Nope still turns significantly left, right toggle to shoulder to fly straight. Alti reads 1500', Another inspection and thinking about cutaway again I finally notice that the bridal and PC are wrapped around left brake lines and a couple d lines. I decided I could control it enough to land and kept it.
Practice flared a few times, but had trouble keeping it straight and by this point to low to chop, so flew it in flat and level with no flare, PLF'd and all was fine except for everyone giving me shit for not flaring.

Post mortum: Kill line and internal cords of pilot chute had separated from the top of the pilot chute, so pilot chute was essentially a streamer. Slow extraction caused the line twists, but what I don't understand is how the pc and bridal ended up in my lines?

Does anyone think I should have chopped? Whats the best way to land an asymmetrically flying canopy?

[NovaTTT 1]

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Post mortum: Kill line and internal cords of pilot chute had separated from the top of the pilot chute, so pilot chute was essentially a streamer.

You handled the situation and walked away. Well done.

If the kill-line broke or separated from the PC you would have experienced a fully-inflated PC, not a collapsed PC. It sounds like the PC was either not cocked or was not completely/sufficiently cocked.

This might cause the PC to wash about in the burble as the main deploys - obviously there was enough tension for the main to escape. During this burble-dance, the PC could easily have entangled with the lines.

Perhaps it was the entanglement that caused the kill-line to separate - the force of the opening parachute was more than the connection could bear.

Take your kit to your rigger and ask him to examine it, including the length of the kill-line. Make sure your PC is properly cocked before jumping!

Finally - you handled the incident (nuisance occurance? minor malfunction?) and seem to have remained alert. Kudos.

Nova

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[ecnuob 0]

All internal lines of the PC broke, It's done, if you hold the hackey it turns into a circle instead of a triangle.

Probably had just enough tension on deployment to pop the pin and just get the bag off my back before is failed and the bag began bouncing it s way to deployment.

I would have thought that it still had enough drag to stay out of the canopy lines though. Guess I'm lucky it didnt wrap the lines while the canopy was still in the bag.

[diablopilot 2]

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If the kill-line broke or separated from the PC you would have experienced a fully-inflated PC, not a collapsed PC. It sounds like the PC was either not cocked or was not completely/sufficiently cocked.

If the kill line AND apex support tapes ALL broke, then the P/C would indeed streamer.

To the OP. Well done. My students are trained if it doesn't pass a control check by their hard deck, then get rid of it. Maximum amount of correction for safe flight is no more than one toggle pulled down to ear level.

That said, I'm still going to say well done, you landed safely and kept your wits about you.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[JohnRich 4]

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decided I could control it enough to land and kept it. Practice flared a few times, but had trouble keeping it straight and by this point to low to chop, so flew it in flat and level with no flare, PLF'd and all was fine except for everyone giving me shit for not flaring.

You CAN still flare in that situation, you just want to flare asymmetrically to keep the canopy flying straight. Lead with the toggle that you're already holding part-way down to keep the canopy flying straight, and lag with the other side, but pull them at the same rate as usual.

I've even landed a broken steering line by flaring with a rear riser on one side and the toggle on the other side. Practice a few times to get a feel for it before you reach the ground.

[mrbiceps 0]

For a low time jumper like myself i would have landed it but probably be more worried about trying to flare and end with and uneven flare and braking something. So i would have got her straight into the wind and copped a plf. You walked away so u made the right decision. well done.

[JohnRich 4]

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For a low time jumper like myself i would have landed it but probably be more worried about trying to flare and end with and uneven flare and braking something.

Flaring your canopy does not have to be mechanically the same every time. The situation is not one whereby if the canopy starts to turn one way, that you can't do anything about it. It's a dynamic process that can vary with circumstances. If you start your flare as-usual and the canopy starts turning to one side, then stop the pull on that side and apply more pull to the other side to straighten it back out, then continue pulling on both to complete the flare. Adjust dynamically as necessary as you pull, to keep the canopy straight.

All the student training has people locked into believing that both hands must be pulled down evenly and symmetrically, or else! Well, that's the best we can do for students, but once a jumper advances beyond that skill level, they need to start learning to be more responsive to control inputs, and quit acting like robots.

[Bertt 0]

I wouldn't quarrel with your decision. You did fine. One thing that struck me was " 1500'... finally notice pilot chute wrapped around lines". When you check your canopy, you really want to take a good look at everything over your head to check for rips, tears, broken lines, tangles, etc.
Diablopilot - no more than one toggle pulled down to the ear - sounds like a good rule of thumb to help with decision making. I'm going to remember that one. Thanks.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[ecnuob 0]

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For a low time jumper like myself i would have landed it but probably be more worried about trying to flare and end with and uneven flare and braking something.

All the student training has people locked into believing that both hands must be pulled down evenly and symmetrically, or else! Well, that's the best we can do for students, but once a jumper advances beyond that skill level, they need to start learning to be more responsive to control inputs, and quit acting like robots.

I know you can, and have pulled unevenly on the toggles when flaring in a turbulent landing (albeit i was on a much larger canopy at the time). But after a couple of practice flares up high resulting in more roll then I felt comfortable landing, as Mrbiceps said, i was WAY to nervous about causing a turn. Since i was flying in essentially half brakes (but with a distorted canopy) i figured the flight speed was low enough to handle.


Any advice on canopy drills that could help practice for this type of situation? I've been doing alot of high perf toggle turns and then trying to flare out of them level and on a pre-chosen heading. Been hard to keep from rolling back the other way or still being out to the side of the canopy when it recovers to level flight.

[ecnuob 0]

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One thing that struck me was " 1500'... finally notice pilot chute wrapped around lines". When you check your canopy, you really want to take a good look at everything over your head to check for rips, tears, broken lines, tangles, etc.

Yeah, I hear you on that, Couldn't believe i didn't notice it either. Was concentrating more on looking at the canopy itself then the lines. Lesson learned on that one for sure. I was actually looking for broken lines when i noticed the PC out of place. I think it may have also been aiding the turn since it was out to the side causing drag.

[mrbiceps 0]

why dont u try and simulate the situation by unstowing only one brake and then grab the rear riser on the unstowed brake side and try and fly it straight and practise flaring like this.

[Bertt 0]

I wasn't criticizing. In all the excitement, it would be extremely easy to miss something like that. I just threw that in for emphasis, because I thought this was a very informative thread.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[AndyMan 7]

Without being too hard on you, because you lived: Some things to think about.

A hard deck is a hard deck. We teach 2500 feet. As an instructor with thousands of jumps and every rating in the book, my hard deck is usually 1800 feet. Since you're not an instructor and don't have every rating in the book, I would recommend that your hard deck be more than a few hundred feet higher than mine.

When we talk about a hard deck, we mean something quite simple - you simply do not pass through this altitude with a parachute that you don't intend to land. This means that you have opened your main with sufficient altitude to do a controlability check and made the decision to cutaway if necessary. If you hit your hard deck and your main hasn't passed, get rid of it.

The narrative that you've presented showed that you opened with plenty of altitude, but did not do any kind of controlability check on the parachute. Your narrative did not mention any thoughts towards a hard deck, or a decision point. I hope that your (former) instructors gave you a hard time over this.

Secondly, I'm a bit annoyed that you're reporting your altitude based on the audible tones. Audibles are backups, right? Remember, batteries fail without warning. I would hope that you're using your visual altimeter and (as you get better at it), your eyes to judge altitude before you depend on an audible.

The malfunction that you had is an odd one - certainly not common. It may or may not have been preventable, but to me - that isn't the point. If you do enough jumps, malfunctions (both high-speed and low-speed) are inevitable. The people who have long skydiving careers are those that are able to deal with them.

There's a lot of people who've posted to this thread saying that you did all-right because you landed ok, and to be honest - I don't disagree. You did all-right, and you walked away. Cool. But, you can do better. You can improve your altitude awareness so you're not depending on audibles, and you can improve your altitude awareness after the parachute opens so that you can deal with malfunctions in adequate time.

If you open at 3500 feet you have plenty of time to identify and deal with a slow speed malfunction without being rushed. :)

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[DeNReN 0]

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As an instructor with many thousand jumps and every rating in the book.

time to update that profile

[ecnuob 0]

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Without being too hard on you, because you lived: Some things to think about.

A hard deck is a hard deck. We teach 2500 feet. As an instructor with thousands of jumps and every rating in the book, my hard deck is usually 1800 feet. Since you're not an instructor and don't have every rating in the book, I would recommend that your hard deck be more than a few hundred feet higher than mine.

When we talk about a hard deck, we mean something quite simple - you simply do not pass through this altitude with a parachute that you don't intend to land. This means that you have opened your main with sufficient altitude to do a controlability check and made the decision to cutaway if necessary. If you hit your hard deck and your main hasn't passed, get rid of it.

The narrative that you've presented showed that you opened with plenty of altitude, but did not do any kind of controlability check on the parachute. Your narrative did not mention any thoughts towards a hard deck, or a decision point. I hope that your (former) instructors gave you a hard time over this.

High speed mal, it's gone ASAP. No hard decks have ever been discussed but i will consider that from now on. However I can't imagine an emergent situation were I'm gonna get a look at my alti, in a high speed when time is of the essence what good is it going to do to waste the time looking at it, Cut and Deploy.

The scary twisting part was over, life was calm and I was infact doing control tests. I'm not one to ditch a relatively good canopy in favor of one i don't know(the devil you know...) And was up until 1500 doing control checks, turning, flaring and so on sorry for not detailing EVERY control move from 2200-1500. It had passed up till that point, I could maintain a heading, steer and slow the canopy. I made the decision at 1500 that i was keeping it, which i and others feel is a completely reasonable altitude to perform a cutaway from a slow mal. It wasn't until I started to do fully practiced landing flares below 1500 that it was clear to me that keeping it completely level while flaring was difficult. I adapted and chose a conservative line and landed out of the main traffic pattern/landing area without a flare.

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Secondly, I'm a bit annoyed that you're reporting your altitude based on the audible tones. Audibles are backups, right? Remember, batteries fail without warning. I would hope that you're using your visual altimeter and (as you get better at it), your eyes to judge altitude before you depend on an audible.

I reported a guess on my final deployment altitude based on audible tones, would you prefer i was looking at my alti whilst pulling? I don't rely on and have always made it a goal to deploy before my audible even makes a peep and with the exception of this jump and one other have. The decision to go below on this one was because I had temporarily lost sight of the the other low timer on a four-way that had broken up a little messy. So I rolled over at 4500 hundred to double check my airspace, rolled back to stable and deployed.

Hard and fast rules, while some are appropriate and save lives, being robotic and saying I have to do this every time by this time can also kill, and is only necessary when you have left yourself no margin for error or outs. Leave yourself some margin and flexibility is my feeling. Setting a intended deployment alt of 4000 affords me this margin. However if my intended alt was 2500, then I'm damn sure going to feel as those I have to dump no matter what, and I'm going to have to make a cutaway decision based on instantaneous gut feeling and without all the facts.

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The malfunction that you had is an odd one - certainly not common. It may or may not have been preventable, but to me - that isn't the point. If you do enough jumps, malfunctions (both high-speed and low-speed) are inevitable. The people who have long skydiving careers are those that are able to deal with them.

There's a lot of people who've posted to this thread saying that you did all-right because you landed ok, and to be honest - I don't disagree. You did all-right, and you walked away. Cool. But, you can do better. You can improve your altitude awareness so you're not depending on audibles, and you can improve your altitude awareness after the parachute opens so that you can deal with malfunctions in adequate time.

If you open at 3500 feet you have plenty of time to identify and deal with a slow speed malfunction without being rushed. :)

Exactly, the only moment of rushed feeling was during the spins and line twists, clam, unrushed, levelheaded decision making is what took place after that

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_Am

[AndyMan 7]

Consider this some friendly tips:

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High speed mal, it's gone ASAP. No hard decks have ever been discussed but i will consider that from now on.

PLEASE, review the SIM - http://www.uspa.org/SIM.aspxphttp://www.uspa.org/SIM.aspx[/url]. I hope very much that your instructors did teach the concept of a hard deck, and that simply you do not remember it.

USPA standard is to teach 2500 feet to AFF students, so this should have been drilled into you during your first jump course. As a jumper learning to progress through the sport, I hope you would choose somewhere between 2000 and 2500 as a hard deck. Never go below that altitude without a parachute that you intend to land.

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The scary twisting part was over, life was calm and I was infact doing control tests. I'm not one to ditch a relatively good canopy in favor of one i don't know(the devil you know...) And was up until 1500 doing control checks, turning, flaring and so on sorry for not detailing EVERY control move from 2200-1500. It had passed up till that point, I could maintain a heading, steer and slow the canopy. I made the decision at 1500 that i was keeping it, which i and others feel is a completely reasonable altitude to perform a cutaway from a slow mal.

1500 feet is WAY too low to be making this choice, especially when you open at 3500 feet. Get in a habit similar to: Track, Wave off, and pull. Throughout the deployement, be aware of other canopies in the air around you. When the canopy opens, continue to scan for traffic, and reach up to grab the toggles. As you unstow the toggles, pull them all the way down and do a practice flare. Turn back to the DZ and ensure the parachute is flying straight. You don't need to do specific left and right turns as long as the parachute is flying straight and you're aware of how its flying. All together, the above should take you no more than 10 seconds and burn no more than 500 feet. Straight? Stable? Steerable? If no, ka-ching!

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I reported a guess on my final deployment altitude based on audible tones, would you prefer i was looking at my alti whilst pulling?

Yes. I assume your altitimeter is on your left hand, which is the hand you counter with while you pull? It's right inf front of your eyes. Look at it. Always know your altitude.

Anyways - I'm trying not to be too hard you - you did allright and got the important part done by landing ok. Good job.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[tetra316 0]

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High speed mal, it's gone ASAP. No hard decks have ever been discussed but i will consider that from now on.

You should always know your altitude no matter what happens. To lose track is to flirt with death. You should have your hard decks already known. There is no playing with this.

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The scary twisting part was over, life was calm and I was infact doing control tests. I'm not one to ditch a relatively good canopy in favor of one i don't know(the devil you know...) And was up until 1500 doing control checks, turning, flaring and so on sorry for not detailing EVERY control move from 2200-1500. It had passed up till that point, I could maintain a heading, steer and slow the canopy. I made the decision at 1500 that i was keeping it, which i and others feel is a completely reasonable altitude to perform a cutaway from a slow mal. It wasn't until I started to do fully practiced landing flares below 1500 that it was clear to me that keeping it completely level while flaring was difficult. I adapted and chose a conservative line and landed out of the main traffic pattern/landing area without a flare.

Hard deck means your controlability checks are done above this altitude. If not you should seriously rethink keeping your canopy. Hard deck is the last possible altitude for deciding if you have landable canopy.

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I reported a guess on my final deployment altitude based on audible tones, would you prefer i was looking at my alti whilst pulling?

How the hell can you not. A stable pull position dictates that your left be right in front of your head, even in the case of a reserve pull

[jacketsdb23 45]

To be fair I think there are many people who do not look at their altimeter at deployment. It is common for me to look at the altimeter during break off altitude, track for space, and then pull without looking at my altimeter. I'm usually too busy looking around the sky to make sure I'm clear. Using audibles in my opinion are no more dangerous then relying on our battery operated Neptunes.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[alberto1980 0]

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If the kill line AND apex support tapes ALL broke, then the P/C would indeed streamer.

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Could you please explain this?

[ecnuob 0]

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To be fair I think there are many people who do not look at their altimeter at deployment. It is common for me to look at the altimeter during break off altitude, track for space, and then pull without looking at my altimeter. I'm usually too busy looking around the sky to make sure I'm clear. Using audibles in my opinion are no more dangerous then relying on our battery operated Neptunes.

Pretty much exactly this is what I do, though most of the time I do take a quick look when I stop tracking. Once the pull time is reached I was taught that looking around for obstacles was way more important then staring at your alti.

As for neptunes and the like I've often wondered this, what makes everyone think that thing is any more or less reliable then an audible... Other then obviuosly haveing completly crapped out and gone blank. I plan to get one but its gonna be myin helmet aubile and a flight logger, ill stick with a mechanical alti for my wrist.

[ecnuob 0]

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If the kill line AND apex support tapes ALL broke, then the P/C would indeed streamer.

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Could you please explain this?

There are three lines in the pc, all joined at the hacky, two to support it from streching out lengthwise and the kill line. The kill line is sewn to the support tapes and the support tape to the top/apex of the bridle, that attachment failed allowing the PC to collapse lenghtwise having very little drag. Could very easily been a total mal/ PC in tow.

[alberto1980 0]

yes but you still have the mesh holding the pilot chute fabric right? well then wouldn't it inflate? A rigger please step in

[riggerpaul 1]

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yes but you still have the mesh holding the pilot chute fabric right? well then wouldn't it inflate? A rigger please step in

The typical main pilot chute is generally constructed of two flat circles of material. The top circle is a fully woven fabric, the bottom is mesh.

A flat circular parachute of this size does not have much shape to it, and will catch very little air.

So there are "apex tapes" inside the pilot chute that create the shape needed to inflate and maximize drag.

If you look at an inflated pilot chute, it is not a round ball (like a tandem drogue), but it is actually much more triangular. The mesh forms a conical shape, and the top fabric has a rounded shape with the center pulled down. The apex tapes are what pulls the center down. You will find that the apex tapes pull the center down to about the same distance from the base of the pilot chute as to the rim where the two circles of fabric are sewn together. Another way to describe the shape of the top skin of the pilot chute would be like half a bagel, but without the hole in the center.

No matter how you like to describe it, the apex tapes are essential to the function of the pilot chute.

[popsjumper 2]

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Slow to get stood up,...
...Post mortum: Kill line and internal cords of pilot chute had separated from the top of the pilot chute, so pilot chute was essentially a streamer.

What you describe is not a pilot chute hesitation. You describe a pilot chute in tow.

Big difference.

Please refer to the SIM or an instructor for emergency procedures for the two.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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To be fair I think there are many people who do not look at their altimeter at deployment. It is common for me to look at the altimeter during break off altitude, track for space, and then pull without looking at my altimeter. I'm usually too busy looking around the sky to make sure I'm clear.

What they are talking about is checking your alti while you are pulling.

You've cleared your airspace and made the decision to pull. The left hand (with right-hand deployment) is right in front of your face. Knowing your pull altitude is a good thing. It gives you a baseline for EP altitude.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239