Student Round Reserves

[Kimblair13 0]

Any DZ's use round reserves in there student gear or any other gear? If so, what are the reasons for not getting modern gear? I know of one DZ and have seen a two out situation landed a while back and then more recently the reserve landed where the student broke her ankle.

[sundevil777 94]

Don't know which DZs might still use rounds, but some would argue that a round deploying next to another canopy is less likely to entangle, although that argument is somewhat dampened by the PC staying attached, compared to the freebag of a square reserve.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[jurgencamps 0]

Quote

Any DZ's use round reserves in there student gear or any other gear? If so, what are the reasons for not getting modern gear? I know of one DZ and have seen a two out situation landed a while back and then more recently the reserve landed where the student broke her ankle.

And people get killed under square parachutes.
Round parachute is still a very very safe parachute. Can somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I always believed that a two out situation is only dangerous when you have two square parachutes out.
Windlimits are lower when you jump a round reserve (if you are smart at least )
Jurgen

[bmcd308 0]

>>a two out situation is only dangerous when you have two square parachutes out. <<

Still dangerous with a round, since there is no guarantee that even a round reserve will open when entangled with a malfunctioning main.

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[teason 0]

Our DZ has round reserves. Maybe I've been doing this too long but when I've seen it hit the fan quite a few times (I've been traing FJCs since '94. I once saw a main and reserve criss-cross on deployment due to a low pull and AAD fire. The reserve went through the main lines and opened up. This caused several major line burns on the reserve. I know one makes a poor sample but I really think a square reserve would not have performed well.

Earlier this month I also had a first jump student exit unstable and catch his foot it the lines. When he cut away, his canopy stayed attached to his foot. I watched the reserve deploy next to the streamering main. I can't help but imagine a square opening and how it tends to shake itself open and wonder what could have happened.

Anecdotes aside, the round has it's limitations and hazzards just as the square. Other factors can influence the decision to put a round or square in a students reserve pack tray.

For example landing areas may make a round too hazzardous. On the other side of the ledger, FXC 12000 are less refined and can active 1500 feet above the set altitude make two out more common.

Just because a square is a better canopy, doesn't mean it's always the most appropriate.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[freeflygirlz 0]

I just read the book "Bird Man" by Leo Valentin, the founder of wing suits. It's his autobiography, he started jumping in 1938 and tells a lot about the 1940ies and 1950ies. In this book there are stories about jumpers who died because main and reserve (of course rounds!!) entangled. There are also pictures in it.
I would not jump with a round reserve, and so I would never expect my students to do so. I suppose it's about money if a DZ still uses round reserves.

[teason 0]

I wouldn't jump anything but a crossbraced eliptical loaded at 1.7 to 1, and so I would expect my students to do so. I suppose it's about money if a DZ still uses Mantas.

*sniff* what's that smell ... is that sarcasm?

Sorry to be harsh but it's really insulting for you to infer that a DZ will use substandard equipment because it's cheap. Yeah rounds can entangle, that wasn't the point.

The points for and against rounds are;
1.) For round reserves, you need lots of open feild. Tight landing areas make rounds less safe.
2.) FXC 12000 are known to fire high causing two out situations to be more common. With an unpredictible FJ student and the ability for rounds to sustain damage, I like round on square more than square on square.
3.) Squares don't squid when you over load them
4.) Rounds treat confused/ scared/ unconcious students like cargo.
5.) training square on square adds more to an already overhelmed student in the FJC.

Do you get it now? There is far more to the arguement than "They're cheap" and "Rounds suck"

For the record I'm not oppossed to Square reserves on students. I am oppossed to flawed logic determining what is safe.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[jurgencamps 0]

Just like you said. Rounds are maybe less modern but certainly not less safe.
Each has its own advantages and disadvantages.

[PhreeZone 15]

Do you go through and retrain all the jumpers as they progress so they know how to handle 2 out situations once they get their own gear?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[freeflygirlz 0]

1. we do have a lot of open space, this makes jumping for students safer, even with squares
2. THATs the reason, why we use Cypres. Here we could get into a money-discussion again. I wouldn't jump with a FXC and so I would not expect my students to do so.
3. That's the reason, why we don't overload student canopies!!
4. Confused or scared students need good ground preparation and qualified support by radio. Unconcious students are not very frequent.
5. We do train our students on two-out-situations. Thats part of the ground school. We give our students enough time to get trained. Of course it's quite a lot of new stuff, but thats just the way it is. As Instructor it's our job to give them what they need and prepare them for their first jump.

I agree with you, that there are a few more aspects to think about in this question. But I'm still of the opinion, that in common skydiving schools there are more pros for square reserves than for round reserves.
blue skies

[teason 0]

Just to clarify, some of those points were against rounds. I'm not saying open fields justify rounds, I'm saying tight landing areas can make rounds a bad choice.

Also, Rounds have a tighter range for weight because of its propensity for squiding. Squares can give you more versatility on weight.

Finally, I do know of DZs that prefer FXC 12000 because the activation altitude can easily be checked and changed to suit the jumper's needs. One such DZ had a student fatality after the 1000' activation altitude prove to be too low given his instability. After that all IAD students had thier FXCs set at 1500' as opposed to freefallers who were set at 1000' to 1200'. I don't want to get into a discussion about appropriate altitude, I'm just making the point that some prefer the 12000.(besides, they can cost more than Cypres' to maintain!)

As with any change in technology, the pros and cons must be examined to make the right choices. I am looking at purchasing 10-15 new sets of student gear this winter. I'm a big believer in round reserves but I am probably going with squares. The price difference is not the issue, I have to feel confident in introducing new training and new technology.

To have squares I must first be confident in the required changes to the FJC. We must also find better ways to identify the "problem students" that can slip through the cracks. Finally we must educate ourselves on the best ways to deal with the "unusual situations" from a radio controller's perspective. I was a FJC instructor years ago when square reserves were introduced in student gear. Not enough consideration was given to adequate training (even though the DZO thought it was fine).

I think we can definately agree on one thing. We would never jump gear we weren't 100% confident with and nor should our students.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[teason 0]

That's a really good point, Phree. Our DZ is really lacking in high time jumpers. We have two who are 1000+(that includes me!) and then the next most experienced has less than 300.

We struggle with training in all areas. We even encourage our jumpers to visit our rival DZ whose regulars boycott us. We cannot rely on the informal training that is abundant at many DZs across Can/US.

We are developing new programs for developing skills for the experienced jumper including an upcoming equipment seminar (this Friday) which does address gear considerations such as two out situations.We are also introducing reliability charts. Reliability charts have been used in hang gliding for a couple of decades and have reduced accidents dramatically. They teach people how to assess the envornmental and personal factors that can cause you to make poor decisions.

Sorry, I started to ramble. We have become hyper-aware of the needs of progressing jumpers and pay perticular attention to what it takes for them to make the right decisions.

I get kinda passionate!

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Quote

5.) training square on square adds more to an already overhelmed student in the FJC

You think so? Other than a 2-out situation, what training is needed for a square reserve that you don't already get for a square main?

Round reserves require their own unique training that can be confusing to a student, other than the obvious change in flight performance...

- you should assume you'll have to do a PLF
- you should never flare (i've seen lots of people make that mistake)
- you probably want to land slightly cross-wind instead of upwind

Round reserves have worked well for many years, and always will. I'm not opposed to their use, as long as it is done in a safe manner. That being said, any DZ that is still using them (wether safely or not) is going to get some bad publicity, and I could see it working against them in a lawsuit... were I a DZO, I'd use squares for those reasons if nothing else.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[meatbomb 0]

Kim,

We still use round resrves, and indeed round mains...for the simple reason that squares kill first time jumpers, whereas rounds don't.

The very worst injury that occurs on a round first jump is a clean break of the leg/ankle.

Injuries on squares tend towards spiral fractures, compound fractures, and death.

The injury rates are comparable at our DZ, jump for jump. Which would you rather have your first timers jump?

Our square kit contains square on square though...Easier to train, and less for the student to take in, than square on round.

To turn your question back on you...
"Any DZ's use square reserves in there (sic) student gear or any other gear? If so, what are the reasons for not getting safer gear? I know of one DZ and have seen a two out situation landed a while back and then more recently the reserve landed where the student had a spiral fracture of his leg. I also know of at least 5 deaths in the past 5 years due to square on square entanglements."

---
Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
Piccies

[PhreeZone 15]

I've pulled the fatality reports for the last 10 years. Here is the break down of student deaths in that time (excluding tandems):

1 flew into the side of a tractor trailer on an off landing
1 gear mal (broken plastic reserve pin)
5 low cutaways and pulled reserve too low
1 seperation from a round main using Capewells (who still used those in 1997 )
1 heart attack
1 instance of forgetting to clip the static line and low reserve pull
2 instances of riding spinning line twists to the ground
3 entangement in a static line depolyment and entangement with the square reserve
5 unknowns
6 static line jumps that lead to entangement which was rode in
3 static line entangements with a round reserve that entangeled
1 flew into a hanger
1 riser hung-up under the reserve container, resulting in a spinning main.
2 cutaways at less then 200 feet
1 Static line entangement that lead to a reserve PC in tow
1 horseshoe with the reserve entangling with it
1 RSL caused entangment reserve deployment
1 instance of firing a reserve into a mal then cutting away
1 no pull
2 static line entangements/Mals that lead to a low cutaway
1 Round landing on powerlines
1 Pilot chute in tow on a round main, no reserve pull
1 downwind landing onto a runway (head injuries)
1 roundlanding that broke her jaw then drug her. choked to death on her blood
2 instances of the harness breaking and leading to death

Honestly.. it looks like static line is worse off then having square mains.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[nate_1979 9]

Quote

Kim,

We still use round resrves, and indeed round mains...for the simple reason that squares kill first time jumpers, whereas rounds don't.

The very worst injury that occurs on a round first jump is a clean break of the leg/ankle.

Injuries on squares tend towards spiral fractures, compound fractures, and death.

Sounds like proper training is the answer for this does it not? Seriously, to break a leg / ankle / get fractures / die on a square canopy, you have to have screwed up somewhere.. Seems to me that you can break your leg / ankle on a round doing everything right, cuz the canopy just drops you hard, period.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[wmw999 2,129]

You can do everything right on a square and have a bad day, too. When rounds were common for students, I really don't remember a much larger number of significant injuries. Minor ones, probably (sprains, bruises). But not that many major ones. And I was an instructor at a fairly busy DZ during those days.

One difference is that in the days before tandem, your first jump was always your own to screw up. Now, with tandem, the people who really just want to make one, and who aren't that invested in the future, have someone to help them. I honestly think that helps to weed out some of the less-motivated students from the ranks of first jumpers.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[RogerRamjet 0]

Quote

I've pulled the fatality reports for the last 10 years. Here is the break down of student deaths in that time (excluding tandems):

1 flew into the side of a tractor trailer on an off landing
1 gear mal (broken plastic reserve pin)
5 low cutaways and pulled reserve too low
1 seperation from a round main using Capewells (who still used those in 1997 )
1 heart attack
1 instance of forgetting to clip the static line and low reserve pull
2 instances of riding spinning line twists to the ground
3 entangement in a static line depolyment and entangement with the square reserve
5 unknowns
6 static line jumps that lead to entangement which was rode in
3 static line entangements with a round reserve that entangeled
1 flew into a hanger
1 riser hung-up under the reserve container, resulting in a spinning main.
2 cutaways at less then 200 feet
1 Static line entangement that lead to a reserve PC in tow
1 horseshoe with the reserve entangling with it
1 RSL caused entangment reserve deployment
1 instance of firing a reserve into a mal then cutting away
1 no pull
2 static line entangements/Mals that lead to a low cutaway
1 Round landing on powerlines
1 Pilot chute in tow on a round main, no reserve pull
1 downwind landing onto a runway (head injuries)
1 roundlanding that broke her jaw then drug her. choked to death on her blood
2 instances of the harness breaking and leading to death

Honestly.. it looks like static line is worse off then having square mains.

Perhaps it matters what type static line was/is in use?

I was the resident rigger at Z-Hills commercial center in 1973/74 and close to the operation there for another 3 years. Z-Hills was probably the largest student dropzone anywhere at the time. During that 5 year period, we had 0 (zero) static line malfunctions. We used the T-10 direct bag system (same as the military).

For those that weren't around then or haven't seen one, the T-10 is a 35' parabolic round. Used with the direct bag system, the static line and bag remain with the aircraft after deployment.

The only serious injury I saw in that time was a power line landing by a jumper who did not respond to the radio calls at all (the radio was heard clearly by the EMT personnel during rescue while we were talking other jumpers down). A non-responding student could fly into an obsticle under a square just as easily.

I'd bet most if not all of those static line incidents you posted were pilot chute assist type rigs rather than direct bag.

Not biased toward round or square for students, but based on my experiences at Z-Hills, if you go round for students, it should be round/round and direct bag deployment. I liked the T-10 for this purpose because it was dead reliable and would land anyone from 90 lbs to 250lbs at a reasonable decent rate.

-----------------------
Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[PhreeZone 15]

From the reposts it was about split if it was the Direct bag or a PCA.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[BrianM 1]

Quote

We used the T-10 direct bag system
[snip]
The only serious injury I saw in that time was a power line landing by a jumper who did not respond to the radio calls at all
[snip]
A non-responding student could fly into an obsticle under a square just as easily.

In fact I saw exactly the same scenario a few years ago but on a square: first jump student ignored the radio, landed in powerlines (canopy was in the powerlines, she was suspended). She was not injured, BTW.

Photo made the front page of the paper, too...

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[riggerrob 558]

Back in 1983 - when we converted our student gear from military surplus rounds to Para-Commanders - our injury rate went from a dozen a year to ONE.
Injury rates fell even further when we converted to square mains, however the primary advantage of squares is their lower malfunction rate.
The primary reason that I prefer to give students square reserves is that it simplifies ground.
"So you pulled red and pulled silver and now you are flying a similar canopy."