BillyVance 34 #26 December 10, 2009 Quote Billy, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this... You have two options: 1. Before you begin work, turn the circuit breaker off at the panel. or, 2. Give the camera to the wife (who probably takes better pictures) so she can get a good shot of you laying on the floor, cussing and seeing big, bright, blue spots in your eyes. Dude, it ain't me that's that stupid. My wife is! I know better to turn off the power at the circuit panel. My wife on the other hand, one day she was trying to fix the wires to the switches in the hall bathroom (when we were renovating it), and the screwdriver she was holding touched the live wire, sparks flew and knocked her back. That was the last time she fucked around with wiring. I do need an electrical tester so I'd know if a wire is live or not. When I took apart the switch in the closet and didn't know which wire was the live one (running from the circuit panel) I put on leather work gloves, got a wide metal scraper/spreader with a plastic handle, turned the circuit breaker on, then checked each wire. The one that sparked, was the live one. Then I went back and shut off the breaker and then labeled the live wire. Sparks are fun though, but I ain't stupid enough to get electrocuted."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #27 December 10, 2009 Billy, get something like this to trace the circuit back to the panel. If it is a light socket, get the little screw adapter that the transmitter will plug into. You can get them at HD/Lowes. Using the "Short-it-to-find-it" method weakens the breaker. 50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #28 December 10, 2009 Already ahead of you. Got a tool for that today. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #29 December 10, 2009 Wet butter knife?50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #30 December 10, 2009 Quote Wet butter knife? No, a real honest to god electrical circuit tester tool. 4 lights on it, 1 for each voltage (110, 220, 277 and 460) with a red and a black prong"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,082 #31 December 10, 2009 Hi 912, QuoteALL installed wiring between a 20A breaker and its loads MUST be #12 or larger per NEC. I am not trying to argue with you. I am not really well versed with the NEC; but I did spend 5 yrs on a lot of mountain tops working with some very good electricians. It is my understanding that a 20A breaker requires #12 wire from the breaker to anywhere. And a 15A breaker requires #14 wire from the breaker to anywhere. I was told that you CANNOT use heavier wire because if an electrician were to merely open up a j-box and, for instance, see #12 wire he will rightly assume that it is coming from a 20A breaker. This is why one cannot use larger wire than called for. Your thoughts? Thanks, JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefalljason 0 #32 December 10, 2009 Hey Jerry, I know you were not talking to me but I am a licensed electrician. To answer your question, sometimes it is required (by the NEC) to oversize the conductor (wire) to account for voltage drop. There are calculations (that I won't go into here) to determine the min. conductor size for a given application. There are several factors that come into play(distance from source to load, load type and size, type of insulation on the wire, is the wire run through free air, in a raceway or conduit, etc.) Hope this helps. Blue Skies, Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #33 December 11, 2009 Ding Ding Ding, winner. You can use a larger wire between breaker and device, and smaller wire IN/as part of a device (called fixture wiring). The device was engineered for current draw and all wiring associated has been sized accordingly. Even though your table lamp is plugged into a 20 receptacle protected by a 20 amp breaker, the cord is often 16 or 18 ga. But the wiring between breaker and receptacle must at minimum be 14ga for 15 amp breaker and 12ga for 20 amp breaker. And I don't want to bring up conductor amperage derating for number of conductors in a conduit. 50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #34 December 11, 2009 In addition to a tester for live circuit maybe you want a multimeter and a tone generator and detector for tracing circuits. Don't worry Billy there is a light on the detector and on the trace detector. Just plug it in and any receptacle or breaker that is connected will be discovered. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydveraz 0 #35 December 11, 2009 Correct me if I am wrong, But all he wants to do is install a light, Not rewire Hoover Dam! Arizona only has two seasons, Hot and HOTTER! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #36 December 11, 2009 Quote Correct me if I am wrong, But all he wants to do is install a light, Not rewire Hoover Dam! Well, the hovver dam is being retrofit with a bypass bridge. Maybe that's his next project.My photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydveraz 0 #37 December 11, 2009 Quote Quote Correct me if I am wrong, But all he wants to do is install a light, Not rewire Hoover Dam! Well, the hovver dam is being retrofit with a bypass bridge. Maybe that's his next project. Yea, I know. Been across that dam many a time. That bridge is going to be way up there! One crane has already fell down due to wind storms there.Arizona only has two seasons, Hot and HOTTER! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #38 December 11, 2009 Well, I finally figured it out. It took the better part of 4 hours. All 5 new lights were hooked up and the test run was successful. I pulled the existing romex cable from the switch to the ceiling light up and out through a hole I cut through the 2x4 stud that's screwed onto the wall as a shelf support, then routed it through holes bored in the studs to the first new light, then installed the new wire all the way around the closet with a break at each light fixture location and routed the new wire back into the hole in the wall and back down to the switch. Lights have been on for more than 30 minutes with no problems. Pic attached. If you don't like the quality of the photo, go fuck yourself. It was from my blackberry camera. You can see 4 of the lights dangling just under the shelf. The 5th is out of view. Next step is getting the drywall on. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 123 #39 December 11, 2009 so now when the house burns down the insurance company has proof that they don't have to payGive one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #40 December 11, 2009 You should bring it up,,,how many wires can go in a 1/2 and 3/4 conduit ? Thankssmile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #41 December 11, 2009 Quote . . .the most simple answer could be to install an outlet or junction box above the shelf and hidden from view, at every location you want one of those light. That is exactly what I did in my kitchen with those exact same lights. I assume you got them at Lowes. I put 7 of them under counters in various places. The only thing I may not have done to electric code was run one of the wires behind a cabinet to get to the outlet box. As stated in previous postings, I don't believe this 'lamp cord' electric wire is rated to be buried in the walls. I believe technically it has to be completely exposed for the entire run. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #42 December 11, 2009 Quote so now when the house burns down the insurance company has proof that they don't have to pay Yep - I would delete that picture. If you cover that wire with drywall and that wire is not in conduit you have probably just violated code. Check with you local inspector or hurry up and put the drywall up so nobody see it. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #43 December 11, 2009 QuoteYou should bring it up,,,how many wires can go in a 1/2 and 3/4 conduit ? Thanks Romex should not be installed in conduit, as it is not rated for that. If all the same size conductor, you can use the fill charts in the NEC. Example of common wires used by handymen. If different size conductors in the same conduit, you can fill a conduit to 40% of its cross sectional area. Add up all areas of the conductors. Don't go over 40%. If the conduit is 24" long or less, you can go to 60% fill because it is considered a nipple. But this info has nothing to do with derating of ampacity of the conductor. That answer is RTM(NEC) because it is too much to explain here and I don't like to type that much.50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #44 December 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteYou should bring it up,,,how many wires can go in a 1/2 and 3/4 conduit ? Thanks Romex should not be installed in conduit, as it is not rated for that. If all the same size conductor, you can use the fill charts in the NEC. Example of common wires used by handymen. If different size conductors in the same conduit, you can fill a conduit to 40% of its cross sectional area. Add up all areas of the conductors. Don't go over 40%. If the conduit is 24" long or less, you can go to 60% fill because it is considered a nipple. But this info has nothing to do with derating of ampacity of the conductor. That answer is RTM(NEC) because it is too much to explain here and I don't like to type that much. But he is removing some of the romex covering and exposing wires and connecting wires that he cut short (removing a plug) and not installing them into a junction box . . .I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Misternatural 0 #45 December 11, 2009 Conduit- As far as I know THHN is the correct wire to use in conduit, not only does the electrician have to consider amperage rating of the wire but also the temperature rating of the wire insulation-and the abrasion resistance while the wire is being pulled through conduit- Wire inside of a conduit has to be rated for higher heat because conduit retains more heat while juice is running through the wires.Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires. D S #3.1415 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #46 December 11, 2009 THHN is one of many conductors that can be pulled through conduit. It is just one of the most common because it is cheaper, pretty tough and rated for up to 90C. Most residential breakers are only rated to 75C, so that becomes the limiting factor. Yes, temperature ratings of the conductor are important, as well as whether the conduit will be in free air or encased/buried. But for the most part, Joe handyman installing something in a house can pretty much buy shit from Home Depot and install it without burning a house down. Except when he f*cks up. You listening Billy? 50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Misternatural 0 #47 December 11, 2009 >Except when he f*cks up. you're bad I'm thinking AFCI 15 amp breaker here just in case Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires. D S #3.1415 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydveraz 0 #48 December 11, 2009 Quote THHN is one of many conductors that can be pulled through conduit. It is just one of the most common because it is cheaper, pretty tough and rated for up to 90C. Most residential breakers are only rated to 75C, so that becomes the limiting factor. Yes, temperature ratings of the conductor are important, as well as whether the conduit will be in free air or encased/buried. But for the most part, Joe handyman installing something in a house can pretty much buy shit from Home Depot and install it without burning a house down. Except when he f*cks up. You listening Billy? That's what aluminun foil and pennies are for!Arizona only has two seasons, Hot and HOTTER! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Misternatural 0 #49 December 11, 2009 >That's what aluminun foil and pennies are for! um yeah on second thought Given Billy's like of flammable bug spray.....add a firematic fuse on the ceiling and Killark explosion proof fittings and fixtures. Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires. D S #3.1415 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #50 December 11, 2009 Romex doesn't have to be in a conduit, right? However, all wire ends were connected with those screw-on gagdets and then pushed into a metal receptacle box. If you guys are saying that the power supply plug-in wires that came with the lights need to be in a conduit (would be really short ones), then yeah, I guess I'll have to do that. I still have to disconnect all the fixtures and put the lights down when I start working on the drywall., then re-connect them through the drywall holes and push them in."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
