mjosparky 3 #51 March 22, 2005 QuoteI don't understand why the whole "floating pud" thing is used as a pull-out con... So what - you have a floating pud, you deploy a reserve. “So what”. Anytime you have to use your reserve you are no longer sport parachuting. You are like the pilot with his plane on fire, you are trying to save you life. It is not something to take lightly, and it sure a hell is not a “So what”. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #52 March 22, 2005 True, but I would guess his point was to indicate that it's a rare malfunction, and something similar can happen if unabble to locate the handle on a throw out system. Reserve use should naeve be quite a "so what" situation though........---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #53 March 23, 2005 QuoteQuoteI was directly quoting Bill Booth, so blame him! Not “blaming” anyone, just stating an opinion. Sorry i didn't mean you to take me literally on the "blame" thing, hence my use of the in that post. Anyway thanks for your and others posts in this topic, it's been very useful to read for me. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #54 March 23, 2005 I jump a BOC and have jumped pullouts in the past. I prefer the boc for the reasons people are all stating on here, but one great advantage of hte pullout is the greatly decreased chance for a premature deployment. To me, thats the biggest reason to use a pullout in the first place. Granted, a person should keep their BOC in good maintenence so that a premaure deployment isn't very likely, but the pullout virually eliminates that. There is no chance of hte pilot chute slipping out prematurely. Really the only way for a premie on a pullout is to knock the closing pin out of the loop. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #55 March 23, 2005 Don't jump to conclusions here, I teach all of my students with a pull-out! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spanky39154 0 #56 March 23, 2005 Ehh!! might be liitle bit off here but hey since when could you NOT get a horseshoe with a pull-out!! I pack pull-outs and BOC at my DZ never jumped one cause i can with my J-No. in UK. both have advantages and disadvantages and its up to each jumper to got and get the facts from those who are really in the know and make there own decisions!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large Groups!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #57 March 23, 2005 I keep hearing about floating puds...if you pud gets knocked loose, reach back to the pin, grab the bridle that is loose, pull to full arm extension and let go, you just deployed your main. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #58 March 23, 2005 QuoteDon't jump to conclusions here, I teach all of my students with a pull-out! You do? I've never heard of that. Ehm, WHY? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #59 March 23, 2005 It is very easy, so why not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #60 March 23, 2005 Quote...if you pud gets knocked loose, reach back to the pin, grab the bridle that is loose, pull to full arm extension and let go, It sounds so easy, but apparently is not, at least judging by the experience of many.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #61 March 24, 2005 QuoteQuote...if you pud gets knocked loose, reach back to the pin, grab the bridle that is loose, pull to full arm extension and let go, It sounds so easy, but apparently is not, at least judging by the experience of many. Quote Sounds easy...and IS...on the ground anyway, I've tried it lots of times ...'just in case' but have never actually had to do it in the air, which as we all know...may be a MUCH different story. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #62 March 24, 2005 Years ago, when safety wasn't so paramount, a guy I jumped with use to pull mine out everytime I climbed out of the cessna. It is not hard at all to reach back and grab it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #63 March 24, 2005 QuoteQuote...if you pud gets knocked loose, reach back to the pin, grab the bridle that is loose, pull to full arm extension and let go, It sounds so easy, but apparently is not, at least judging by the experience of many. I've done this twice and didn't really find it that difficult. Admittedly, I was at altitude at the time (7500'), but even so it only took a second or two. I'd only give it one chance if I was low (less than 3000') and at terminal. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #64 March 24, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote...if you pud gets knocked loose, reach back to the pin, grab the bridle that is loose, pull to full arm extension and let go, It sounds so easy, but apparently is not, at least judging by the experience of many. Quote Sounds easy...and IS...on the ground anyway, I've tried it lots of times ...'just in case' but have never actually had to do it in the air, which as we all know...may be a MUCH different story. Well, I've had about 5 floating handles over the years and none ever took me more than a second to locate and deploy. It's not a big deal.-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #65 March 24, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote...if you pud gets knocked loose, reach back to the pin, grab the bridle that is loose, pull to full arm extension and let go, It sounds so easy, but apparently is not, at least judging by the experience of many. Quote Sounds easy...and IS...on the ground anyway, I've tried it lots of times ...'just in case' but have never actually had to do it in the air, which as we all know...may be a MUCH different story. Well, I've had about 5 floating handles over the years and none ever took me more than a second to locate and deploy. It's not a big deal. Quote That's pretty much what I figured... Mine really can't go far, and the bridle is right there... But like I said..never actually had to do it...YET! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #66 March 24, 2005 Because I have survived 3500 throw out jumps. And I only have about 3 pull out jumps."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnGraham 0 #67 March 24, 2005 QuoteWell, I've had about 5 floating handles over the years and none ever took me more than a second to locate and deploy. It's not a big deal. Just a quick question to you and anyone else who has done this in the air - were you wearing any/thick gloves? If not, how hard would it be to do this with really thick gloves on? Cheers, JG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #68 March 25, 2005 QuoteWell, I've had about 5 floating handles over the years and none ever took me more than a second to locate and deploy. It's not a big deal. I am not denying your experience with floating handles, but from what I have heard over the years from pull-out users, many have not been able to grab a floating handle. I think this is a pretty valid conclusion given what the old guy with the big beard said earlier in this thread, he is well recognized for actually using real data, instead of my limited exposure to the subject: QuoteFrom what I know, you are about 5 times more likely to have a main total if you jump a pull-out. Like many other subjects, the conclusion depends on how each individual thinks the various risk factors will affect them specifically, as opposed to jumpers in general.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #69 March 25, 2005 Using thick gloves like ski gloves is really stupid because the inner layer is able to move relative to the outside, they are too soft, and the fingers are slick. There are gloves that are good for winter that do not suffer from these problems. Wearing latex surgical type gloves under regular leather gloves works very well.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #70 March 25, 2005 QuoteI keep hearing about floating puds...if you pud gets knocked loose, reach back to the pin, grab the bridle that is loose, pull to full arm extension and let go, you just deployed your main. This is a very interesting thread for me since I made the first "Throw out" (it was called hand deploy back then) jump for Bill. As for reaching back and grabbing the bridle to pull the pin with the bridle, I once jumped a test throw out pilot chute that was too small and wound up in tow. I did exactly what you did, reached back and pulled it out. I've never jumped a pull out, but it seems to defeat the very purpose of the throw out in that you can't really extend it all the way to the side. The original hand-deploy pilot chutes had a PVC orange handle at the apex and the bridle was velcroed from the belly band to the side flap of the container where it went under, then a loop of the bridle was used to secure the container (no pins yet). We were already using this closing method with Booth's exterior spring loaded pilot chute, so very little modification was needed for the new system. I usually extended the pilot chute out to my normal falling position, hesitating for just a second so anyone above could see I was about to release. In 700 jumps, zero hesitations, zero out of sequence deployments, etc. I did jump a few pin closed systems too, some with nybril pins, some with steel (even before curved). I really liked the original the best though, seemed like less to go wrong to me. If I return to jumping soon, it will be throw out for me. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #71 March 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteWell, I've had about 5 floating handles over the years and none ever took me more than a second to locate and deploy. It's not a big deal. I am not denying your experience with floating handles, but from what I have heard over the years from pull-out users, many have not been able to grab a floating handle. I think this is a pretty valid conclusion given what the old guy with the big beard said earlier in this thread, he is well recognized for actually using real data, instead of my limited exposure to the subject: QuoteFrom what I know, you are about 5 times more likely to have a main total if you jump a pull-out. Like many other subjects, the conclusion depends on how each individual thinks the various risk factors will affect them specifically, as opposed to jumpers in general. Hmmmm...let's see...our little dz has had 3 or 4 main totals in the last two years...on BOC throw-outs. The first fatality that I was on a dz for (in 1982) couldn't get her throw-out pc out of her belly band. My wife had her one and only reserve ride as a result of not being able to extract her pc from its pouch. A friend of mine from Norway bounced as a result of a misrouted bridle/pc in tow/main/reserve entanglement. Another friend of mine with 3000+ jumps towed a pc to about 700' before opening his reserve. A friend of mine with 10,000+ jumps packed himself a pc in tow by misrouting a bridle. And people worry about a floating handle that won't interfere with a reserve opening...it mystifies me, it really does....especially when the failure modes for a throw-out are way scarier imo.-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueSBDeath 2 #72 March 26, 2005 Bills reply made me think of something............the total (no open main container) is the Safest self induced malfunction to have Another Pud+, you decide!!! Arvel BSBD...........Its all about Respect, USPA#-7062, FB-2197, Outlaw 499 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
divnswoop 0 #73 March 26, 2005 QuoteIt is very easy, so why not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #74 March 26, 2005 >>I keep hearing about floating puds...if you pud gets knocked loose, reach back to the pin, grab the bridle that is loose, pull to full arm extension and let go, you just deployed your main.<< >>Years ago, when safety wasn't so paramount, a guy I jumped with use to pull mine out everytime I climbed out of the cessna. It is not hard at all to reach back and grab it.<< Sorry, but that's dangerous advice. I don't have any problem with pull outs in general, but starting with jennie McCombs back in the day, a list of experienced people who have died chasing a pud until impact would be rather long. I think over a career a pull out system will buy you at least a couple of reserve rides than you might otherwise have. I also don't like the fact that, while rare, you can still have a pilot chute hesitation after a weak pull (who hasn't done that?) and while that's going on your main container is already open. Dip a shoulder to clear the pilot chute and you can have everything spill out at once. This is especially true of rigs like older Racers where an open main container won't necessarily hold the deployment bag in place. All the problems the pull out was intended to cure have been negated by the BOC configuration. NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #75 March 26, 2005 because it's not recommended for wingsuit.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
