Do you(r) AFF instructors talk their own students down on radio?

[fcajump 153]

Note: While written based on student "radio" instructions, the point is more whether the instructor in the air also gives the instructions to the student when under canopy... if you use visual signals rather than radios, please answer whether or not the signaling instructor is the same as the freefall instructor for the particular load.

At the first place I jumped, my recollection is that they always had a dedicated instructor for each load (where students were still on radio) to man the radio. This instructor was not on the same load.

The second DZ I jumped at routinely had one instructor on the plane who had a radio in their jumpsuit, designated to talk down all students on the load (after they themselves hand landed from their jump).

I was never personally comfortable with the second method. Though I can see the advantage if you are short on staff, it seems to me that it could lead to confusion.

Was curious how its done elsewhere.

JW

PS - this was never an issue for me at an instructor... I was always able to talk to them as their ears were never more than 6" from me ... (TI)

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[Ron 7]

1st DZ (SL) had a radioguy on the ground.
2nd (SL/AFF) had a radioguy on the ground.
3rd (AFF) had a radioguy on the ground
4th (AFF) had a single radio on the ground and all Inst landed near it and one talked all of the students down.
5th (AFF) has each I wear a radio synced to the Student.

I prefer the one radio and all the I's landing near it. What happens if the guy synced up lands off?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

The second DZ I jumped at routinely had one instructor on the plane who had a radio in their jumpsuit, designated to talk down all students on the load (after they themselves hand landed from their jump).

That's how we do it.

Quote

I was never personally comfortable with the second method. Though I can see the advantage if you are short on staff, it seems to me that it could lead to confusion.

No shortage on staff. That's what allows 1 radioman per student.
Confusion?

Well, yeah...when the AFFI/radioman doesn't know/remember the student's canopy colors.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[fcajump 153]

Quote

Confusion?

Well, yeah...when the AFFI/radioman doesn't know/remember the student's canopy colors.

The second DZ I mentioned used (basically) matching student gear, had several students on the same load and the radio instructor had to (upon landing) look up and figure out which student was which...

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[spootch 0]

Quote

Quote

Confusion?

Well, yeah...when the AFFI/radioman doesn't know/remember the student's canopy colors.

The second DZ I mentioned used (basically) matching student gear, had several students on the same load and the radio instructor had to (upon landing) look up and figure out which student was which...

JW

Not only that but what happens if the instructor bounces? who lands the student then?

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Quote

Not only that but what happens if the instructor bounces?who lands the student then?

My most recent jump (7weeks ago) was an AFF-I jump where I dislocated my foot due to a stupid landing error. I was in NO condition to be on the radio as I was squirming around on the grass.

That said, I hate the radio. I know that I am alone in that feeling.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

1st DZ (SL) had a radioguy on the ground.
2nd (SL/AFF) had a radioguy on the ground.
3rd (AFF) had a radioguy on the ground
4th (AFF) had a single radio on the ground and all Inst landed near it and one talked all of the students down.
5th (AFF) has each I wear a radio synced to the Student.

I prefer the one radio and all the I's landing near it. What happens if the guy synced up lands off?

Here's where #5 actually works well in practice, in my experience...

Bad spot (rare, but it happens) - and ALL are going to land off. Sync'd radio with the instructors who also just jumped with the student, can still effectively talk that student safely down to them - where they can clearly and safely see them - to them, all the way to the ground and fixed ground radio back at the DZ may not be able to clearly see them. I have seen this work well in practice.

Quote

What happens if the guy synced up lands off?

If both AFFI's have sync'd radio's with them - again, this is extremely rare to happen - but still, logistically is still "covered". One makes it back & the other doesn't? ...When each lands - you look up and locate your student. If it is best the guy who made it back talks them back to the DZ, then that's what you do. Again though - if the student looks short - - - it might be best that the other instructor (presumably also short in this illustration) talks the student to them. Simple enough to quickly and efficiently communicate & decide. Remember - you've each got radio's now WITH YOU, on the same channel.

In response to the poster who was worried about "what if the instructor bounces" - again, still simple enough, even on a single-instructor dive with the student. Remember, these are FRS radio's - just need to have sufficient supply on-hand... Which really is not hard (or overly expensive, really) to do. On the student roster-board, until they have landed and returned ("checked in") their name is still up on the board, along with their load #, assigned instructor(s), AND their set radio freq.! - We use primarily 2, but up to only 4 (as that is the max # of AFF students we will potentially ever have in the air simultaneously - but you can still apply this to whatever # needed, practically) SET FREQUENCIES (options) to choose from. So - even if (god forbid) an instructor went in - or had a mal & landed off - someone on ground crew would simply grab a radio, match it to the freq needed & take over. No problem.

That's how it works at one of the 3 DZ's I routinely instruct at anyway. The other 2 of the 3 uses single-radio (and designated radioperson) on the dz.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[matthewcline 0]

The Student lands them selves, lets not forget the Radio is a BACK-UP!

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[pchapman 262]

Some in Southern Ontario:

DZ #1 dedicated ground radio instructor, out in the field with a radio & backup.

DZ #2 dedicated ground radio instructor at a base station with spare radio, binocs, radio to manifest etc.
But PFF instructors often carry a radio each just in case.

DZ #3 (some years back) One instructor carries a radio, radios from under canopy and then on the ground.

Due to staff, aircraft, or student volumes, a single channel for students is used by all.

[chuckakers 370]

Don't BSR's still require radio for students using ram air canopies until cleared to be on their own?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Gators1240 9]

Quote

The Student lands them selves, lets not forget the Radio is a BACK-UP!

Matt

+1

My AFFI's had a radio and landed and then talked me down. But due to the radios we had there I think 4 or my 7 AFF jumps the radio accidentally got switched off during freefall somehow so I was alone anyways and did fine. Same thing happened a few weeks later to one of the Qatari's that were going through AFF there and he just waited to hear the radio and kept flying straight. Somehow he managed to stay on the airport (barely) but ended in the middle of the runway at the end of it

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I was on an AFF jump this summer that landed out. I landed a little further out than I might have because I took the time to get the radio out to tell the student that they were not going to make it back and to start making alternative plans. If I had just gone into brakes to make it back (or close) I would not have been on the ground until just before my student. Since we teach our students to take care of themselves I was not too concerned. Once on the ground my instructions were mild reminders of basics. He landed in a nice big field.

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Confusion?

Well, yeah...when the AFFI/radioman doesn't know/remember the student's canopy colors.

The second DZ I mentioned used (basically) matching student gear, had several students on the same load and the radio instructor had to (upon landing) look up and figure out which student was which...

JW

Not only that but what happens if the instructor bounces? who lands the student then?

The student then does what he/she was trained to do in the FJC.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Don't BSR's still require radio for students using ram air canopies until cleared to be on their own?

No. There is not a BSR regarding radios on students.

http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section2/tabid/164/Default.aspx#710

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[propacker 0]

but the BSR's do say -

. Manned ground-to-air communications (e.g., radios, panels, smoke, lights) are to be present on the drop zone during skydiving operations.[NW]

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

. Manned ground-to-air communications (e.g., radios, panels, smoke, lights) are to be present on the drop zone during skydiving operations.[NW]

That is referring to communication with the aircraft, not students.

The BSR's do not say anything about radios for students, which is what this thread is about.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[popsjumper 2]

Yes, indeed AndyMan:

Section 2-1 H Drop zone requirements

3. Manned ground-to-air communications (e.g., radios,
panels, smoke, lights) are to be present on the drop
zone during skydiving operations. [NW]




You'd be surprised how many AFFIs think radios are required for students.

So let's just post the BSR as applicable to student gear:

Section 2-1 K Parachute equipment

2. All students are to be equipped with the following
equipment until they have obtained a USPA A license:
a. a rigid helmet (except tandem students) [NW]
b. a piggyback harness and container system that
includes a single-point riser release and a reserve
static line, except: [FB]
-(1) A student who has been cleared for freefall
self-supervision may jump without a reserve
static line upon endorsement from his or her
supervising instructor.
-(2) Such endorsement may be for one jump or a
series of jumps.
c. a visually accessible altimeter [NW]
d. a functional automatic activation device that
meets the manufacturer’s recommended service
schedule [FB]
e. a ram-air main canopy suitable for student use [FB]
f. a steerable reserve canopy appropriate to the
student’s weight [FB]
g. for freefall, a ripcord-activated, spring-loaded,
pilot-chute-equipped main parachute or a bottom

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jimjumper 25]

We use a system in which each Instructor has a radio but the student is taught to go to a designated holding area after opening and a canopy control check. They are instructed to remain in the holding area until 1000' and if they haven't heard any instruction then assume that his radio's have failed and needs to land on their own as taught in the FJC. If the student has actually made it to the holding area it would be difficult for them to land off due to the size of our landing area. Again, all of this is only in the event of radio failure. We also use different colored canopies that allow for individual identification of students plus a written card with each radio with each students name. I would caution against using transmitting radio's while under canopy as it has been known to cause actuation of AAD's.

[Fast 0]

I very much prefer to take the radio with me and radio my own student down. If we have more than one on the plane, someone from the first AFF group carries the radio. We also typically give the radio to the instructor with the highest wingloading, just cause that person is often down first.

It just works better that way, I don't have to worry about if someone on the ground is going to remember/hear the jumpers away call and go do radio. If for some reason, something crazy happens with the wind and we have to land off, I can bring the students to someplace safe that I pick for everyone.

I also am not really worried about talking to them while I'm under canopy. I can be on the ground fast. If the conditions are such that they can get that messed up in the 1-2 minutes it takes me to stow my slider fly to the landing area and hook it, then we shouldn't be taking students anyways.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[fcajump 153]

Related question (to all, not just you)...

If you are out far enough that your student might not make it back, do you pick a field and lead them to an out landing?

(Honestly, I've only seen one instructor do this, and many that did not. And this did not seem to vary whether the radio was with the instructor or not.)

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[Ron 7]

Quote

If you are out far enough that your student might not make it back, do you pick a field and lead them to an out landing?

Yes, in fact I did that just Saturday.

My student (L4) was doing his best under canopy, but had zero chance of making the landing area. I think it had to do with toggle induced bad spotting since he did his canopy requirements (L&R riser turns toggles stowed, L&R riser turns toggles unstowed, and L&R toggle turns) right after opening and then tried to head to the holding area.... One of the issues with the AFFI jumping the radio, I was unable to guide him until I had landed.

Anyway, he clearly was not going to clear the tarmac with the aircraft tie downs... so I directed him to an open field. Even though I ran towards him, I was blocked by a big fence and I had to do my best to guide him into the field.

I told him to line up with a clear runway (don't aim at an obstacle) then had him go into half brakes to ensure he would not overshoot the area. I then put him into full flight at about 150 feet and tried to help time the flair.

But it is difficult at that kind of distance.

He landed fine.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pilotdave 0]

Our DZ has very few outs on one side. Luckily the spots are nearly always on the other side. But on days with strong upper winds, students can really screw themselves by flying past the airport (or failing to hold into the wind) if the spot isn't really far out. Those first couple minutes are often very important for getting them steered in the right direction. We basically always have someone on the ground doing radio. Basically if nobody is available on the ground, students don't jump. Only exceptions are made for more advanced students (all students are required to at least wear a radio until they have an A-license at my DZ)... the radio will usually be held by a non-instructor and handed to them when they land. But that's pretty much only done on occasional weekdays.

So here's another question. As far as I know, USPA is silent on who is allowed to talk students in. What's your DZ's policy? Instructors only, coaches, anybody?

Dave

[fcajump 153]

Quote

Quote

If you are out far enough that your student might not make it back, do you pick a field and lead them to an out landing?

Yes, in fact I did that just Saturday.

My student (L4) was doing his best under canopy, but had zero chance of making the landing area. I think it had to do with toggle induced bad spotting since he did his canopy requirements (L&R riser turns toggles stowed, L&R riser turns toggles unstowed, and L&R toggle turns) right after opening and then tried to head to the holding area.... One of the issues with the AFFI jumping the radio, I was unable to guide him until I had landed.

Anyway, he clearly was not going to clear the tarmac with the aircraft tie downs... so I directed him to an open field. Even though I ran towards him, I was blocked by a big fence and I had to do my best to guide him into the field.

I told him to line up with a clear runway (don't aim at an obstacle) then had him go into half brakes to ensure he would not overshoot the area. I then put him into full flight at about 150 feet and tried to help time the flair.

But it is difficult at that kind of distance.

He landed fine.

In the example cases I've seen (both using base-station radios):
- (AFF7'ish) my instructor, upon seeing we were out, circled in front of me and lead me to a good out landing field.
- (AFF7) my (now) wife's instructor, upon seeing we were out, beat feet for home under their fast canopies. Left her to fend for herself for her first out landing under a DC-5. I was flying a PD-260 above and circled down in front of her (at safe distance) and lead her to a good out landing field.*

I my case, my instructor did a good job of communicating "follow-me" without the radio. In her case... well, a hand-held would only help if they stayed around to watch...

JW

*Both were at the same DZ, cut out of the woods, where you were either IN, or OUT. Nothing good in between...

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...