World Trade Center attacked

[JDBoston 0]

A couple points.
One: my grandfather actually worked on the A-bomb and I do not hold the individual soldiers and people who were part of the war effort responsible for the orders they were following.
Two: Japan attacked primarily soldiers at Pearl Harbor, not civilians as we attacked in Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki.
Three: You say you have no animosity towards the Japanese yet the women and children in those cities "deserved" to get burned alive for decisions made by their leaders. Interesting logic.
Four: Most people are sheep and have the unfortunate potential to do despicable things given the right leaders and situation. Witness the many Germans who went along with the Nazi party, or neo-Nazis in many countries nowadays, or any number of groups. Does it make more sense to kill all the sheep, or look for the shepherd? I absolutely agree with you that we need to find the people who did this and the people who helped them. But we do not need to slaughter people who weren't involved.
The point of my email is that war is a very ugly business and we in the US do not hold any kind of moral high ground that allows us to go out and commit acts that we deem terrorism or war crimes if we find ourselves on the receiving end. That is what I think people easily lose sight of.
Joe

[dkearns 0]

OK I agree lets do nothing that way no body gets hurt.

[wildblue 4]

Hang on... let me get out the sarcasm meter and see if this registers....

Quote

OK I agree lets do nothing that way no body gets hurt.

woah... off the scale...
Then, I saw these two guys swoopin across the pond, and I was like 'weeeeeee!!!!'

[dkearns 0]

sarcasm what sarcasm

[billvon 2,404]

>Don't you dare critisize the US for what happened to Japan during WWII.
The facts are that we killed 350,000 people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki - civilian men, women and children - and most of them died of thermal and radiation burns, one of the less pleasant ways to die. We have no moral high ground.
>Alot of the people posting on this thread seem to think that there are just a few
>people out there that perpetrate this kind of violence when in fact there are entire
> countries and governments that help and applaud these kinds of actions.
You could use that logic to condemn the US for supporting, arming and applauding an entire nation - Israel - that has been perpetrating just this kind of violence against Palestinians. Just because we think they're 'right' does not make us any more innocent.
>We have to find the animals and all who helped them and snuff them out. If we
> don't, the next group is going to try something larger.
I agree. However, it's important to do it in that order - first find them, make sure we're right about it, and then destroy them.
>We went to war against Japan for the same kind of attack as this and I think
>it will work out the same way as before, with our boot on there neck.
There's a bit of a difference in going to war against a country and against a terrorist who is on the move. It would be embarrassing to kill two million people and flatten entire cities, only to have Bin Laden organize the next US attack from the Ukraine.
-bill von

[JDBoston 0]

Let me see if I can make it a little clearer: there are 3 options. 1) do nothing, 2) bomb the shit out of non-civilian targets, or use other methods to find the right people to hit, 3) fuck it, bomb everybody. Option #2 is the one I think makes the most sense. Is that better?
Joe

[SpeedRacer 1]

I think I see your points, JDBoston, and I've heard others make similar points on the web & on the radio. But when someone says we should not go to war against another country over this, and then leaves it at that, it sounds (to SOME people) as though you're saying we should just sit & do nothing because, oh dear, our country did something bad in the past & therefore we had it coming. Now I'm sure you didn't mean that, but it would have helped if you had also proposed something we could do about this attack in lieu of an attack on an entire country.
UN representatives have pointed out that in the old days it was simpler to just go to war against another country, but now, you have small isolated groups of wacko terrorists with no regard for human life, including their own.
It's clear that we need a new approach to deal with this menace. More & more evidence is piling up that bin Laden was behind this. If we respond by just carpet-bombing Afghanistan, we'll just create more crazy terrorist martyrs in the future from the survivors. Instead, we should establish a new order of international law. Put together all the evidence, and if (as appears to be the case) the evidence points to Osama ben Laden, we get together with the other countries of the UN (very important step) and we all head over to Afghanistan's door & knock & say, we have a warrant for the arrest of bin Laden & his associates.
They'll probably say "Uh, gee, we don't know where he is...." If they do, we say: "well, you don't mind if we the international community come in and have a look around?? "
And we basically give them 3 choices: Surrender bin laden, or let us temporarily take over your country peacefully so we can get him ourselves, or let us take over your country BY FORCE so we can get him ourselves.
See, the emphasis here is on nailing the terrorists themselves by the most direct means necessary, not on just starting out by carpeting Afghanistan with bombs.
Speed Racer
"Come up to my lab,
And see what's on the slab!"

[JDBoston 0]

Good point SpeedRacer. I can see how it would have been possible to interpret my post that way. My feeling is that no country ever "has it coming" when you talk about something like this - not us, not Japan, and not any Arab countries, even now. Acts like this are horrible and wrong no matter who commits them and for what reason. They should not be answered with the same kind of acts, but maybe with something like what you described, or in any case a more targeted approach.
It's just hard for me to sit and listen to all the "bomb 'em all" shit. People need to stop and think about what they are advocating we do in other places, and realize that it looks an awful lot like what just happened in New York. Clearly we do not live in a fantasy world and we do have to make hard decisions about how to respond and take hard actions when we do. But we do not need to root for a war like it's a football game.
Joe

[billvon 2,404]

>Let me see if I can make it a little clearer: there are 3 options. 1) do nothing, 2)
>bomb the shit out of non-civilian targets, or use other methods to find the right
>people to hit, 3) fuck it, bomb everybody. Option #2 is the one I think makes the
>most sense. Is that better?
There are people who think that there are other solutions besides inaction and massive bombing. The best possible result would be to find those who did this and put them on trial in the US - even if it's a thousand people. No bombs, but a much better example to the rest of the world that you can't indiscriminately kill people and get away with it.
If, on the other hand, we respond by indiscriminately killing people, our point suddenly gets a lot less clear, because our point is that you _can_ indiscriminately kill people as long as you have a good reason. Believe me, there are plenty of people out there that think they have a good reason.
-bill von

[JDBoston 0]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Bill. There are a lot of people on both sides who think they have a reason. Incidentally, I wasn't talking about simply bombing all non-civilians, but finding specifically those people (to the extent that it's possible) who were responsible for/connected with this attack.
A trial is certainly a very morally appealing idea, but I would be pretty concerned about the things sympathizers might try to get us to release some of the defendants... it's tough to even bring morality into this discussion, so from a purely practical standpoint, I think that executing the leaders of an organization (in a non-indiscriminate way) is a pretty good way to diminish its staying power. It also might make future leaders think twice before ordering people off to do their dirty work for them.
Joe

[chickenhawk420 0]

I was not on no hippy peace to all mankind niavity, of course your gonna listen to your gut instinct and want to strike out and hurt those that hurt you but blaming and labling entire countries as the agressor is bullshit. The ones to blame are governments and the minority that do this shit and support it when it is done. But if you think you can go out and exterminate them all and wow theres the problem gone your mistaken. When Clinton retaliated in bombing sudan he managed to destroy innocent (and i always use that lightly) factory including god knows how many workers. These terrorists are after getting on the world stage - how often do you hear about the middle east when something like this happens. And remember that there are many sides to a story (no state is innocent)and us in the west are probably not getting their full story as are them in their countries not getting our full story. Nothing can excuse them, yes find and punish those reponsible and beat down on countries that condone their actions but one day we will have to talk, and violence will only make greivences on both sides stronger. I hope people arn't taking this the wrong way, im british and ill stand shoulder to shoulder with my american friends because it was an attack on all our ways of life.

[SpeedRacer 1]

If bin Laden is found to be responsible for this, a lot of people are saying he should be executed.
I disagree.
If he is executed, other wackos out there will idolize him as a martyr. We don't want to give him that "honor". And we don't want other potential terrorists to be dreaming of some glorious martyr's death as a result of terrorist acts.
Instead what we should do is keep him in prison for the rest of his life. Then we go to an American maximum security prison & we get some six-foot-six, 300 pound convict named "Bubba." We give Bubba an economy-sized jar of Vaseline & let him share a cell with bin Laden.
I can leave the rest to your imagination. But you can be sure it will lend a very different image to this whole terrorist thing.Speed Racer
"Come up to my lab,
And see what's on the slab!"

[mountainman 0]

I agree with you, SR. Also, they should make some video of it and send it to his bastard friends/people whereever he came from so they can see how well he has adjusted to his "new home". --------------
Boogie pics coming!!!

[SpeedRacer 1]

Osama ben Laden...a new flavor of Popsickle...
Hey this must be a first!
For once we have a thread with someone taking it up the ass besides Skreamer or Pyke!!
Speed Racer
"Come up to my lab,
And see what's on the slab!"

[ERICCONNELLY 0]

I work hard at not being racist. ( I say that because it is human nature to distrust those who are not like us)
However in this case it seems that we do have some very messy work to be done.
If Bin L. is responsible (very likely) he need to be killed. Period.
To hell with pissing anybody off. They already don't like us and this will make no difference.
Anyone that stands between US and Bin L should also be taken out.
The Taliban has proven that it is a extremist regime capable of causing trouble on the world stage. Take them out too.
Yes this will piss off some extremists. So be it. Refer to the statement above, they are already pissed.
We send a message to all that we will not stand by and let ourselves be threatened and just do nothing. When you are dealing with extremists you must use extreme actions.
My $0.02

[jfields 0]

Quote

We give Bubba an economy-sized jar of Vaseline & let him share a cell with bin Laden.

Bubba doesn't need any vaseline, and whoever (bin Laden?) did this doesn't deserve it.
Justin
My Homepage

[mountainman 0]

Quote

Osama ben Laden...a new flavor of Popsickle...

You can trust that this flavor would be pretty bitter. "The only popsickle that sucks!"
--------------
Boogie pics coming!!!

[SpeedRacer 1]

<> HEEYY, BOY, lemme stick MY Jumbo Jet in your Pentagon!!
err EEE! err EEEE! er EEEE! er EEEE! er EEEE! er EEEE!
Speed Racer
"Come up to my lab,
And see what's on the slab!"

[skreamer 1]

Quote

For once we have a thread with someone taking it up the ass besides Skreamer or Pyke!!

Gets my vote!!! Something I find ironic is that Bin Laden (if it is him responsible) was trained by the CIA while involved in the Afghan struggle against the Russians. I agree with billvon and JDBoston on the whole, however I do feel that direct military action is called for, ONLY when we are sure who is responsible and what their location is. Look at the fiasco of the Lockerbie trial... It took so long to get just two people into court and now that case is running into trouble.
Why afford them a democratic right to trial? What have they done to deserve it? This will only be seen as another western weakness.
Will
PS if it wasn't for the oil, the middle eastern conflicts would probably have been ignored like the turmoil in Africa is. Could you really see an Operation Desert Storm happening if (for argument's sake) Iraq and Kuwait had been two oil-less African countries? Remember Rwanda? No western country sent in a task force to stop the genocide. But when there's oil involved and the price of gasoline might go up.... The revenues from oil (Bin Laden's family construction business was built around this) have indirectly/directly funded countries like Iraq and murdering bastards like Bin Laden. Money and fundamentalist religious nut-cases are a dangerous mixture.
(sorry, that got a bit long)

[harro 0]

My profound sympathy for all people involed in the attack on humanity yesturday.
Anger was my first emotion, how can someone call themselves human after attacking so many inocents.
I hope is that my freinds who are in the states at the moment are not involved. Two of the flights were connection flights too Quantas flights to Australia.
These people by doing this totally gutless act have now distanced themselves from the human race!
There day of judgement will come.
My prayers are with all of the people involved
Freemind, freesky, freebeer, freefly, freesex

[Slowfaller 0]

I just thought this would lift some spirits.
> >This is from a Canadian newspaper and is worth sharing.......
> >
> >America: The Good Neighbor.
> >
> >Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
> remarkable
> >editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
> >commentator. What follows is the full text of his broadcast.
> >
> >"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
> >generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
> >
> >Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted
> out of
> >the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
> >forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
> >even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
> >
> >When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
> >propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
> >streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
> >
> >When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that
> hurries in
> >to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
> >Nobody helped.
> >
> >The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
> >discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
> >the decadent, warmongering Americans.
> >
> >I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
> >erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
> >country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
> >Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why
> >do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
> >
> >Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
> >moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
> >about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.
> >
> >You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not
> >once, but several times - and safely home again.
> >
> >You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
> >window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
> >and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they
> are
> >breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home
> >to spend here. When the railways of France,* Germany and India were
> breaking
> >down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
> >Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned
> >them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
> >
> >I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
> >people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to
> >the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during
> >the San Francisco earthquake.
> >
> >Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired
> >of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
> >their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at
> >the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is
> >not one of those."
> >
> >Stand proud, America!
> >
> >This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the
> >United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the
> >rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything,
> and
> >never even get a thank you for the things we do.
> >
> >I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you can
> >and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends until
> >this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a single American
> >that has read this, I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.
> >
> >Stand proud, America
-James Perales
CHris
" You're having the time of my life, and I think you've got it right" Jets to Brazil

[nimbus 0]

Skreamer,
I'm glad someone has pointed out the irony of America's (the government's) support of Afghani anti-Soviet fighters leading to the Taliban's rule in Afghanistan, and the CIA's connection with Bin Laden. I would even say it was a hypocrisy that the U.S. government - especially those in command of the military and secret service - often participates in. US govt. supported or aided one side or other in several African conflicts (Eritrea, Somalia) backing the non-socialist side, often to the detriment of hundreds of people in villages and the countryside.
My own government here will not say "sorry" to the indigenous (Aboriginal) people for past injustices, including the forced separation of children from parents. The early colonists basically exterminated the Tasmanian Aboriginal people. The government (Liberal = conservative) here, supported by the Labor (= left of centre) party is turning away hundreds of refugees (they call them illegal immigrants) who are seeking to escape Afghanistan and Iraq. Both countries we denounce but we fail to assist those seeking in desperation to leave.
The actions of governments are often driven by ideology, although they will not call it that, and by economic concerns (ie., the oil issue Skreamer referred to).
That the people who planned, perpetrated and condoned the terrorist attacks in America should be brought to justice is undeniable. That more innocent people should die is insupportable. Whether Muslim or not, even the celebrating Palestinians (most of whom seemed to be children, and considering the number of people who live there those celebrating were probably a minority), all lives are precious.
Sometimes it is necessary to fight back, to fight against, to fight for something. That's just sad, it's not something we should feel proud of.
I hope this situation is resolved in the quickest way with the least harm done. I hope it doesn't escalate out of control.
Larissa
Just some words from two largely anti-war writers
“But the light men love, who shines
through the pale wings of morning,
balestar on this earth now,
watched the collapse of tall towers: Dawn”
- Euripides ‘The Trojan Women’
‘Will it be so again?’
- Cecil Day Lewis
Will it be so again
That the brave, the gifted are lost from view,
And empty, scheming men
Are left in peace their lunatic age to renew?
Will it be so again?
Must it be always so
That the best are chosen to fall and sleep
Like seeds, and we too slow
In claiming the earth they quicken, and the old usurpers reap
What they could not sow?
Will it be so again –
The jungle code and the hypocrite gesture?
A poppy wreath for the slain
And a cut-throat world for the living? that stale imposture
Played on us once again?
Will it be as before –
Peace, with no heart or mind to ensue it,
Guttering down to war
Like a libertine to his grave? We should not be surprised:
We knew it
Happen before.
Shall it be so again?
Call not upon the glorious dead
To be your witnesses then.
The living alone can nail to their promise the ones who said
It shall not be so again.

[keefusa 0]

"PS if it wasn't for the oil, the middle eastern conflicts would probably have been ignored like the turmoil in Africa is. "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oil wasn't involved in Korea or Vietnam or Croatia or Bosnia or....

[freeflir29 0]

I hate to burst all your bubbles but let me shed some reality on the subject. It seems so easy for people to say "Bring those that did this to justice." Those that did this are dead. They have achieved glory in the eyes of their cause. We are not fighting specific people. We are fighting an ideaology. A culture that is sworn to exterminating ours. Martyrdom is glory. When one achieves this goal it only inspires others. Thus it's not about specific people. It's about squashing an ideaology. In order to rid the world of this threat you must wipe out all that believe in this. That's a lot of blood on a lot of people's hands. I personally don't think that the West has the stomach to do this. I pray that we as a nation will see the light. I'm not really hopeful on it but I pray.
I will refer you to the war in Vietnam. The American leadership was sure that if we caused a high enough casualty rate on the North Vietnamese they would lose their will to fight. They had no idea of the resolve that these people held. I think we are in the same postion now.
"We must kill them. We must exterminate them. Pig by Pig, Cow by Cow" -Apocolypse Now
Clay

[SpeedRacer 1]

Sorry freeflir, but I don't think that's realistic. If you bomb the shit out of an entire country, you make even MORE martyrs! And please don't respond with "Well, just make sure there are no survivors." Never mind the moral implications of that, just think of practical reality. There's no WAY you can just wipe out every single person in a given country and every single ally in other countries. Wiping them all out sounds like a tidy solution, but it simply can't be done. And if you tried to do it, from the ashes you will get even more anti-American fanatics! They can point at the wide scale destruction and you'll get even more terrorist groups rising up!
The only solution is to change the entire rules of how to deal with terrorist groups. We're living in a different world now, and we need different solutions, because we're no longer fighting entire countries straight out. We're fighting small terrorist organizations. We need to defeat them on a military front, and we also need to defeat them on a moral front, by making them look like the shit they are, so that they won't inspire more groups.
That was one of the failures of the US in Viet Nam: we tried to defeat the VC using just bullets and bombs. The problem was we didn't have anything going on on the moral front to win over the will of the Vietnamese people as a whole. The only alternative government to the communists in the North was the Republic of South Viet Nam, run by the Diem regime, which was, lets face it, a corrupt & worthless government, that the Vietnamese people could never really get behind. And THAT is why we lost.
We gotta learn from history here. Vietnam vets often say, "We won the battles, but we lost the war." Without the moral support of the Vietnamese people, we couldn't win that war no matter HOW many bombs we dropped!!
If we're going to stop these terrorist groups from targetting the USA all the time, we need to cut out the "moral" support they receive from certain peoples in the Middle East. And you don't do that by bombing indiscriminately.<>
Personally, I still think we need to disabuse these fanatics of this whole glorious martyr thing entirely. I like mountainman's suggestion of sending out a video to the Middle East of ben Laden taking it up the ass.Speed Racer
"Come up to my lab,
And see what's on the slab!"