Skydiving: More Regulation vs. Less Regulation

[bertusgeert 1]

[If this needs to be moved, feel free to move it, thanks.]

Here's something to discuss & debate.

Americans, especially, love their "freedom". They are some of the biggest "free market" proponents. Recent times however, have shown the dangers inherent in a free market. Boiled down and simplified, the populace want their cake and to eat it too - free markets and the prosperity resulting from lack of impeding regulations, and no consequences like recessions and depressions. I can't blame them, economists over the last 100 years have done a fantastic job of understanding how to manage a low inflation, yet productive economy - it's not an unreasonable expectation. In financial markets, we are now at a regulatory flex-point; there will be much more regulation. In my opinion, it's good - but only if the regulation is designed correctly - otherwise it does more harm than good.

I say all this, because we have quite the set of self-imposed regulations in skydiving (and BASE) as well. Just like the markets, this is in the interest of the best outcome: avoiding bad consequences due to a lack of regulation while having as much fun as possible.

Compare today with 50 years ago. I remember meeting and talking to one of the first recreational skydivers, who at 25 jumps, was considered an "expert in the field" back in the day. There were no regulations preventing camera jumps... in fact I remember a story of him jumping with a huge heavy camera that had it's own parachute, somewhere around 30 jumps. Today, you need 200 jumps just to begin camera jumping.

Is it our job to stop Darwin's Theory? Should we, every time someone does something stupid, place a rule against it? Too many rules certainly limits the amount of fun you can have, and the amount of money you have to spend to get to a level where you can enjoy the "right" to do x,y,z fun activity. Night Jumps. Base jumping. Exhibition jumps. Camera Jumping. Wing-suits.

In America, we love our freedom. Are we self-imposing too much regulation? Do we need more? Or is the USPA doing a perfect job?

One last thing....keep it civil.

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[AggieDave 6]

The modern BSRs are written in the blood of the jumpers that came before us.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Squeak 17]

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The modern BSRs are written in the blood of the jumpers that came before us.

How "modern" are your BSRs?
I know our "Op Regs" were written in a time where canopies were large and docile by todays standard. and many of the regs seem out dated.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[LongWayToFall 0]

I have a hard time viewing the BSRs as "regulation".

[AggieDave 6]

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Quote

The modern BSRs are written in the blood of the jumpers that came before us.

How "modern" are your BSRs?
I know our "Op Regs" were written in a time where canopies were large and docile by todays standard. and many of the regs seem out dated.

More modern than what the OP was referencing. The blood of our friends are writing the current updates as we speak!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[popsjumper 2]

How do you "regulate" stupidity?
Therein lies the problem.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[bertusgeert 1]

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How do you "regulate" stupidity?
Therein lies the problem.

Well said.

Dave, not to take your statements lightly, it makes a very good noteworthy point - but if I invested my life savings with Madoff, and lost it all, because there was no invasive regulation to stop it, should we add or adjust regulation to stop "sophisticated $200MM+ net worth individuals" from blowing themselves up?

If someone goes jumping with a handheld wind-up one-use plastic camera at jump 50, should we tell them NO, because it's 200 jumps for camera jumps now because other people got distracted? Should other people's mistakes now stop me from doing something that doesn't involve a lot of (inherent) risk at all?

It's easier to make the SIM thicker and thicker every year, than to make it better.

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[jonstark 8]

"Regulation" can come from two places.
We can show adherence to the USPA BSRs to clean up our act and have it our way. -or- We can have our sport regulated by statute as an expanded part of the Federal Code of Regulations in the form of a legally binding FAR.

If we let the feds put their nose under the tent we are never going to be happy. Can you imagine FAR part 105 mandating student progression, giving a table of wing loading allowed per number of jumps or giving a maximum allowable wind speed for jumping? They could do it and they could shut anyone down by showing up on the field and asking for documentation. Ever been "ramp checked" by the FAA? It ain't easy for pilots who expect it at any airport while flying. Want them breathing down YOUR neck? Not me!

I think the change in self regulation needed to eliminate needless deaths and injuries will have to boil up from within. This safety culture will have to come from the DZ Operators, DZ Owners, S&TA, you and me. The USPA can offer guidance in several forms such as BSR or group membership rules but it's gonna take us, down at the grass roots level, to change things.

jon

[SivaGanesha 2]

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I say all this, because we have quite the set of self-imposed regulations in skydiving (and BASE) as well.

I have no really strong opinion--however the way your poll is organized it makes it sound like USPA is the only possible source of self-imposed regulations.

In fact, it seems to me that individual DZ's have a role to play in self-regulation. They are much closer to the situation and are in a much better position to determine if something unsafe is going on that needs to be regulated.

I'm not offering an opinion either way as to whether either USPA or the individual DZ's are doing a great job--my only comment is that the individual DZ's definitely have an important role to play in regulating the sport.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[1888 0]

Quote

[If this needs to be moved, feel free to move it, thanks.]

Here's something to discuss & debate.

Americans, especially, love their "freedom". They are some of the biggest "free market" proponents. Recent times however, have shown the dangers inherent in a free market. Boiled down and simplified, the populace want their cake and to eat it too - free markets and the prosperity resulting from lack of impeding regulations, and no consequences like recessions and depressions. I can't blame them, economists over the last 100 years have done a fantastic job of understanding how to manage a low inflation, yet productive economy - it's not an unreasonable expectation. In financial markets, we are now at a regulatory flex-point; there will be much more regulation. In my opinion, it's good - but only if the regulation is designed correctly - otherwise it does more harm than good.

I say all this, because we have quite the set of self-imposed regulations in skydiving (and BASE) as well. Just like the markets, this is in the interest of the best outcome: avoiding bad consequences due to a lack of regulation while having as much fun as possible.

Compare today with 50 years ago. I remember meeting and talking to one of the first recreational skydivers, who at 25 jumps, was considered an "expert in the field" back in the day. There were no regulations preventing camera jumps... in fact I remember a story of him jumping with a huge heavy camera that had it's own parachute, somewhere around 30 jumps. Today, you need 200 jumps just to begin camera jumping.

Is it our job to stop Darwin's Theory? Should we, every time someone does something stupid, place a rule against it? Too many rules certainly limits the amount of fun you can have, and the amount of money you have to spend to get to a level where you can enjoy the "right" to do x,y,z fun activity. Night Jumps. Base jumping. Exhibition jumps. Camera Jumping. Wing-suits.

In America, we love our freedom. Are we self-imposing too much regulation? Do we need more? Or is the USPA doing a perfect job?

One last thing....keep it civil.

[nigel99 144]

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How do you "regulate" stupidity?
Therein lies the problem.

Unfortunately you attempt to regulate it through the use of generic benchmarks and licenses that are required. Hopefully regulation suppresses the stupidity until such a time that experience takes over.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[JohnMitchell 14]

We ain't doing to great right now. I don't see how less regulation will help. As the sport advances, the rules need to keep up with it.

[FreeFallFiend 0]

"Liberty, or freedom, signifieth properly the absense of opposition (by opposition, I mean external impediments of motion); and may be applied no less to irrational and inanimate creatures than to rational.... And according to this proper and generally received meaning of the word, a freeman is he that, in those things which by his strength and wit he is able to do, is not hindered to do what he has a will to do." - Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

Skydiving may seem like freedom, but as long as we have a Sovereignty governing the sky we are simply paying their price to use their playground on their terms.

Most people are familiar with the quote "The greatest trick the Devil ever played was convincing the world he didnt exist."

The greatest trick sovereignty's play is convincing their subjects they are free.

Fiend

I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes.

[bertusgeert 1]

An interesting viewpoint, but I don't agree. Government and regulations is an invention of the people for the people.

Making sure everyone drives on the same side of the road isn't limiting freedom - it's preventing serious consequences & deaths. There are also other regulations that do the opposite - inhibit freedom without benefit to the governed.

Preventing someone from using a camera to snap a picture limits freedom with some, but marginal safety increase. Setting up traffic rules for approach & landing is a definite need and I will gladly obey whatever regulation is best.

Unrelated - I'm curious as to just how and why the FAA has kept it's eyes, hands & powers out of this sport...

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[LongWayToFall 0]

I don't think they want to. It would require a ton of effort to understand and implement decent rules, and so far the USPA can take charge of that end of things by revoking licenses of people who constantly don't obey the rules. What a day it will be when FAA people have to hang out at the DZ and hand out tickets to people for busting minor details.

Another point, is that airplanes are capable of killing "innocent" occupants and people on the ground, while skydivers are only really able to kill themselves (or maybe other skydivers). This is the same reason, in my eyes, why the FAA doesn't really regulate, at least in much detail, ultralights, hang gliders, etc etc.

[billvon 2,407]

In _general_ we don't need more regulation. However, as the sport evolves, we do need to revisit some rules on occasion. The recent widespread availability of small format cameras is a good example of a change that might require us to change some regulation; it is a factor that was not there when people started jumping cameras. Likewise, the increase in canopy collisions due to faster canopies is a relatively new phenomenon.

USPA isn't doing a perfect job; there are a lot of things we could improve on. But they are much better than most of the alternatives (i.e. no regulation, FAA regulation, PIA regulation of skydivers.)