Low Hook Turns Kill

[venwood 0]

I am new to the sport. I am on the cusp of getting my 20 jumps and my A license. So I am not one to preach about landing procedures. But as a new entree into this exciting sport I am determined to learn as much as I can about the sport. I have read many articles and looked at many websites in an effort to answer my many questions. One of the sites detailed all incident reports. I wanted to know the risks and problems I was facing and hopefully possible solutions or just possible problems to think about with respect to my own skydiving. From those incident reports I noticed that one of the main killers is radical low turns. It seems like that almost 70% of the deaths reported in 2000 were from low altitude turns. How can we stop this trend? It is our responsibilty as skydivers to examine this terrible trend and put forth possible solutions. These are my two possible solutions. One, all skydivers should preach to others that low turns can kill. Secondly, at manifest, along side the other dropzone rules, should be a bold sign in red letters that reads "LOW TURNS KILL"
Safe Landings
Venwood

[Pammi 0]

Venwood, I agree with you that low turns are a large number of our fatalities and injuries. I'm constantly preaching at my husband to *please* not do them, on purpose or accidentally. To not put himself in the position of 'needing' to do them, although, I don't know that there is ever a 'need', unless you are avoiding something worse, in which case I hope you've practiced some flat turns.
My personal theory, and one that I've heard others mention at the DZ, is that the number of people who get hurt or killed seems to increase as experience increases. You stop reading those articles to get better, you start hurrying your packing and trying to get that long swoop. It's when you get too comfortable that errors can start to occur more.
The, of course, can happen to newer divers also, but I am like you, I read everything and am much more conservative/cautious then perhaps someone with 500 jumps.
Anyway, these are all just my opinions and personal goals to not let myself get too comfortable.
Blue skies and safe landings!
Pammi

[miked10270 0]

Hi Venwood,
I'm with Pammi on this, skydiving is a very Darwinian sport (survival of the least stupid). It's not the low hook turns that kill, it's when someone moves beyond their experience and capability that they get hurt or killed.
Currency, frequency & experience are everything in skydiving - the guy with 5,000+ jumps doing 1,000+ a year is going to be able to low hook and loooooooooooong surf his sub 100ft2 elliptical, and look cool & in control while doing it. The weekend/casual jumper with 500 jumps at 50-60 a year is going to kill him (or her) self if they try to emulate the "skygod's" actions.
This isn't about being safe, if we were going to minimise personal risk then we wouldn't be skydiving. It's about keeping calm and making a realistic risk assessment of what you plan to do based on your skill, currency & experience.
Mike D10270.

[Iflyme 0]

I'd be willing to bet that most people who do these low turns are trying to avoid another canopoy at low altitude.

[MarkM 0]

I think half the "turn" fatalities are accidental, flyers trying to avoid something or get back into the wind.
One thing I like to remember is that verticle speed kills, not horizontal.
I can hit the ground with the wind doing 70mph lateral and PLF out of it with just some bruising.
But it's pretty much impossible to take a 20mph verticle hit and bleed that energy off anywhere outside of my body.

[Dutchboy 0]

Quote

I'd be willing to bet that most people who do these low turns are trying to avoid another canopoy at low altitude.

Just based on what I've seen I'd have to disagree. I think most people who do these low turns are trying to impress their friends. Approximately 20% of skydivers are female, yet you almost never see them hooking into the ground. We have lots of ladies at my DZ and I don't think I've ever seen one of them doing a hook turn.

[Dutchboy 0]

Quote

One thing I like to remember is that verticle speed kills, not horizontal.
I can hit the ground with the wind doing 70mph lateral and PLF out of it with just some bruising.
But it's pretty much impossible to take a 20mph verticle hit and bleed that energy off anywhere outside of my body.

You are 100% correct about this. Horizontal speed (momentum) can be rolled out, but vertical speed ends up getting disipated in your body (read turns into injury).

[ramon 0]

People have been hooking low since the 70s. You can hook a paracomander Round (I don't know from experience, my rigging instructor preaches this to me.."Back when we jumped...etc").
Difference is back then bad landings were broken ankles. As canopies become more winglike and less parachute like (glider versus decelerator) piloting skills are challenged more.
Most people at my DZ intentionally hook low for fun. Most of them have 1,000s of jumps and are planning outs and emergency maneuvers during flight. Me and my lower jump buddies 250-500, tend to make mistakes or turn low un-intentionally. My mistake was that I was dead set on turning into the wind instead of landing cross wind away from traffic.
I was lucky (scraped nose, tangled in lines of my Space 150 loaded at 1.55, scolding form everyone at DZ and hurt pride).
Now I always plan multiple landing routes and plan outs for any approach incase of a sudden cut off.
Getting hurt because you turned low intentionally is embarrassing and dangerous, but at least it was sort of planned.
Getting hurt because of a un-intentional low turn (unseen jumper cuts you off etc) can be unpredictable and fatal.
Practice Braked turns.
See the high performance canopy handling manual at
http://www.apf.asn.au/pubs.htm
it has good advice and habits for safe and fun canopy flight.
fly free
ramon

[PLFXpert 0]

Quote

One, all skydivers should preach to others that low turns can kill.

I tried this once, for the most part, I got support, but from some, all I got was grief. Good luck.
As for the rest of your post I think it's very observant of you as a newer skydiver to have noticed this and I think it's awesome that you have the desire already to want to try and stop it. We need more skydivers like you and I'm glad you joined our community.
MUCH LOVE AND BLUE SKIES!
Carrie http://www.geocities.com/skydivegrl20/

[PLFXpert 0]

Quote

I'd be willing to bet that most people who do these low turns are trying to avoid another canopoy at low altitude.

Very nice point, FrankMUCH LOVE AND BLUE SKIES!
Carrie http://www.geocities.com/skydivegrl20/

[PLFXpert 0]

Quote

We have lots of ladies at my DZ and I don't think I've ever seen one of them doing a hook turn.

While I think in some cases, you may have a point, there are a few awesome female swoopers that I've seen around the DZ I've been going to since my home DZ closed. I think it's soooo awesome to see girls getting into this but I must add that they all are very experienced skydivers.
MUCH LOVE AND BLUE SKIES!
Carrie http://www.geocities.com/skydivegrl20/

[Aviatrr 0]

Intentional hook turns are a choice to be made by each jumper.. In my opinion, people should not preach to others regarding their choices.. Informing is one thing - but don't preach.. Most jumpers are 100% aware of the risks they are taking when making hook turns..
I don't criticize you for your choice regarding Cypres/RSL(or anything else for that matter), don't criticize my choice to hook turn(which I don't do, by the way).. I would love to see low turn fatalities/injuries eliminated just like everybody else.. If an individual chooses to hook, they are taking the risk.. Lets not try to start imposing all kinds of rules(no hook turns, all jumpers must use a Cypres, no wing loadings over 1.5, etc) that will make this sport less enjoyable..
Everybody has to take responsibility for their own actions - they are the one who will suffer the consequences.
Mike

[skyhawk 2]

i agree with everything but it just affects them. that is wrong if some one goes on it affects the whole of the skydiving comunity it affects there family the name of the sport and any witnesses it can also affect anyone who the colide with. so yes it is there own choice and i aggree we shouldnt ban it totally but there choices do affect others

[Deleted 0]

Low turns do kill (in the extreme). They end up hurting mostly.
A guy at my home DZ is now recovering from a broken back, fused ankle and broken arm because he jumped (obviously added to his problem and judgement) hungover and pulled a low turn.
Shit happens in this sport. He is now going back to a bigger canopy. Smart move.
Let's stick within our abilities guys. Don't get cocky out there. No one want to come to work on monday talking about how they witnessed a death or dismemberment.
KISS - Keep it SAFE Stupid!!
Cheers

[MarkM 0]

Quote

i agree with everything but it just affects them. that is wrong if some one goes on it affects the whole of the skydiving comunity it affects there family the name of the sport and any witnesses it can also affect anyone who the colide with. so yes it is there own choice and i aggree we shouldnt ban it totally but there choices do affect others

The above is an attitude that really annoys the hell out of me.
It cracks me up that people will throw themselves out of airplanes, but then get all upset when another person hooks in a landing.
Yeah, those people really don't need to "push it" and do hook turns.
But then you really don't need to jump out of airplanes in the first place, do you?
Look in the mirror a little before you get all judgemental on people who do hook turns or maybe don't choose to wear an AAD or even an altimeter.

[Deleted 0]

Hook turning is not the devil, true. But hook turning at low altitude could be an unforfivable sin. If u want to hook it low, go for it. The point is from incident reports skydivers are dying from making radical turns close to the ground. I can't speak for others, but when I come in for a landing and I am about 600 feet up I am scanning the landing site looking for the optimal landing, looking at short and long. Then when coming in for landing and I am 100 hundred feet up I am resolute in my choice. If I am going to be short or long I don't care, at that altitude I can't change too much. I definitly can still steer to avoid any obstacles, but I am not doing a 180, I am just going to ride it out. If I have to PLF, so be it, as long as I can make another load in the day or another day I am happy.

[Albatross 0]

Speaking as on of the people who was unfortunate enought to have witnessed this accident I wonder how many of us have actually seen this type of acident. I am an EMT and have had many people dye in my arms, but this incident really shook me up for a while. I love the freedom that I feel when I jump but now I am starting to reconsider. Sure these people have the right to make hook turns and there are going to be some accidents. However, we all need to abide by the rules of our sport and maybe this is one area that needs a few more. Perhaps we should consider retroactive training for canopy control. As someone who has only recently gotten his licence and was afraid that I would have to do all of the new tasks under the new ISP, I am now reconsidering. I am wondering if maybe there should be a licence for this type of hook turn just like there is a rating for landing in an extreemely tight area. Perhaps there should be currency requirement for hook turns. Just thinking that as everyone is saying this is usually an error in judgment or being rusty so why don't we safeguard our passion before the FAA does.

[venwood 0]

Albatros brings up a great point. Maybe we should go through specific, rigorous canopy training to get a specific license. To get an A license you have to go through a specific training program. The focus on that program is altitude awareness, stability, pulling at the correct altitude, and landing safely. After acomplishing that you need to learn to pack your own main and do three relative work jumps with an instructor. All of the above makes sense, but....I have thrown the pc out, beautiful canopy above...what's next? Well, with my AFF training (which was the best)I was told what to do on the landing approach, which is very important. I was also taught basic canopy flying skills. It seems to me that the learning of flying a canopy is being put on the shoulders of the one flying the canopy. He is only learning from experience and what he hears from other skydivers; this equation produces a very slow learning curve. With so many people being hurt or killed under a beautiful, blessed, full canopy, shouldn't we require skydivers to receive basic and advanced canopy control?
This sports does not welcome nicely trial and error.
Safe Landings,
Venwood

[Aviatrr 0]

While I am certainly 100% against instituting any type of 'license' for hook turns, I am in favor of teaching students more about canopy control. From what I understand, the new ISP addresses this. There are also a few places that offer canopy control schools - I believe Perris and DeLand are a couple of 'em.
I believe that everybody should fully explore the flight characteristics of their canopy. Practice braked turns, braked approaches, etc.. On every landing you should have a target(not just "I'll hit the landing area"), and do your best(safely) to land on the target. It's not every time that you can land in or near the peas - especially at the busier DZ's - but pick a target out of the way of the other jumpers.
As far as hook turns...well, I certainly don't advocate them.. If you want to do them, be totally familiar and proficient with your canopy, and consult several experienced canopy pilots and JM/I's for advice.. The S&TA at my old home DZ used to advise people(those who were dead set on doing hook turns) how to make them safer - but certainly did not advocate hook turns..
Mike

[skyhawk 2]

Poster: MarkM
Subject: Re: Low Hook Turns Kill
In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i agree with everything but it just affects them. that is wrong if some one goes on it affects the whole of the skydiving comunity it affects there family the name of the sport and any witnesses it can also affect anyone who the colide with. so yes it is there own choice and i aggree we shouldnt ban it totally but there choices do affect others
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above is an attitude that really annoys the hell out of me.
It cracks me up that people will throw themselves out of airplanes, but then get all upset when another person hooks in a landing.
Yeah, those people really don't need to "push it" and do hook turns.
But then you really don't need to jump out of airplanes in the first place, do you?
Look in the mirror a little before you get all judgemental on people who do hook turns or maybe don't choose to wear an AAD or even an altimeter.

was this aimed at me if it was i was aggreeing that it is there choice and should be their choice the same with cypres what i was arguing with was wether or not it affected others which it does

[Shark 0]

In reply to:
I'd be willing to bet that most people who do these low turns are trying to avoid another canopoy at low altitude.
-----------
If you have other landing area options, like Elsinore. A well planned approach should have avoided this. When I jump with the big dogs on the 10-16 ways, I typically hang out in brakes and let others spiral down into the grass landing area. Only then will I make an approach into the area. (an added plus is that the video dudes will get you on your swoop; provided you have one. )

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

When I jump with the big dogs on the 10-16 ways, I typically hang out in brakes and let others spiral down into the grass landing area.

Keep in mind that hanging in brakes in the pattern can be a dangerous proposition.. I, personally, always maintain full flight in the pattern.. I hate coming up behind somebody that is hanging in brakes in the pattern - they can't see me, so I don't know what they are going to do.. One of those times, I was passing to the right of this guy flying in deep brakes(on a lightly loaded canopy to boot) at about 800ft on a close downwind.. I couldn't go anywhere near as slow as he was.. He decided to make a right 360, and didn't bother checking the area.. I honestly thought we were going to have a canopy collision.. If I had continued to fly straight ahead, his body would have gone through my canopy.. All I could do was dig in on the right front riser and hope for the best..
Oh, and that was my first off field landing, too.. 200ft from the LZ - right in the damn corn! The other jumper was totally oblivious to what happened..
Mike

[Iflyme 0]

Well everyone, we've made it clear again that we share a wide variety of perspectives on this issue, and no one person has the only answer. For what it is worth, here is my view. Hook turns and long swoops look cool. So do cars speeding and fishtailing. But when the person driving "outside" of the "safe" standards society sets for us, they offend others who stay within those safe parameters. So far, no one is to affected though - neither the driver nor the person who sees the car flying around the streets. But when the driver of the car crashes, some one else has to come along and clean up the mess - sometimes body parts. And what about the poor people who just happened to be nearby when the crash happened. They see a stranger seriously injured - or maybe dead. Likely a very traumatizing situation. When the person doing the hook turn messes up and slams into the planet, injuring or killing him/herself, others nearby witness the event, maybe come to that persons aid, and if it is bad, someone (our EMT friends know this feeling) has to clean up what used to be someones friend, lover, parent, whatever - but now they are just a broken corpse. Now it's not just the swooper who is affected - a bunch of other people are now physically and/or mentally affected. For some of us, our lives may change after witnessing the event. So don't tell me to mind my own business - because if I am there, and I have to watch you severely injure or kill yourself, and maybe help pack up your bloodied gear, and give it to your wife/husband, then it is my business. If you've turned when you are low to avoid another canopy, that situation is out of your control, but if you've tried to hook it and fu@#ed up, and really hurt yourself... I'll just stop here...
That is my humble opinion, and I suspect I'll get a blast from some of you - that's ok... go for it...

[AggieDave 6]

I have to agree with Iflyme. I was still on student status when a guy visited my home DZ and hooked in on his first jump there. He wasn't trying to avoid anything, he was trying to swoop and swoop he didn't. Luckly he is still alive (only because one of the other jumpers hanging out that day is a trama docter). It *does* effect you, I still cringe when I hear the sounds of a canopy being hooked/risered in for a swoop. For me, atleast for now, that sound is still accompanied with a very sickening thud and everything that followed. I have also followed up on this guy, and check a website that some of his skydiving friends put up that posts his condition and how he's recovering. I didn't know him, I didn't even really catch his name until after all of this had happened, I had only said howdy to him while passing. Well, the point to this rambling post would be, skydiving or otherwise, everything we do effects other people in one way or another. It can be good or it can be bad, but it still happens.
AggieDave '02
-------------
Blue Skies and Gig'em Ags!
BTHO t.u.

[Shark 0]

Aviatrr,
I guess I should've mentioned that I do this above "pattern" altitude. I know what your saying but I do this to keep the spacing. Also, if you've ever been on a 12 way CReW jump and everyone is going for the grass you will understand what I mean. I'm typically the one with a bigger canopy relative to the others who get down faster. I just help what physics will do for me. If you picture me holding deep brakes the whole way you are completely wrong. Yeah, it's just as dangerous as you mentioned and I've been in a similar situation you described.