Jedi vs. Stiletto

[lifesatrip 0]

I'm in the market for a new rig and I've been jumping a Jedi 120 lately and really like it. At my home dz everyone loves PD and they tell me that the stiletto 120 is a better canopy. I weigh about 135 lbs and have about 600 jumps. The problem is that there are no stiletto 120. Anyone got any opinions.

[AggieDave 6]

Call up PD and get a demo.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[lifesatrip 0]

Demo canopy would be nice but they wont send them to Canada

[Canuck 0]

The demo thing doesn't work up here in Canada. For whatever reason, none of the manufacturers, including PD, have realized that there are a few thousand skydivers up here that would like to try before they buy, and won't send demos up.

There has got to be somebody on your dropzone that owns a Stiletto 120 that you could put some jumps on. Every dropzone has a Stiletto 120 somewhere!!! Especially a PD lovin' dropzone!!

Canuck

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

My experience ..

Jedei :
Longer recovery arc, helps with swooping even at light w/l.
Doesn't land that great straight in

Stiletto :
Better openings
Better with straight-in landings
Short recovery arc !
Lighter riser pressure than the Jedei

Still, If you're going to swoop, I personally like the Jedei for the longer recovery arc. If you plan to fly straight in more often than not, you might want to get the stiletto.

jmo.
Angela.

[Dazzle 0]

Have a hunt around - pd don't know all the demo dealers.

I was trying to get a demo katana and pd only knew of one dealer in the uk with demos and they didn't have the size I wanted. A search around on the net found a dutch dealer who did and was willing to send it to the uk (thanks parachutecase!)

As others have said Stiletto 120s aren't that hard to come across!

[fool 0]

Actually, it's funny, I was the only one there that had one when I went. I'd offer to come down and let you try mine, but it's stuck in Manitoba right now awaiting a repack.

S.E.X. party #1

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride".

[ianmdrennan 2]

Angela,

Either of those 2 canopies can be landed straight in just fine.

Many years ago there was a rumor that certain canopies + canopy sized had to be "hooked in" to land. It isn't true at all.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[towerrat 0]

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Post: Angela,

Either of those 2 canopies can be landed straight in just fine.

Many years ago there was a rumor that certain canopies + canopy sized had to be "hooked in" to land. It isn't true at all.
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although it is true that any canopy can be landed straight in, I find that my Jedi is far easier to land with a little induced speed. Granted, it doesn't have to be hooked, but even a little double front makes my landing less blunt.
Part of this is due to the nature of the canopy, but the largest part is due to my having lengthened my steering lines in order to make front riser turns without pulling the tail.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

• Quote

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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Angela,

Either of those 2 canopies can be landed straight in just fine.

Many years ago there was a rumor that certain canopies + canopy sized had to be "hooked in" to land. It isn't true at all.

Blues,
Ian

This has been my experience with my jedei. I have landed it straight in. It is not nearly as pleasant as landing a stiletto straight in, ime. I was posting my experience. My particular jedei lands great when swooped, but it doesn't do nearly as well when landed straight in.

Angela.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Hi Angela and Towerrat,

I hear what you're saying in that you feel more comfortable with added energy for landing, but the reality is that it shouldn't make a bit of difference (other than initial flare speed) either way.

Think of it this way, lets say your wing has 25 mph full flight forward speed and you can achieve 45 mph with a well performed hook. The only thing that is going to change is the initial speed of the flare getting you to the plane out point (toggle position for that canopy) for that speed. With a higher speed approach your initial part of the flare is slower because of the higher airspeed capable of generating more lift, but once it slows down to the 25 mph the wing has NO IDEA how you arrived at 25 mph, but your flare point, and speed, for that airspeed is going to be the same until your touchdown point.

As I write this I realize it's a difficult thing to say in text, but hopefully you get what I'm driving at.

So, with that in mind, if you cannot land your canopy as softly or nicely with a straight in approach, you (read: Any pilot reading this) need to spend time working on it. It's not the canopy, it's the pilot. It's also something that's worth doing from time to time as you don't always have the option of doing the performance landing.

No canopy, NEEDS to be hooked. It just so happens that we like to do it
Stay safe.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[towerrat 0]

I understand completely the theory behind what you are saying. Regardless, I still really only have enough jumps to know what I feel.
What I feel is hard to express online, but I find the speed really does make my landings more manageable. I've already stated that yes, I can and do land my Jedi straight in, it's just more comfortable with some speed behind it.
I have jumped several other canopies, and never found this to be the case, maybe it's just me.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[RozeAY 0]

I have quite a few jumps on both a Jedei 105 and a Stilleto 107 and 97. Both land fine straight in. I haven't had any problems with the Jedei. I prefer the Jedei because it doesn't have as flat of a glide as the Stiletto does. But both are great canopies.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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With a higher speed approach your initial part of the flare is slower because of the higher airspeed capable of generating more lift, but once it slows down to the 25 mph the wing has NO IDEA how you arrived at 25 mph, but your flare point, and speed, for that airspeed is going to be the same until your touchdown point.

Assuming the angle of attack is identical. Being more assertive with the toggles prior to touch down gets you a higher angle of attack and lower stall speed.

It's possible that what you do differently between straight-in and high-performance approaches is getting you a different stall speed.

[gjhdiver 0]

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I'm in the market for a new rig and I've been jumping a Jedi 120 lately and really like it. At my home dz everyone loves PD and they tell me that the stiletto 120 is a better canopy. I weigh about 135 lbs and have about 600 jumps. The problem is that there are no stiletto 120. Anyone got any opinions.

If you really want to stay with an airlocked canopy, you can still order a PD Vengeance, or go to the source of the Jedei, Brian Germain's Big Air Sports, and get a Samurai.

Personally, I think that the day of the airlocked canopy has come and gone. They are outperformed in the high wing loading stakes by the tri-braced canopies, and out performed in low speed handling by the Stilettos.

I've been jumping a Katana recently. That's a nice compromise between the ellipitcals and the tri braces. Try one of those if you can.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quick question, I assume your profile is incorrect as you say you have 600 but your profile says 350, but more importantly what are you currently jumping and about how many jumps do you do a year?

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[sdctlc 0]

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Personally, I think that the day of the airlocked canopy has come and gone. They are outperformed in the high wing loading stakes by the tri-braced canopies, and out performed in low speed handling by the Stilettos.

I've been jumping a Katana recently. That's a nice compromise between the ellipitcals and the tri braces. Try one of those if you can.

I have to polietly disagree with the assement of the airlocked canopies. If you dont like one or want one that is fine but I do think they still have a place. The Samurai is not a Jedi by any streach and is most assuradly a better performaning canopy then the Stiletto. It is comparable to the Katana. I say that from jumping both and though I do see some differences, these the canopies are in the same class IMHO. Both canopies will fall into a position well above the performance of a Stiletto but w/o some of the good and bad characteristics that have been associated with a X-braced... The X-fire 2 will fall into this category as well, above a stiletto class but below a X-braced class.

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[gjhdiver 0]

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Personally, I think that the day of the airlocked canopy has come and gone. They are outperformed in the high wing loading stakes by the tri-braced canopies, and out performed in low speed handling by the Stilettos.

I've been jumping a Katana recently. That's a nice compromise between the ellipitcals and the tri braces. Try one of those if you can.

I have to polietly disagree with the assement of the airlocked canopies. If you dont like one or want one that is fine but I do think they still have a place. The Samurai is not a Jedi by any streach and is most assuradly a better performaning canopy then the Stiletto. It is comparable to the Katana. I say that from jumping both and though I do see some differences, these the canopies are in the same class IMHO. Both canopies will fall into a position well above the performance of a Stiletto but w/o some of the good and bad characteristics that have been associated with a X-braced... The X-fire 2 will fall into this category as well, above a stiletto class but below a X-braced class.

Scott C.

Er, I think we're actually in agreement if you re-read my post. I think that whatever performance benfits you get from airlocks if offset by bulk issues and the fact that newer designs can deliver very comparable performance. There really isn't the desire for airlocked canopies out there now after the fad of a few years back. They did fill a performance gap in the market for a few years though. PD will still make you a Vengeance, but you don't really see them advertised any more. I would suggest that anyone who really wants an airlocked canopy consider getting one sooner rather than later, before they become unavailable.

[sdctlc 0]

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Er, I think we're actually in agreement if you re-read my post. I think that whatever performance benfits you get from airlocks if offset by bulk issues and the fact that newer designs can deliver very comparable performance. There really isn't the desire for airlocked canopies out there now after the fad of a few years back. They did fill a performance gap in the market for a few years though. PD will still make you a Vengeance, but you don't really see them advertised any more. I would suggest that anyone who really wants an airlocked canopy consider getting one sooner rather than later, before they become unavailable.

Gareth,

I did not think you were saying overly anything bad about an Airlocked canopy but you did seem to imply that they did not perform better then a stiletto class canopy, and that was the real point I was addressing. I just wanted to toss a few cents out there noting the fact that Brians current Samurai design is a high performance canopy that falls into the class above a stiletto but below a X-braced. Also there is a performance increase in slow speed characteristics that can be noticable with the airlocks compared to non-airlocked canopies, specifically the Stiletto that you mentioned to this point.

You make a good point on the bulk issue but a ~5% increase will not really hurt most people and their containers ability to hold the airlocked line of canopies.

Scott C.

As a side I hope your trip to the Herc boogie went well! Looks like, from the very small amount of posts regarding it, the boogie was a great time!

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[mnischalke 0]

Wait a tick,

Lemme get this straight... So, since PD is pushing their marketing efforts toward the Katana and dropping a canopy that developed a mediocre rep at best, airlocks are passe?

I beg to differ. I happen to believe that turbulence and canopy collapses are just as much of a factor now, as they were when Brian Germain brought airlocks to us. I know for fact airlocks work.

While the Vengeance might be riding off into the sunset, PD is still churning out Samurais and LotusMaxes every day, and I hear the wait list for a signature model is quite long. As time goes by I see more and more Big Air canopies out there.

Just a thought, but I have a feeling there wouldn't be an open-nosed non-crossbraced canopy on the market if Brian didn't still hold the patent.

Hope I didn't come off poorly, but I don't think that the Vengeance is a good yardstick for the longevity of airlocks.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[fool 0]

just to add on to your comments too... the airlock isn't about performance, well, not as it's typically thought of... it's about keeping an inflated wing above your head in a bad situation. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that an airlock canopy will out perform another canopy due to the airlocks. that's where planform etc come in.

S.E.X. party #1

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride".

[VectorBoy 0]

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I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that an airlock canopy will out perform another canopy due to the airlocks. that's where planform etc come in.

I have, some people have claimed they believe that this design somehow stiffens their airfoil to a degree. Not quite as much as an x-braced but enough to assist in performance.

[gjhdiver 0]

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Wait a tick,

Lemme get this straight... So, since PD is pushing their marketing efforts toward the Katana and dropping a canopy that developed a mediocre rep at best, airlocks are passe?

Nope, not at all. I'm just saying that they are very much a niche design now. I'm sure that there are people who prefer them to non airlocked variety for their turbulance handling and minimal washout in the landing flare. However, they do kind of fall in that area between the ellipticals and the tri-braced designs, and I suspect that the Katana will be corning that market pretty soon, based on avaliablity and price.

I did a lot of jumps on the test beds for these when Brian was developing the Jedei for Air Time when I was working at Z Hills. Quite a nice parachute really, but with unpredictable behaviour in dynamic stalls, and a rather annoying tendency to stay inflated and buger off over the horizon after a cutaway.

[gjhdiver 0]

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I did not think you were saying overly anything bad about an Airlocked canopy but you did seem to imply that they did not perform better then a stiletto class canopy, and that was the real point I was addressing.

Herc boogie went well! Looks like, from the very small amount of posts regarding it, the boogie was a great time!

I didn't mean to imply that. I think the real differences come out in turbulence and the last part of the landing flare. In flight, I don't see a whole lot of difference between comaparably sized airlocked canopies and ellipticals, but YYMV.

The Hercules boogie was a riot as always. I just submited the article for Skydiving magazine, so hopefully it will be in the next issue.

[ryoder 1,398]

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I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that an airlock canopy will out perform another canopy due to the airlocks. that's where planform etc come in.

I have, some people have claimed they believe that this design somehow stiffens their airfoil to a degree. Not quite as much as an x-braced but enough to assist in performance.

The airlocks transfer some load from the "A" line attachment point to the top of the adjacent unloaded rib. So the net effect is almost as if you have a single cross-brace at the nose.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.