gus 1 #1 May 4, 2004 When repacking my reserve my rigger found the left brake line wrapped around the rest of the rear-left lines: [inline reserve.gif] How serious an error is this? Is it possible for the slider to get trapped? I'm trying to contact the rigger that packed and assembled it originally (not my normal rigger). GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #2 May 4, 2004 I personaly don't think that would cause a total, if you did everything else right. but if you managed to do such an error. i'd be more worried you did a lot of other things wrong too. How on earth can you pack a reserve like that?? i don't dare packing my main like that i don't even think about doing such an error on a reserve. Don't you check everything like 10 times when packing a reserve It's your last chance after all. I still think this error shoulnd't cause a total, but i'm stunned because it's so obvious error. how could you not see that?"George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #3 May 4, 2004 Quotehow could you not see that? He didn't miss it, the rigger that packed it last did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #4 May 4, 2004 I know someone that had something simlar to this happen, on both sides, on a reserve that they jumped!! Thankfully, they were very light under their reserve, and survived a rear riser flare landing into the gravel with no injury...Interestingly, this was also packed by a rigger in England...Needless to say, that was the first and last time she used that rigger! --- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #5 May 4, 2004 ugh sorry gus, i thought you packed it. ok just send my previous post to that rigger that made that mistake "George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #6 May 4, 2004 Is it above or below the ring attached to the riser? If above, It must have been done at the time of assembly, correct?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #7 May 4, 2004 QuoteIs it above or below the ring attached to the riser? If above, It must have been done at the time of assembly, correct? It was above the ring and yes, the only way I can see it happening is during assembly. You'd first have to wrap the brake line around the lines, then pass the brake line through the guide ring and then attach the toggle to the brake line. Quote i'd be more worried [the packer] did a lot of other things wrong too. That's exactly what I thought. It smacks of laziness and inattention to detail. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
payback462 0 #8 May 4, 2004 Quote It was above the ring and yes, the only way I can see it happening is during assembly. You'd first have to wrap the brake line around the lines, then pass the brake line through the guide ring and then attach the toggle to the brake line. its possible to do that with the rig assemled, im not quite awake right now so i cant remember exactly HOW to get it that way, but i know i see it all the time when packing rental and student gear. (i think its just the rig passed inbetween the risers.) on mains i just pop that sides cutaway cable and flip the riser, thats why i cant remember right now without a rig infront of me either way thats rediculous. thats something that just running the lines would have caught. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 198 #9 May 4, 2004 OK...so let's assume for a second that the rigger stepped on his dick on this repack. Is there some board of review or something for riggers? If the rigger did this through inattention he needs to be seriously reprimanded or maybe even have his ticket pulled for awhile.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
payback462 0 #10 May 4, 2004 im not EXACTLY sure how the whole reprimand process works (hmmm think ill ask my local dpre if i see him today!), but basically if you fuck up, at all, you run the risk of the next rigger sending a letter to the FAA and them revoking your riggers ticket. this isnt to say that we arent human and we dont make mistakes, but something as blatantly obvious as this, needs to be thouroughly discussed with the person who did it, after that an appropriate course of action can be taken. i know some riggers are hardasses and wont even say a word to the person who packed it wrong, theyll just send a letter to the FAA, thats just petty and dumb, this sport is all about learning, and we all make mistakes, some of them get noticed before its a problem, some of them kill us, but if we dont talk about them openly, the same mistakes will kill more people, again and again Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #11 May 4, 2004 The best thing to do is to have the rigger that discovered it talk to the rigger that assembled it. And fill out a form off PIA's site. Getting the FAA involved first thing is the wrong thing to do and it pisses more people off then just the rigger's involved. FAA should be the last step. Get this.. there are a lot of riggers that don't know anything about the soft 3 rings in the 80's and don't even look for them on rigs. This is a potentially fatal error, but I've seen a rig go through about 15 repacks before this issue was discoverd. Should every rigger on that list have their ticket pulled instantly or is education a better solution?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 198 #12 May 4, 2004 QuoteShould every rigger on that list have their ticket pulled instantly or is education a better solution? I guess that depends on your POV. I'd venture a guess and say that the rigger beleives education is the way to go...but we're not talking about the stupid kid at McD's who can't get your freakin' order right. We place complete and total faith in our rigger's ability to put a pack job in our container that will deploy correctly and have a greater probablility of opening. I don't know whether that particular error would cause a mal or not...but it's so blatantly obvious its inexcuseable. And, if I'm not mistaken this poor soul walked around for 120 days with it like that. Bottom line...not acceptable and the rigger needs to be reprimanded...officially. I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to let us all have his name here so we can decide whether we feel safe with one of his pack jobs in our container.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #13 May 4, 2004 "The best thing to do is to have the rigger that discovered it talk to the rigger that assembled it." I'd agree with this. As Gus is in the UK, he has further recourse via the BPA riggers committee, chaired by Paul Applegate, or to contact Tony Butler. Me? If it were my rig, I'd be having a chat with the riggers involved and probably leave it at that.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #14 May 4, 2004 its possible to do that with the rig assemled, im not quite awake right now so i cant remember exactly HOW to get it that way, but i know i see it all the time when packing rental and student gear. (i think its just the rig passed inbetween the risers.) on mains i just pop that sides cutaway cable and flip the riser, thats why i cant remember right now without a rig infront of me Sorry but your mistaken. There is no way to get one brake line wrapped around a rear riser group of a reserve without entangleing the other side in exactly the same way. On a main, it's possible because the risers can cut away from the three rings and can be hooked up incorrectly. The mistake made here could not have been made the same way. Reserve risers do not cut a way. This mistake could only have be made while the canopy was being assembled, Or if some one had removed the toggle for some reason such as retying the knot in order to make it a cleaner method of attachment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #15 May 4, 2004 You place complete faith in your rigger to do a proper inspection too but a lot of riggers have'nt got a clue on how old gear really needs inspected either. I asked 3 riggers and all 3 gave me different answers on what is required on a inspection on a round. Even on modern square gear doing things like pull tests seem to be a lost art on most riggers and they don't do them as often as they should. FAA usually does'nt reissue tickets one they pull them. It tends to be a permenant action. Gus, how many repack cycles did that go through since assembly? And with the 180 day repack cycle in Europe there are less chances per year to catch potential issues like this since the gear is being inspected fewer times per year.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #16 May 4, 2004 I'm not interested in screwing the rigger over but I would like him to know what he did - so he can do something to prevent it happening in the future. FYI my rig was bought and packed/assembled in the US but is now in the UK, where my rigger discovered the problem. He was moving my Cypres from my old rig in to my new rig. Between collecting the new rig and leaving it with my rigger I put around a dozen jumps on it. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #17 May 4, 2004 QuoteAnd with the 180 day repack cycle in Europe there are less chances per year to catch potential issues like this since the gear is being inspected fewer times per year. And also less chances to fu(k things up...... GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #18 May 4, 2004 (FAA usually does'nt reissue tickets one they pull them. It tends to be a permenant action.) Not completely true. I know of one rigger who had his ticket pulled and he got it back some time later. I don't remember what hoops he had to jump through to get it back but he did manage it. My advice to every one is if you have questions about what has taken place inside your reserve container then maybe you need to take a more active role in learning what needs to be learned so that you can do it your self. Remember the old saying, if you want something done right do it your self. I am always amazed when a customer comes to me and says (in not so many words), I can't be bothered to take the time/ figure out how to save my own life. Will you please do it for me? A bit over simplified I know but then again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #19 May 4, 2004 Yep.. thats the flip side of the coin. There is a webpage out there with pictures of all sorts of rigging errors on it. Anyone know the link I'm talking about?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #20 May 4, 2004 "I'm not interested in screwing the rigger over but I would like him to know what he did - so he can do something to prevent it happening in the future." Yeah, I figured that."FYI my rig was bought and packed/assembled in the US but is now in the UK, where my rigger discovered the problem." Ah, okay, oddball situation. Edit to add--->Phree...Are you talking about Chuting star's rant and rave section? Its down or being rebuilt. http://www.chutingstar.com/rantandrave.html-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #21 May 4, 2004 Most of the rigger's in my neighborhood forgive the anal retentive me for inspecting my reserves prior to them inspecting the reserves. Usually, I launch it in front of them, hang it up, do my own cell checks, check each attachment point, do a full continuity check, then hand it off to them, which they in turn do again. Just did this on my tandem reserve last night. Some let me do it on my own if they have a backlog and some will even do it with me as I talk out loud about what I'm doing. I've yet to have a rigger complain about it and most see it as another set of checks and balances. On more than one occasion, this has turned into an impromptu class by the riggers for folks who've been skydiving for less than a year or two and never seen what goes on with a reserve A.I.R. The riggers seem to enjoy being on the Instructor's platform for awhile, the newbies seem to gain confidence from the education and it builds an additional respect and trust for the riggers. Just sharing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #22 May 4, 2004 Even on modern square gear doing things like pull tests seem to be a lost art on most riggers and they don't do them as often as they should. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only square reserves that need to be pull-tested are built by Performance Designs. A CSPA Rigger Examiner - who prefers to remain nameless - told me that the PD requirement is silly. I have never pulled a hole in a PD reserve, but have had to patch a couple that junior riggers damaged when they did too many pull tests too close together. Why anyone would pull test a clean Raven or Tempo is a compete mystery to me. As for pull testing round reserves, only models specifically mentioned in the acid mesh service bulletins, ADs, etc. should be pull tested. Since several manufacturers (i.e. Strong Enterprises and Free Flight Enterprises) never used the suspect (non-MIL SPEC) mesh, pull testing them is worse than a waste of time. For the record, the only canopies that failed my pull testing looked ugly at arm's length. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #23 May 4, 2004 This is the site I was thinking of: http://www.noexcusesrigging.com/Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #24 May 4, 2004 Rob, I'm still looking for opinions on what problems this packing error may have caused. Any thoughts? GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #25 May 4, 2004 I think that PDs pull test is more of a way to avoid liabilty. Example, " well your honor, the rigger in question clearly did not follow the manufactures instructions and perform the pull test while packing this virtually brand new reserve parachute nor did the rigger pack said parachute it in an enviroment containing a humidity factor of less than blaa blaa blaa...Therefore, we can not be held responsible. And for that reason and that reason only, I do it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
