Skydiving and Traumatic Brain Injury

[pchapman 261]

It would be interesting to look at the European EN966 standard, for air sports helmets. The European paragliding community seems to do OK with having such a standard.

Paragliding across the market of Europe is probably bigger than say skydiving in North America. Still, it isn't on the order of skiing or biking, so the smaller user base to cover certification costs is more comparable.

Paragliding helmets at a glance seem little more expensive than skydiving helmets, but it's hard to compare over the full range of sophistication. The cheapest European paragliding helmets do look more expensive than the cheapest skydiving ones -- more like $180 minimum.

I wonder what skydivers in Europe are using. As far as I know, despite generally more regulation there, I don't hear of jumpers being forced to use non-skydiving helmets.

A couple sources I've seen, not necessarily authoritative, suggest that the EN966 is a tougher standard than cycle & ski helmet certifications. (E.g., one respected helmet builder & reseller admitted they failed to get EN966 on a previously certified skiing helmet, EN1077, that they had expected would pass the EN966 tests.)

Both cheap and expensive paragliding helmets do tend to use EPS, polystyrene foam, for their liners -- the hard Styrofoam style stuff. Good for high impact protection, not quite as good for daily comfort.

Much as I like the good old ProTec we are used to (which nowadays has 2 layers of foam with different springiness, both of which spring back) those have no certification. That's their 'skate' helmet. Their 'bike' or 'ski' helmets have other foams. It may have their SXP (trade name for their expanded polypropylene) multi impact foam -- I think it is still a 'hard' foam. Or it will have the traditonal EPS. They meet certifications like the EN 1077 for skiing or the California biking CPSC standard.

So the traditional Protec doesn't match cycling helmets etc for hard impact protection, but should be good for lighter impacts where the softer foam will allow more of the potential deceleration distance to be used without bottoming out. Not sure about rebound issues though. Still better than the "shell with comfort padding only" found in some skydiving helmets.

I'm not advocating changing our whole system of non-regulation. But paragliding is a good sport to look at if considering helmet certification standards.

[topdocker 0]

Lanceav8r, why not do some of your own testing on this and get back to us? I don't have access to the type of helmet you are talking about and you seem very determined about this topic.

Specifically, take your rig and hang it up by the links or slinks in the approxiamte location of your slider grommets so that your risers are under tension (I would bet a garage with exposed joists would give a suitable location.) Stand on a chair and put the rig on, put on the helmet, move the chair and hang in the harness. Record your field of vision by having someone set beer bottles (or some other suitable marker) out at the extent of your vision horizontally and vertically. Move your head along all major axes to find the limit of vision and movement. Now repeat with the helmet off. Have your friend move the chair back so you don't have to cutaway to get down.

Is your field of vision limited by the limit in the range of motion?

Also, I wonder about really large helmets and risers strikes on opening. And, with a larger helmet, can line twist pin your head even further down?

Not trying to shoot up your discussion, just want to know all the hazards before we decide something is "safer."

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Jump more, post less!

[mjosparky 3]

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Peripherial vision (up and down) is obstructed with that kind of helmets and it's also too heavy for skydiving.

Of course, you can jump what ever you want... but I prefer stuff designed for skydiving because we all know that in skydiving one little f* up might be enough for fatality or bad injury.

Peripheral vision is side to side not up and down.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 3]

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Awesome, now we are getting somewhere. Take a look at this.

http://www.teamwendy.com/

This is the padding mentioned in the report. Maybe there is something here for us.

I think the helmet in “Team Wendy” is designed to protect from a different set of hazardous conditions. The shell incorporates Kevlar for ballistic protection and the padding is more for the concussion effect of a blast. They are not so much for impact; this is evident by shape of the lower shell. This is just my read on it and I could be way off.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[LouDiamond 1]

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Awesome, now we are getting somewhere. Take a look at this.

http://www.teamwendy.com/

This is the padding mentioned in the report. Maybe there is something here for us.

I think the helmet in “Team Wendy” is designed to protect from a different set of hazardous conditions. The shell incorporates Kevlar for ballistic protection and the padding is more for the concussion effect of a blast. They are not so much for impact; this is evident by shape of the lower shell. This is just my read on it and I could be way off.

Sparky

Point of clarification. Team wendy does not make helmets, just helmet pads and products like knee and elbow pads. If you take a look at the report I linked above, you will see that it is indeed aimed at impact testing and Team Wendy pads offer the best attenuation out of all the ones tested.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mjosparky 3]

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Awesome, now we are getting somewhere. Take a look at this.

http://www.teamwendy.com/

This is the padding mentioned in the report. Maybe there is something here for us.

I think the helmet in “Team Wendy” is designed to protect from a different set of hazardous conditions. The shell incorporates Kevlar for ballistic protection and the padding is more for the concussion effect of a blast. They are not so much for impact; this is evident by shape of the lower shell. This is just my read on it and I could be way off.

Sparky

Point of clarification. Team wendy does not make helmets, just helmet pads and products like knee and elbow pads. If you take a look at the report I linked above, you will see that it is indeed aimed at impact testing and Team Wendy pads offer the best attenuation out of all the ones tested.

Thank for the info. I will have to wait until I get home; I am on the computer from hell where I am now.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[DocPop 1]

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Peripheral vision is side to side not up and down.

Sparky

Actually peripheral is all around the edge of the visual field, including side to sit and up and down.

Dictionary.com:

"of, relating to, or being the outer part of the visual field <peripheral vision> "

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[Remster 24]

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Funny you mention that. Look at the report I linked above. One of the products they tested was d3o. Give it a read . I'll make it easy for you, page 53 but specifically the last sentence on pg 54.
"We believe the utility of this material as a helmet pad is questionable" sums it up quite well.

Once again,truth from the gut reigns supreme!

Remster

[LouDiamond 1]

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Funny you mention that. Look at the report I linked above. One of the products they tested was d3o. Give it a read . I'll make it easy for you, page 53 but specifically the last sentence on pg 54.
"We believe the utility of this material as a helmet pad is questionable" sums it up quite well.

Once again,truth from the gut reigns supreme!

All I can say is that is a Brilliant video.
The d30 stuff is pretty cool stuff and has some good uses but its clearly not a good idea for use in helmets. I also like the way they made their statement very "PC" in the report.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[diablopilot 2]

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We pay $1,500 dollars for an AAD to open your parachute if you lose consciousness. Wouldn't it be better to NOT lose consciousness in the first place?

Guess who doesn't jump an AAD as well?
I'd say the key factor to not loosing consciousness from a shot to the head, it to avoid the shot to the head in the first place.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mjosparky 3]

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We pay $1,500 dollars for an AAD to open your parachute if you lose consciousness. Wouldn't it be better to NOT lose consciousness in the first place?

Guess who doesn't jump an AAD as well?
I'd say the key factor to not loosing consciousness from a shot to the head, it to avoid the shot to the head in the first place.

With that head of yours what difference would it make.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[lanceav8r 0]

These are all very good points. The last thing we need is conscious people running in to each other under canopy. I really don't think that with a helmet similar to the Arai XD that is made for the skydiving market would be much of an issue though. The line twist thing might be something to really think about though. As far as vision? Well that is the argument that has been made about helmets in general but let me tell you that it is largely false. Watch a motocross race some time and tell me that these guys can't see. Maybe we should learn to look around (with or without a helmet).

As far as the Arai type helmet. I will do a little research.

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Lanceav8r, why not do some of your own testing on this and get back to us? I don't have access to the type of helmet you are talking about and you seem very determined about this topic.

Specifically, take your rig and hang it up by the links or slinks in the approxiamte location of your slider grommets so that your risers are under tension (I would bet a garage with exposed joists would give a suitable location.) Stand on a chair and put the rig on, put on the helmet, move the chair and hang in the harness. Record your field of vision by having someone set beer bottles (or some other suitable marker) out at the extent of your vision horizontally and vertically. Move your head along all major axes to find the limit of vision and movement. Now repeat with the helmet off. Have your friend move the chair back so you don't have to cutaway to get down.

Is your field of vision limited by the limit in the range of motion?

Also, I wonder about really large helmets and risers strikes on opening. And, with a larger helmet, can line twist pin your head even further down?

Not trying to shoot up your discussion, just want to know all the hazards before we decide something is "safer."

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[Skyper 0]

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Peripheral vision is side to side not up and down.

Sparky

Actually peripheral is all around the edge of the visual field, including side to sit and up and down.

Dictionary.com:

"of, relating to, or being the outer part of the visual field <peripheral vision> "

notice that when you don't have anything on your head (also no long hair) how wide is the angle of your peripherial vision. try to stand in the stright position and look stright in front of you... in most cases you'll see your chest without a need to move your eye and not to mention your neck. And to the "side" humans are even capable of spotting the objects which are slightliy behind them - again without moving the eye ball.

I honestly wonder in how many of canopy collision accidents the skydivers had an FF helmet.

Of course it will protect you from bumps during the formation jump but you'll have to pay the obstructed peripherial vision during the canopy flight.

imho combination of FF helmet and HP canopy is the ideal one paving the road to canopy collision.

and not even to mention these motor helmets which obstruct your p. vision not only up and down but also significantly to left and right...

[david3 0]

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These are all very good points. The last thing we need is conscious people running in to each other under canopy. I really don't think that with a helmet similar to the Arai XD that is made for the skydiving market would be much of an issue though. The line twist thing might be something to really think about though. As far as vision? Well that is the argument that has been made about helmets in general but let me tell you that it is largely false. Watch a motocross race some time and tell me that these guys can't see. Maybe we should learn to look around (with or without a helmet).

As far as the Arai type helmet. I will do a little research.

Are motocross riders looking for handles?

[davelepka 4]

Lance,

I hate to break it to you, but there are a large number of skydiving related injuries that no type of protective gear can save you from.

The 'useless' skydiving helemts that you seem to be against to protect you from many, many injuries. Case in point, I would much rather be wearing my skydiving helmet than nothing if I was going to be hit in the head with a baseball bat. Why? Because it offers a level of protection.

So let's consider that level of protecion, then let's consider the level of protection that a DOT or SNELL helmet will provide, then let's consider where the DOT or SNELL helmet will no longer help, because you're exposed to risks beyond what a DOT or SNELL helmet could provide on any skydive.

What you're complaint appears to be is if you happen to expose yourself to an injury greater than a skydiving helmet can protect you from, but within the protective range of a DOT or SNELL helmet, you're fucked, and that is the truth. However, once you get into injury significant enough that a skydiving helmet cannot protect you, your level of control, or survivability, even with a better helmet, becomes very slim.

If you hit hard enough that a skydiving helemt cannot protect you, what is going to protect your neck and spine? How is the extra weight of the DOT or SNELL helmet going to effect the outcome of the impact?

You're fighting a losing battle here. The better option is to plan ahead, and train skydivers to act in such a way that injuries are limited to bumps and bruises, for which skydiving helmets provide outstanding protection.

With no other 'drivers' on the road, no trees, rocks, or boulders, in the area of the activity, and all people in the environment being trained and involved in the activity, skydiving and motorcycling are dealing with two very different sets of circumstances when it comes to inhernet risks.

If people behave themselves in freefall, fly canopies commensurate with their abilities, and are mindful of their hard deck, we can easily avoid the type of severe injuries that would exceed the protection of a skydiving helmet, but fall within the protective range of a DOT or SNELL helmet.

Given the current state of skydiving, better visibility out of the helmet seems to be more important then upping the level of impact protection. There are no mirrors on a canopy.

[ridestrong 1]

A full-face helmet has NEVER caused a canopy collision, and never will be the cause of a canopy collision.... just another excuse.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[Skyper 0]

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A full-face helmet has NEVER caused a canopy collision, and never will be the cause of a canopy collision.... just another excuse.

I've never seen an incident report mentioning type of head gear used. Did you?

[mjosparky 3]

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A full-face helmet has NEVER caused a canopy collision, and never will be the cause of a canopy collision.... just another excuse.

I've never seen an incident report mentioning type of head gear used. Did you?

Read through these and see what you can find.

Sparky

http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=5%2F8%2F1995&MaxDate=1%2F2%2F2009&Place=&State=&Country=&Category=CC&MinAge=16&MaxAge=78&UnknownAge=on&MinJumps=0&MaxJumps=15000&UnknownJumps=on&AAD=&RSL=&Description=&DescriptionOperator=OR&Lessons=&LessonsOperator=OR

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[PiLFy 0]

I hear what you're saying. I currently jump w/a Benny. The more expensive skydiving helmets I've looked at didn't impress me. Yes, they have harder shells. So what? That's not going to save me. A shell that's too hard is actually more likely to cause injury. Most MC helmets are too bulbous & heavy to be used for jumping. My full face Arai would definitely hurt my neck. There's a helmet on this sitehttp://www.hjchelmets.com/that might fill the bill. There's no direct link to it. It's called an FS-3. I shot them an e-mail query last night. It weighs 3.2 pounds. Call it an even three w/o the visor. I think my Benny weighs about one pound even. Put a camera on top, & they'd be about equal. It also doesn't look too wide.

The truth is. MC helmets aren't as thick/bulbous as they need to be. They'd catch too much air if they did. As is, most of the good ones are too heavy & thick. It would be nice to have better protection for a mid-air collision. Let us know how your quest goes.

[mjosparky 3]

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I hear what you're saying. I currently jump w/a Benny. The more expensive skydiving helmets I've looked at didn't impress me. Yes, they have harder shells. So what? That's not going to save me. A shell that's too hard is actually more likely to cause injury. Most MC helmets are too bulbous & heavy to be used for jumping. My full face Arai would definitely hurt my neck. There's a helmet on this sitehttp://www.hjchelmets.com/that might fill the bill. There's no direct link to it. It's called an FS-3. I shot them an e-mail query last night. It weighs 3.2 pounds. Call it an even three w/o the visor. I think my Benny weighs about one pound even. Put a camera on top, & they'd be about equal. It also doesn't look too wide.

The truth is. MC helmets aren't as thick/bulbous as they need to be. They'd catch too much air if they did. As is, most of the good ones are too heavy & thick. It would be nice to have better protection for a mid-air collision. Let us know how your quest goes.

The Benny is one of the best kept secrets in skydiving.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[stayhigh 2]

It is your head and brain, you have your chice to wear whatever you want.
You'll think that it is crazy that some choose to jump over 4000 jumps without even a shoe on.
Lead the way for us and start jumping something with more protection, maybe some will follow.
And what kind of head gear did you wear for the last 2000 jumps????

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[lanceav8r 0]

I jumped a custom made camera helmet for many of those jumps that would do nothing if not make an injury worse. I used a frap hat for most of the rest which is also useless.

I am a little smarter now and realize after loosing lets say 100 or so friends and acquaintances over the last twenty years due to various reasons in this sport that I am not bulletproof. I just started thinking maybe there are ways to mitigate some of these risks.

Trust me that I am looking for something that works. I really don't care if I look like Lord Helmet or Major Asshole as long as it works and is safe to use. I am sure I would look a whole lot less cool if all I could do is drool on myself.

Are we as a group really as safety adverse as this group sounds? Personally I would rather live to jump another day.

[davelepka 4]

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after loosing lets say 100 or so friends and acquaintances over the last twenty years due to various reasons in this sport that I am not bulletproof. I just started thinking maybe there are ways to mitigate some of these risks.

How many of those 100 sustained survivable injuries accept for a TBI? How many of those had a 'slight' TBI, enough that a DOT or SNELL helmet would have made the difference?

No helmet can save you from an injury that would inflict a severe TBI, so again, it's a very small slice of injuries that would be prevented with better skydiving helmets, and that's at the risk of increasing another danger, canopy collisions, due to reduced peripheral vision.

Even if you could develop (or just find) the technology, you still have the hurdles of reduced peripheral vision, greater weight, greater drag, and the (potentially) higher price point. If training and jumper awareness were better, and about ten other things had already been 'fixed' in skydiving, I could see perfecting the helmet as being on the 'to do' list, but as it sits now, with the very small percentage of incidents resulting in a TBI, there is time (and money) better spent on fixing larger, more immediate problems.

[Marisan 0]

I am a little smarter now and realize after loosing lets say 100 or so friends and acquaintances over the last twenty years due to various reasons in this sport that I am not bulletproof.

A hundred friends in 20 years.
My how the sport has changed since I gave up.

[toeknee81 0]

Wear a hockey helmet, this offers a lot of cranial protection. just need to make a few modifications to the chin strap to hold it on better.