lanceav8r 0 #76 May 7, 2011 QuoteQuote How many of those 100 sustained survivable injuries accept for a TBI? How many of those had a 'slight' TBI, enough that a DOT or SNELL helmet would have made the difference? I really don't know. It wasn't on my radar to investigate those. I don't know if the USPA even kept statistics that would look at it. These are all good things to look at. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PiLFy 0 #77 May 7, 2011 Sorry Dave, but I need to disagree w/a couple of your points. "No helmet can save you from an injury that would inflict a severe TBI" Check out the attached pic. That helmet was worn by a Squid doing about 140MPH on the street. He lost it. His head hit the stamped sheet metal support for a road sign as he slid. They thought he was dead @the scene. He eventually returned to his life w/no known impairment. The problem w/that Arai, is the same as w/mine. You'd have to have shoulders like Andre the Giant for it to not get in the way of your risers. "as it sits now, with the very small percentage of incidents resulting in a TBI" "so again, it's a very small slice of injuries that would be prevented with better skydiving helmets" We don't know this. A case in point. There was recently an interesting article in Sports Illustrated (I think). It looked @better protection for football players regarding concussions. As well as the long-term effects of those injuries. That article cited research wherein accelerometers were placed in every helmet of a high school football team. Cognitive testing was done in the beginning as a baseline. Then, that testing was repeated once or twice throughout the season. The bar was set @80(I don't remember the force measure used). The Doctors said it took 80 whatevers from a hit to concuss a player. The researchers found significant impairment where they didn't expect it later on in the season. They found a number of kids who were never knocked out during the season. They only took regular, run of the mill hits during plays. The forces of impact were all below the 80 threshold. Yet, they all showed marked cognitive impairment. There were several kids showing this damage. The kids weren't always aware that there was a problem. Your opinion that better helmets would only help in a very small percentage of mishaps is, IMHO, mistaken. We don't know how many lesser brain injuries remain unreported &/or unknown. Your negating better protecting helmets due to lost peripheral vision doesn't fly. Motorcyclists & race car drivers have been overcoming the slight field of vision losses for decades. Weight & drag/width are real issues, but they're surmountable. Some premium M/C helmets are made light w/carbon fiber. However, they're designed for the track, & are too thick. They could be made a bit thinner, & still offer much better protection than what I've seen in skydiving helmets. Personally, if a helmet was available w/much better protection, & was only a bit thicker? I'd buy one. The brain is still holds a fair amount of mysteries. It's much better to not suffer any injury to it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #78 May 10, 2011 Quote ... Your negating better protecting helmets due to lost peripheral vision doesn't fly. Motorcyclists & race car drivers have been overcoming the slight field of vision losses for decades. ... judging by your jumpnumbers, all you have ever seen in freefall is an instructor or a coach IN YOUR FACE. the motorcyclists navigate 2D; skydivers navigate 3D - YOUR argument doesnt fly! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PiLFy 0 #79 May 10, 2011 VB, that is a bike helmet in your avatar. Isn't it? Ever ridden on the track(pavement)? How about motocross? You're looking everywhere you can, not just in two dimensions. The slight loss of peripheral vision is compensated for by swiveling your head more. Hell, it might ultimately make some people safer. When I'm in freefall. I'm looking all over the place. I honestly don't see a problem, here. Now please go back in the factory, & make me some more Swiss Chocolate. I'm running low. Thanks, man. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #80 May 10, 2011 nope, what's in my avatar is a can of "Victoria Bitter", a beer from australia.. let's talk again in another 200 FF-jumps of yours, where you will be so concentrated on not fucking up, that you will be glad to compensate keeping your body-position by only moving your eyes.. motocross and skydiving are not the same sports! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PiLFy 0 #81 May 10, 2011 "let's talk again in another 200 FF-jumps of yours" Ooh, I'm sorry Mr.SkyGod. I hope my squeaking has not offended thee??? It's a curious thing. This friendly helmet debate has stirred some serious defensiveness in some. I've received a few PMs about this from people. It's kinda like mandatory helmet laws w/riding. The excuses of impeded vision, weight, shifting, yadda_yadda all get cited. We strive to increase the safety elsewhere in the sport. Why not something so simple? It wouldn't be a full-on M/C helmet. That would be too big N heavy. A strong carbon fiber shell, w/better quality pad sets, could dramatically improve protection for someforeseeable impacts. More protection w/o any appreciable detriment seems like a no-brainer to me. Y'all do what you want. Four pages of this was more than enough. I'm done w/it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #82 May 11, 2011 Quote "let's talk again in another 200 FF-jumps of yours" Ooh, I'm sorry Mr.SkyGod. I hope my squeaking has not offended thee???It's a curious thing. This friendly helmet debate has stirred some serious defensiveness in some. I've received a few PMs about this from people. It's kinda like mandatory helmet laws w/riding. The excuses of impeded vision, weight, shifting, yadda_yadda all get cited. We strive to increase the safety elsewhere in the sport. Why not something so simple? It wouldn't be a full-on M/C helmet. That would be too big N heavy. A strong carbon fiber shell, w/better quality pad sets, could dramatically improve protection for someforeseeable impacts. More protection w/o any appreciable detriment seems like a no-brainer to me. Y'all do what you want. Four pages of this was more than enough. I'm done w/it. dude, i'm NOT mr. skygod; and if you knew me, you'd know.. TBH, u sound a lot like me or every other jumper that started off just fresh, knew everything and had a solution to every problem; i dont blame you for that! in my country, riding with a helmet has been established for ages; actually, just about now it's being discussed if they want to make it mandatory for bicycles.. i'm not offended at all. i'm just quoting personal experiences. hence i'm saying, let's talk again in another couple hundred jumps. looks like you are the one that's offended.. mr. young hotshot! if you contract damage to your head, skull and brain that it's life-threatening in skydiving, u probably suffer other internal damage that makes surviving pretty hard. if you look at BASEjumping, much sturdier helmets are the norm, also the fact that you may hit a massive object while in freefall or under canopy is more prone to happen, that's fine. if you hit the only real danger in skydiving, which is the ground, then it's very likely that you fucked up so badly that a sturdy helmet wont help you ANYWAY. and it disturbs everything else between exit and and ground, and does make for a more dangerous experience. the risk/reward-factor is NOT worth it! so, please have a go at this post.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PiLFy 0 #83 May 11, 2011 so, please have a go at this post. Oh, alright... u sound a lot like me or every other jumper that started off just fresh, knew everything and had a solution to every problem; Nope, far from it. looks like you are the one that's offended.. mr. young hotshot! Again, nope. I'm not. I was just joking w/you. You surprise me a little w/this reply, VB. It must be a translation-to-English-as-a-fourth-language thing. It's all good. I still respectfully disagree. Wear what you want, bud. Maybe I'll get to take you up on that couch offer next year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #84 May 11, 2011 i'm pretty happy with my mindwarp, i saves me from a knee in freefall, the one or other bump in freefall, it carries my videocamera.. but if i smash the ground so hard that i'd NEED a helmet.. mhm, i'm probably having bigger problems! and yup, offer is still standing.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #85 May 11, 2011 Quote if you hit the only real danger in skydiving, which is the ground, then it's very likely that you fucked up so badly that a sturdy helmet wont help you ANYWAY. and it disturbs everything else between exit and and ground, and does make for a more dangerous experience. the risk/reward-factor is NOT worth it! so, please have a go at this post.. Let me You are CLUELESS if you think that an good impact resistant helmet can not help protect you from massive brain injury from a botched landing. Femurs and other bones will mend. If the industry could get a helmet that LOOKED good and performed like a motorcycle helmet, many many people would wear them. Now when you have 800 more jumps you might be at MY level of undertanding. I also have 30 odd years motorbike riding experience, starting with heavy fibrelglass Bell helmets and progressing to light composite fibre helments.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ridestrong 1 #86 May 11, 2011 It just depends on the type of impact... When the head impacts a solid immobile object such as the ground, the head will still be going from (x) speed to zero instantly. While something like a motorcycle helmet may better protect the skull from fracture etc it won't likely make much difference if any at all in the shearing forces on the brain and sub-dural/arachnoid space within the skull when it comes to rapid deceleration injuries. Therefore, with the motorcycle helmet one may avoid something such as a fracture..., but will still suffer a serious traumatic brain or intracranial injury. When it comes to any other movable object striking the head, yeah the motorcycle helmet will provide better protection.*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lanceav8r 0 #87 May 11, 2011 This thread is killing me. If you honestly think that a helmet is not necessary in this sport then feel free to go and get your brain damage. The reality is this: Your brain is responsible for everything that makes you who you are. It causes you to breath, it causes you to think, it causes you to walk, it causes you to feel emotion, etc. and it is fragile to the extreme. If you don't want to protect that then who am I to call you an idiot? It is your choice and your brain damage. If anyone cares to attack MY experience, I have a couple of thousand jumps from a while back. I am NOT current but getting current again. I have medals in US National 4 and 8 way open in formation skydiving. I also raced motocross for many years with a broken femur and a helicopter ride to prove it. I have broken more bones than likely anyone here HOWEVER my brain is just fine. It is ok ONLY because I was always wearing a high quality helmet. I have had several concussions while wearing those helmets. I can only imagine how I would have faired if I were wearing the skydiving carbon fiber decorative hat. After removing myself from this sport so I could pursue a real career and then recently returning, I seem to want to actually pay attention to little things like staying alive and healthy. Call that age or just plain getting smarter. A real helmet would make me feel a whole hell of a lot better about the staying alive and healthy. If I hammer in because of a dust devil, stupid canopy tricks, turbulence or whatever, I know I can survive another broken femur or whatever but only if my brain is not damaged or destroyed. If we can figure out some REAL protection I truly think this will benefit our sport. Yesterday I put on my motocross helmet while wearing my rig. I can see all of my handles just fine. Also my peripheral vision is virtually NOT affected. The only thing I see is that due to it's larger size it could possibly interfere slightly with the risers while under canopy. So I agree that a motocross/supermoto style helmet is not ideal but it is a starting point. If you are worried about the weight...Have you ever seen what Norm Kent or Tom Sanders jump with? Way back in the early 2000's, when many of you were in Junior High School, camera jumpers had to be real men. We didn't have these little baby cameras. We jumped big assed helmets with big assed cameras. We were fine and rarely did we run over each other under canopy. Some of the reasons a few of you have voiced against real helmets are complete nonsense. Are you guys afraid someone is going to force you to wear a real helmet some day? Well that would be the shits wouldn't it. Maybe you should protest the helmet laws with Gary Busey. Oh wait. Garry isn't against helmet laws anymore since his TBI while not wearing a helmet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Busey Then someone attacks the low experienced jumper when he is obviously making good points. Sometimes people can't see things because they are too close. Maybe just maybe someone that has stepped back or someone that hasn't had the same experience that you have can offer something intelligent to the discussion. Maybe they can see things that you can't because you are so close. Don't attack an intelligent response because his jump number is not as high as yours. It is your choice to not ask for a better helmet. You should honestly ask yourself why you wouldn't want one. If it is just your own protest against the establishment then pick something that won't end in your own Dame Bramage. Just my two cents, nothing more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #88 May 11, 2011 QuoteThis thread is killing me. If you honestly think that a helmet is not necessary in this sport then feel free to go and get your brain damage. . not sure if you are just replying tom e as i was last on the list or rebuking me. I actually agree with you. As to the massive brain deceleration, helmets can ameliorate some of this, there's quite a bit of research gone into the lining of helmets. The lining is the part that does the majority of the head saving, the shell does a minor amount but mostly just looks good.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lanceav8r 0 #89 May 11, 2011 I am not referring to anyone in particular. The tone of the thread from more than a few is anti-helmet or "my decorative CF hat is just fine". I am not attacking anyone for their views. Hopefully a healthy discussion is a result of this thread and maybe a seed could be planted. I really would like to see helmets in this sport go from fashion helmets to protective helmets. We need to stop hurting or killing the participants in skydiving. Our sport seems to be dying a slow death since the mid 90's peak. The economy is largely to blame but the amount of injuries and deaths sure isn't helping things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PiLFy 0 #90 May 11, 2011 "Then someone attacks the low experienced jumper when he is obviously making good points. Sometimes people can't see things because they are too close. Maybe just maybe someone that has stepped back or someone that hasn't had the same experience that you have can offer something intelligent to the discussion. Maybe they can see things that you can't because you are so close. Don't attack an intelligent response because his jump number is not as high as yours." OK everyone, I didn't pay him to type that....But, I liked it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PiLFy 0 #91 May 11, 2011 "Hopefully a healthy discussion is a result of this thread and maybe a seed could be planted." Maybe we're going about this the wrong way, Lance? Let's try a different tack. How about: "Hey, guys. You want to make a boat-load of money? Find a large, existing carbon fiber shell. Source some real pad sets for it. Then, sit back & make serious bank on it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites floormonkey 0 #92 May 13, 2011 My young cousin was standing on the rear bumper of a pickup truck. With the truck standing still, he jumped backwards off of it. He fell backwards, his head hit the ground. We unplugged him 3 days later. This was a jump from a static object, where the object jumped off was about 18" off the ground. He was about 5'6" tall, so that makes a distance traveled of around 7 feet with little or no velocity. The impact killed him. My half-shell protec weighs less than 12 oz and does not restrict vision in any way. I often reach up just to make sure I have it on because it is so light. How does that make for a more dangerous experience? If you think the only real danger in skydiving is the ground, then you obviously haven't been reading the incident forum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #93 May 13, 2011 i'm talking about motorcycle helmets; i wear my mindwarp on every jump. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PiLFy 0 #94 May 13, 2011 Auf der hellen seite. I've received hate mail PMs from a couple of trolls. It appears they don't wear helmets. If only they didn't (in)breed first... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #95 May 14, 2011 Quote Auf der hellen seite. I've received hate mail PMs from a couple of trolls. It appears they don't wear helmets. If only they didn't (in)breed first... Hate mail is usually sent by bottom feeders with little dicks. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PiLFy 0 #96 May 14, 2011 Yeah, I know. That's what makes it fun. They don't get under my skin a bit. I do find it sad that some people are so limited. I looked up an old article for someone privately. It contains some good info on helmet tech. It is a bit lengthy, but worth the read. I'll post the link here for All. http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/index.html Plus, here's the SI article I had mentioned: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1176377/1/index.htm Have a nice N safe weekend, everyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #97 May 14, 2011 Quote Auf der hellen seite. I've received hate mail PMs from a couple of trolls. It appears they don't wear helmets. If only they didn't (in)breed first... Now you know why I keep my PMs turned off. Seriously, though, I think that when someone sends a personally abusive PM, he forfeits the presumption that his PM and identity will be kept private. Abuse is abuse,and deserves no protection, including from disclosure. If someone's abusing you via PM, you should feel free to re-publish it out in the open, or just name & shame them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerpaul 1 #98 May 14, 2011 QuoteNow you know why I keep my PMs turned off. The flip side of that coin is that you miss some private discussion with people who have no intention of giving you shit. ETA - you can always add the name to the "Block Private Messages" list in the "Forum Settings" section of your profile if/when it becomes a problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PiLFy 0 #99 May 14, 2011 Nah, not worth the effort. We already know who the idiots are on this site. If someone talks smack to me in an uninvited e-mail? Plunk goes the delete key. Done. A Fool is a Fool, & not worth wasting time on. I'd rather stay on topic. On blocking PMs. I've received far more good ones than bad. I think you're missing out. I guess openly being a lawyer, though. Perhaps people might pester you w/legal questions? Thanks for the sentiment, but I'll keep them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dninness 4 #100 May 14, 2011 IMHO, I think this is a bit of tempest in a teapot. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the current crop of skydiving helmets strike a decent balance between protecting your melon and not snapping your neck. Add more protection and you'll likely add weight, which increases the potential for injuring your neck on a hard opening. How many accident reports have we ever read where the conclusion is "a better head protection would have made a difference in this accident"? Very, very few. I honestly don't expect my Oxygn to protect me from much more than a boot to the head, or door rash, or a botched landing faceplant. If it does, well, groovy. Until then, it keeps my hair and my audibles in place. Its about balance: what level of protection are you willing to accept balanced against the usability/suitability of the gear and the potential for its need? Skydiving is _full_ of risk/need/reward calculations. My dad is a motorcycle rider, he used to race (moto-x, flat track, road race), and he wears leathers and a helmet every time he rides. Enroute to work one hot day, a kid pulled up alongside him at a traffic light wearing a pair of sneakers, running shorts, eye pro and a tiny helmet. He looks at my dad, says "Ain't you a little overdressed?" My dad says "Hey, if I knew when I'd be needing it, I'd only wear it then." That being said, if you can find a way to do a better protection job within the same size/weight envelope, then yeah, do so. No question there. But I think that any helmet is probably better than nothing, so pick the one thats not going to restrict your vision, give you a neck-ache, or whatever.NIN D-19617, AFF-I '19 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 4 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
PiLFy 0 #77 May 7, 2011 Sorry Dave, but I need to disagree w/a couple of your points. "No helmet can save you from an injury that would inflict a severe TBI" Check out the attached pic. That helmet was worn by a Squid doing about 140MPH on the street. He lost it. His head hit the stamped sheet metal support for a road sign as he slid. They thought he was dead @the scene. He eventually returned to his life w/no known impairment. The problem w/that Arai, is the same as w/mine. You'd have to have shoulders like Andre the Giant for it to not get in the way of your risers. "as it sits now, with the very small percentage of incidents resulting in a TBI" "so again, it's a very small slice of injuries that would be prevented with better skydiving helmets" We don't know this. A case in point. There was recently an interesting article in Sports Illustrated (I think). It looked @better protection for football players regarding concussions. As well as the long-term effects of those injuries. That article cited research wherein accelerometers were placed in every helmet of a high school football team. Cognitive testing was done in the beginning as a baseline. Then, that testing was repeated once or twice throughout the season. The bar was set @80(I don't remember the force measure used). The Doctors said it took 80 whatevers from a hit to concuss a player. The researchers found significant impairment where they didn't expect it later on in the season. They found a number of kids who were never knocked out during the season. They only took regular, run of the mill hits during plays. The forces of impact were all below the 80 threshold. Yet, they all showed marked cognitive impairment. There were several kids showing this damage. The kids weren't always aware that there was a problem. Your opinion that better helmets would only help in a very small percentage of mishaps is, IMHO, mistaken. We don't know how many lesser brain injuries remain unreported &/or unknown. Your negating better protecting helmets due to lost peripheral vision doesn't fly. Motorcyclists & race car drivers have been overcoming the slight field of vision losses for decades. Weight & drag/width are real issues, but they're surmountable. Some premium M/C helmets are made light w/carbon fiber. However, they're designed for the track, & are too thick. They could be made a bit thinner, & still offer much better protection than what I've seen in skydiving helmets. Personally, if a helmet was available w/much better protection, & was only a bit thicker? I'd buy one. The brain is still holds a fair amount of mysteries. It's much better to not suffer any injury to it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #78 May 10, 2011 Quote ... Your negating better protecting helmets due to lost peripheral vision doesn't fly. Motorcyclists & race car drivers have been overcoming the slight field of vision losses for decades. ... judging by your jumpnumbers, all you have ever seen in freefall is an instructor or a coach IN YOUR FACE. the motorcyclists navigate 2D; skydivers navigate 3D - YOUR argument doesnt fly! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #79 May 10, 2011 VB, that is a bike helmet in your avatar. Isn't it? Ever ridden on the track(pavement)? How about motocross? You're looking everywhere you can, not just in two dimensions. The slight loss of peripheral vision is compensated for by swiveling your head more. Hell, it might ultimately make some people safer. When I'm in freefall. I'm looking all over the place. I honestly don't see a problem, here. Now please go back in the factory, & make me some more Swiss Chocolate. I'm running low. Thanks, man. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #80 May 10, 2011 nope, what's in my avatar is a can of "Victoria Bitter", a beer from australia.. let's talk again in another 200 FF-jumps of yours, where you will be so concentrated on not fucking up, that you will be glad to compensate keeping your body-position by only moving your eyes.. motocross and skydiving are not the same sports! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #81 May 10, 2011 "let's talk again in another 200 FF-jumps of yours" Ooh, I'm sorry Mr.SkyGod. I hope my squeaking has not offended thee??? It's a curious thing. This friendly helmet debate has stirred some serious defensiveness in some. I've received a few PMs about this from people. It's kinda like mandatory helmet laws w/riding. The excuses of impeded vision, weight, shifting, yadda_yadda all get cited. We strive to increase the safety elsewhere in the sport. Why not something so simple? It wouldn't be a full-on M/C helmet. That would be too big N heavy. A strong carbon fiber shell, w/better quality pad sets, could dramatically improve protection for someforeseeable impacts. More protection w/o any appreciable detriment seems like a no-brainer to me. Y'all do what you want. Four pages of this was more than enough. I'm done w/it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #82 May 11, 2011 Quote "let's talk again in another 200 FF-jumps of yours" Ooh, I'm sorry Mr.SkyGod. I hope my squeaking has not offended thee???It's a curious thing. This friendly helmet debate has stirred some serious defensiveness in some. I've received a few PMs about this from people. It's kinda like mandatory helmet laws w/riding. The excuses of impeded vision, weight, shifting, yadda_yadda all get cited. We strive to increase the safety elsewhere in the sport. Why not something so simple? It wouldn't be a full-on M/C helmet. That would be too big N heavy. A strong carbon fiber shell, w/better quality pad sets, could dramatically improve protection for someforeseeable impacts. More protection w/o any appreciable detriment seems like a no-brainer to me. Y'all do what you want. Four pages of this was more than enough. I'm done w/it. dude, i'm NOT mr. skygod; and if you knew me, you'd know.. TBH, u sound a lot like me or every other jumper that started off just fresh, knew everything and had a solution to every problem; i dont blame you for that! in my country, riding with a helmet has been established for ages; actually, just about now it's being discussed if they want to make it mandatory for bicycles.. i'm not offended at all. i'm just quoting personal experiences. hence i'm saying, let's talk again in another couple hundred jumps. looks like you are the one that's offended.. mr. young hotshot! if you contract damage to your head, skull and brain that it's life-threatening in skydiving, u probably suffer other internal damage that makes surviving pretty hard. if you look at BASEjumping, much sturdier helmets are the norm, also the fact that you may hit a massive object while in freefall or under canopy is more prone to happen, that's fine. if you hit the only real danger in skydiving, which is the ground, then it's very likely that you fucked up so badly that a sturdy helmet wont help you ANYWAY. and it disturbs everything else between exit and and ground, and does make for a more dangerous experience. the risk/reward-factor is NOT worth it! so, please have a go at this post.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #83 May 11, 2011 so, please have a go at this post. Oh, alright... u sound a lot like me or every other jumper that started off just fresh, knew everything and had a solution to every problem; Nope, far from it. looks like you are the one that's offended.. mr. young hotshot! Again, nope. I'm not. I was just joking w/you. You surprise me a little w/this reply, VB. It must be a translation-to-English-as-a-fourth-language thing. It's all good. I still respectfully disagree. Wear what you want, bud. Maybe I'll get to take you up on that couch offer next year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #84 May 11, 2011 i'm pretty happy with my mindwarp, i saves me from a knee in freefall, the one or other bump in freefall, it carries my videocamera.. but if i smash the ground so hard that i'd NEED a helmet.. mhm, i'm probably having bigger problems! and yup, offer is still standing.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #85 May 11, 2011 Quote if you hit the only real danger in skydiving, which is the ground, then it's very likely that you fucked up so badly that a sturdy helmet wont help you ANYWAY. and it disturbs everything else between exit and and ground, and does make for a more dangerous experience. the risk/reward-factor is NOT worth it! so, please have a go at this post.. Let me You are CLUELESS if you think that an good impact resistant helmet can not help protect you from massive brain injury from a botched landing. Femurs and other bones will mend. If the industry could get a helmet that LOOKED good and performed like a motorcycle helmet, many many people would wear them. Now when you have 800 more jumps you might be at MY level of undertanding. I also have 30 odd years motorbike riding experience, starting with heavy fibrelglass Bell helmets and progressing to light composite fibre helments.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridestrong 1 #86 May 11, 2011 It just depends on the type of impact... When the head impacts a solid immobile object such as the ground, the head will still be going from (x) speed to zero instantly. While something like a motorcycle helmet may better protect the skull from fracture etc it won't likely make much difference if any at all in the shearing forces on the brain and sub-dural/arachnoid space within the skull when it comes to rapid deceleration injuries. Therefore, with the motorcycle helmet one may avoid something such as a fracture..., but will still suffer a serious traumatic brain or intracranial injury. When it comes to any other movable object striking the head, yeah the motorcycle helmet will provide better protection.*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lanceav8r 0 #87 May 11, 2011 This thread is killing me. If you honestly think that a helmet is not necessary in this sport then feel free to go and get your brain damage. The reality is this: Your brain is responsible for everything that makes you who you are. It causes you to breath, it causes you to think, it causes you to walk, it causes you to feel emotion, etc. and it is fragile to the extreme. If you don't want to protect that then who am I to call you an idiot? It is your choice and your brain damage. If anyone cares to attack MY experience, I have a couple of thousand jumps from a while back. I am NOT current but getting current again. I have medals in US National 4 and 8 way open in formation skydiving. I also raced motocross for many years with a broken femur and a helicopter ride to prove it. I have broken more bones than likely anyone here HOWEVER my brain is just fine. It is ok ONLY because I was always wearing a high quality helmet. I have had several concussions while wearing those helmets. I can only imagine how I would have faired if I were wearing the skydiving carbon fiber decorative hat. After removing myself from this sport so I could pursue a real career and then recently returning, I seem to want to actually pay attention to little things like staying alive and healthy. Call that age or just plain getting smarter. A real helmet would make me feel a whole hell of a lot better about the staying alive and healthy. If I hammer in because of a dust devil, stupid canopy tricks, turbulence or whatever, I know I can survive another broken femur or whatever but only if my brain is not damaged or destroyed. If we can figure out some REAL protection I truly think this will benefit our sport. Yesterday I put on my motocross helmet while wearing my rig. I can see all of my handles just fine. Also my peripheral vision is virtually NOT affected. The only thing I see is that due to it's larger size it could possibly interfere slightly with the risers while under canopy. So I agree that a motocross/supermoto style helmet is not ideal but it is a starting point. If you are worried about the weight...Have you ever seen what Norm Kent or Tom Sanders jump with? Way back in the early 2000's, when many of you were in Junior High School, camera jumpers had to be real men. We didn't have these little baby cameras. We jumped big assed helmets with big assed cameras. We were fine and rarely did we run over each other under canopy. Some of the reasons a few of you have voiced against real helmets are complete nonsense. Are you guys afraid someone is going to force you to wear a real helmet some day? Well that would be the shits wouldn't it. Maybe you should protest the helmet laws with Gary Busey. Oh wait. Garry isn't against helmet laws anymore since his TBI while not wearing a helmet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Busey Then someone attacks the low experienced jumper when he is obviously making good points. Sometimes people can't see things because they are too close. Maybe just maybe someone that has stepped back or someone that hasn't had the same experience that you have can offer something intelligent to the discussion. Maybe they can see things that you can't because you are so close. Don't attack an intelligent response because his jump number is not as high as yours. It is your choice to not ask for a better helmet. You should honestly ask yourself why you wouldn't want one. If it is just your own protest against the establishment then pick something that won't end in your own Dame Bramage. Just my two cents, nothing more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #88 May 11, 2011 QuoteThis thread is killing me. If you honestly think that a helmet is not necessary in this sport then feel free to go and get your brain damage. . not sure if you are just replying tom e as i was last on the list or rebuking me. I actually agree with you. As to the massive brain deceleration, helmets can ameliorate some of this, there's quite a bit of research gone into the lining of helmets. The lining is the part that does the majority of the head saving, the shell does a minor amount but mostly just looks good.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lanceav8r 0 #89 May 11, 2011 I am not referring to anyone in particular. The tone of the thread from more than a few is anti-helmet or "my decorative CF hat is just fine". I am not attacking anyone for their views. Hopefully a healthy discussion is a result of this thread and maybe a seed could be planted. I really would like to see helmets in this sport go from fashion helmets to protective helmets. We need to stop hurting or killing the participants in skydiving. Our sport seems to be dying a slow death since the mid 90's peak. The economy is largely to blame but the amount of injuries and deaths sure isn't helping things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #90 May 11, 2011 "Then someone attacks the low experienced jumper when he is obviously making good points. Sometimes people can't see things because they are too close. Maybe just maybe someone that has stepped back or someone that hasn't had the same experience that you have can offer something intelligent to the discussion. Maybe they can see things that you can't because you are so close. Don't attack an intelligent response because his jump number is not as high as yours." OK everyone, I didn't pay him to type that....But, I liked it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #91 May 11, 2011 "Hopefully a healthy discussion is a result of this thread and maybe a seed could be planted." Maybe we're going about this the wrong way, Lance? Let's try a different tack. How about: "Hey, guys. You want to make a boat-load of money? Find a large, existing carbon fiber shell. Source some real pad sets for it. Then, sit back & make serious bank on it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
floormonkey 0 #92 May 13, 2011 My young cousin was standing on the rear bumper of a pickup truck. With the truck standing still, he jumped backwards off of it. He fell backwards, his head hit the ground. We unplugged him 3 days later. This was a jump from a static object, where the object jumped off was about 18" off the ground. He was about 5'6" tall, so that makes a distance traveled of around 7 feet with little or no velocity. The impact killed him. My half-shell protec weighs less than 12 oz and does not restrict vision in any way. I often reach up just to make sure I have it on because it is so light. How does that make for a more dangerous experience? If you think the only real danger in skydiving is the ground, then you obviously haven't been reading the incident forum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #93 May 13, 2011 i'm talking about motorcycle helmets; i wear my mindwarp on every jump. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #94 May 13, 2011 Auf der hellen seite. I've received hate mail PMs from a couple of trolls. It appears they don't wear helmets. If only they didn't (in)breed first... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #95 May 14, 2011 Quote Auf der hellen seite. I've received hate mail PMs from a couple of trolls. It appears they don't wear helmets. If only they didn't (in)breed first... Hate mail is usually sent by bottom feeders with little dicks. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #96 May 14, 2011 Yeah, I know. That's what makes it fun. They don't get under my skin a bit. I do find it sad that some people are so limited. I looked up an old article for someone privately. It contains some good info on helmet tech. It is a bit lengthy, but worth the read. I'll post the link here for All. http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/index.html Plus, here's the SI article I had mentioned: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1176377/1/index.htm Have a nice N safe weekend, everyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #97 May 14, 2011 Quote Auf der hellen seite. I've received hate mail PMs from a couple of trolls. It appears they don't wear helmets. If only they didn't (in)breed first... Now you know why I keep my PMs turned off. Seriously, though, I think that when someone sends a personally abusive PM, he forfeits the presumption that his PM and identity will be kept private. Abuse is abuse,and deserves no protection, including from disclosure. If someone's abusing you via PM, you should feel free to re-publish it out in the open, or just name & shame them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #98 May 14, 2011 QuoteNow you know why I keep my PMs turned off. The flip side of that coin is that you miss some private discussion with people who have no intention of giving you shit. ETA - you can always add the name to the "Block Private Messages" list in the "Forum Settings" section of your profile if/when it becomes a problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #99 May 14, 2011 Nah, not worth the effort. We already know who the idiots are on this site. If someone talks smack to me in an uninvited e-mail? Plunk goes the delete key. Done. A Fool is a Fool, & not worth wasting time on. I'd rather stay on topic. On blocking PMs. I've received far more good ones than bad. I think you're missing out. I guess openly being a lawyer, though. Perhaps people might pester you w/legal questions? Thanks for the sentiment, but I'll keep them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dninness 4 #100 May 14, 2011 IMHO, I think this is a bit of tempest in a teapot. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the current crop of skydiving helmets strike a decent balance between protecting your melon and not snapping your neck. Add more protection and you'll likely add weight, which increases the potential for injuring your neck on a hard opening. How many accident reports have we ever read where the conclusion is "a better head protection would have made a difference in this accident"? Very, very few. I honestly don't expect my Oxygn to protect me from much more than a boot to the head, or door rash, or a botched landing faceplant. If it does, well, groovy. Until then, it keeps my hair and my audibles in place. Its about balance: what level of protection are you willing to accept balanced against the usability/suitability of the gear and the potential for its need? Skydiving is _full_ of risk/need/reward calculations. My dad is a motorcycle rider, he used to race (moto-x, flat track, road race), and he wears leathers and a helmet every time he rides. Enroute to work one hot day, a kid pulled up alongside him at a traffic light wearing a pair of sneakers, running shorts, eye pro and a tiny helmet. He looks at my dad, says "Ain't you a little overdressed?" My dad says "Hey, if I knew when I'd be needing it, I'd only wear it then." That being said, if you can find a way to do a better protection job within the same size/weight envelope, then yeah, do so. No question there. But I think that any helmet is probably better than nothing, so pick the one thats not going to restrict your vision, give you a neck-ache, or whatever.NIN D-19617, AFF-I '19 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
