JerseyShawn 0 #1 June 23, 2011 Ok, to start Im not going to jump again til August, after my first canopy class (in the wake of canopy incidents), I need to know what my canopy is capable of. Piece of mind for me. Then Im gun ho about jumping again. So hence the questions I cant ask my instructors in my absence of the DZ. Out of my whopping 18 jumps they were all stand up, some walked out of, some I had to run out of (my rear riser pattern and landing, toggles in hand of course). I never fell down. I know I will sometime. Is it frowned upon to PLF on purpose? I can roll out of a fall well from skateboarding and mountain biking relatively unscaved with some bumps and bruises, not afraid to fall. I even set up a zip line in my climbing harness that I can rapell down to the ground with a foward descending motion to practice PLFing, rolled out well with legs and knees together. Just wondering if anyone practiced PLFs under canopy when they were in a calm state so when you're in the "oh shit" moment it comes easier under stress. Also, wondering if anyone explores their outs on foot and practices landing out (having someone follow you land)? I read somewhere on here about new veggitation (spelling?) growing landing in farmland outs, so Im aware of that now. Again, the "oh shit" stress factor of having to land out would be lessened, I feel, if I had done it in a controlled environment once or twice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #2 June 24, 2011 If anybody gives you shit about doing a PLF on a jump because you want to practice them, tell them to shut the fuck up. That's one of the smartest things you can do, imho, for the very reasons you stated. I know the canopy course you'll be taking, since I put it together and help teach it. You will be practicing PLF's in the canopy course. You will also do a jump in which you leave the plane 2 miles out and have to work to make it back, choosing your outs along the way and landing out if you can't make it back (so far, everybody has made it back). You'll be amazed at how much confidence doing that jump will give you when faced with a long spot in the future. The primary out landing areas at Davis (the barn and the field just to the east of the gun club and main landing area) are easily walked, and that is a REALLY good idea. You can also choose to land at the barn if you leave the plane north of the dz. It's a perfect field to practice an "off" landing on, since it was used as the student landing area for many years. And usually someone sees you landing over there and will send the van to come get you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 65 #3 June 24, 2011 I would also add landing down wind.... Too many have died thinking that into the wind was the only way, regardless how high they were when they turned into the wind. Most of the time, you can land down wind standing up. Occasionally you might slide or do a PLF, BUT, (no pun intended) no one reads about you in the incident reports!Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #4 June 24, 2011 QuoteOut of my whopping 18 jumps they were all stand up, some walked out of, some I had to run out of (my rear riser pattern and landing, toggles in hand of course). I never fell down. Do I understand correctly that you are flying and flaring your canopy using rear risers?Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerseyShawn 0 #5 June 24, 2011 Yes flying with rears until final turn, then flared with toggles. Sorry of I made it sound like I flared with rears. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #6 June 24, 2011 Just curious - why fly your pattern with rears? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerseyShawn 0 #7 June 24, 2011 QuoteJust curious - why fly your pattern with rears?Just to see how it affected my pattern in case a broken steering line. The 3 previous jumps I did I opened at 9k, last out, to play with my canopy. Stalling with toggles and rears (trying to), turning full 360s watching my alti to see how much I dropped with a toggle turn compared to rear riser turns and such. Ive done my half braked pattern and landing already, crosswind landing, landed on target a few times (within a couple feet). Just trying to know my canopy is why I tried the rears pattern. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerseyShawn 0 #8 June 24, 2011 Thanks for the info skybytch, the class sounds like fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grannyinthesky 0 #9 June 24, 2011 It is fun and you learn a lot. I've taken the class and would do it again. "safety first... and What the hell..... safety second, Too!!! " ~~jmy POPS #10490 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #10 June 24, 2011 For some of us old farts "practicing" PLF's was an option, it was survival. There have been many times over the years after leaving rounds behind that I've dropped into a PLF when things were looking a little rough. Setting up a zip line is a little over the top. But it's good you've figured out that PLF is an important skill. The only reason not to do one for fun and practice on a real jump is if you'll be getting someone elses rig dirty for no reason. If your renting a rig you might check with the owner. If you need to do it by all means do. If your rolling around for fun some might ask you to do it with your own rig. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #11 June 24, 2011 Do you still practice how to ride a bicycle?How PLF is different? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyper 0 #12 June 24, 2011 QuoteOk, to start Im not going to jump again til August, after my first canopy class (in the wake of canopy incidents), I need to know what my canopy is capable of. Piece of mind for me. Then Im gun ho about jumping again. So hence the questions I cant ask my instructors in my absence of the DZ. Out of my whopping 18 jumps they were all stand up, some walked out of, some I had to run out of (my rear riser pattern and landing, toggles in hand of course). I never fell down. I know I will sometime. Is it frowned upon to PLF on purpose? I can roll out of a fall well from skateboarding and mountain biking relatively unscaved with some bumps and bruises, not afraid to fall. I even set up a zip line in my climbing harness that I can rapell down to the ground with a foward descending motion to practice PLFing, rolled out well with legs and knees together. Just wondering if anyone practiced PLFs under canopy when they were in a calm state so when you're in the "oh shit" moment it comes easier under stress. Also, wondering if anyone explores their outs on foot and practices landing out (having someone follow you land)? I read somewhere on here about new veggitation (spelling?) growing landing in farmland outs, so Im aware of that now. Again, the "oh shit" stress factor of having to land out would be lessened, I feel, if I had done it in a controlled environment once or twice. in my time PLF was mandatory because of the round canopies and significant vertical speed. once i switched to square canopy I was surprised of how soft the lendings can be... by saying that square canopies give far less opportunity (or urge) to train PLF's... and probably is that the reason ppl got injured on the jumps where a simple soft PLF would save their health... the solution? I don't know really. Youngsters of the present day put the thrill too far above safety. It's social and not skydiving issue. edit: Appearance is becoming more important than safety. Rolling is kind of inferior to standing position... not to mention the possible teasing you might get because of your dirty jump suit... :D maybe it´s better to stay vertical and clean even with some medical record than being dirty from rolling in the dust. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #13 June 24, 2011 QuoteYes flying with rears until final turn, then flared with toggles. Sorry of I made it sound like I flared with rears. Not sure I see the benefit, especially at 18 jumps. But hey, what do I know?Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #14 June 24, 2011 QuoteDo you still practice how to ride a bicycle?Wink How PLF is different? Your analogy doesn't work. Try, try again. PLF"s are a survival skill. Since Scott Miller thought they were important enough to put in his course, and he's got lots more canopy related experience than you or I combined will ever have, we practice PLF's in the course. The standard PLF probably isn't the best choice when someone flying a highly loaded canopy fucks up, but they still work great for keeping bones intact for those who fly more conservative loadings - ie most novice jumpers, at whom the course is aimed. Since many of them are still learning proper flare technique, the ability to do a good PLF can keep them jumping instead of crutching. They are also for not dying when everything goes completely to shit. A good PLF could reduce the number of injuries you sustain in a two out landing, or even at impact after a canopy collision. You are, of course, free to scoff. You'd be providing more to the world if you told us what is better than a PLF and why instead.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,164 #15 June 24, 2011 I'm all in favor of practicing PLF's. My (repeatedly) stated opinion is that it's one's most commonly used emergency procedure, and it's one for which there really isn't a backup safety device. I'm ready to PLF on every jump, and decide if I'm going to stand up at the last minute. That's a mindset change from deciding to stand up on every jump, and deciding at the last minute to PLF. That turns a standup into an unexpected success, rather than turning a PLF into an unexpected failure. And no one has ever given me shit (of course, I'm like really old ). But, ya know, it's worked so far (knock wood). I've walked away from some awfully hard landings. Hopefully I won't have any more really hard landings (I no longer jump a Safire 1, or in high winds), but I just don't know until the last minute. I also really, really like the idea of planning an out landing. It's kind of like having you drive over a piece of lumber in the MSF motorcycle class -- practice a skill like that in a controlled environment, and it loses its fear factor when it's an uncontrolled situation. Wendy P. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nebug 0 #16 June 24, 2011 PLFs are an essential skill for staying out of the emergency room. I don't have a lot of jumps like others, but I do have over 250 jumps on rounds. I was too fat even back in the day(60s/early 70s). I jumped a C-9 (28' milsurplus canopy)which meant I made big dents in the ground every jump but I never got hurt because I learned how to PLF really well. Even rode a 24' unmodified reserve a couple times. Haven't got hurt on squares either despite some abrupt arrivals. Don't ever let someone dis you for developing survival skills. That's how you keep jumping even when you're an old toad like me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #17 June 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteYes flying with rears until final turn, then flared with toggles. Sorry of I made it sound like I flared with rears. Not sure I see the benefit, especially at 18 jumps. But hey, what do I know? The benefit is learning about canopy flight and control. Good stuff, I say.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #18 June 24, 2011 QuoteNot sure I see the benefit, especially at 18 jumps. Comfort, confidence and experience flying the canopy without benefit of toggles. Should he ever lose a toggle. he's more likely to land what he has instead of chopping it because flying the canopy solely on rears is one of the tools in his toolbox. Shawn - Just caught that you don't plan to jump until the course. Highly recommend that you abandon that plan and get your butt out to the dz. The reasons I suggest this - Considering your experience level, the canopies you are flying and where you are supposed to land, you are at less risk under canopy than someone with 100 jumps on a 1.0+ loaded canopy landing in the main landing area. Novices are required to land in the student field at Davis so you don't have to deal with the additional canopy traffic (chaos) in the main landing area. The people you need to be worried about under canopy won't be landing in the student field, and they are generally on the ground long before you are on your downwind. Another reason is currency. If you wait until August, you won't be current. If you aren't current, you'll have to do a recurrency jump before you can do the course. And then there's the amount you can learn while standing on the ground talking to people and watching loads land... There's a boogie going on this weekend. You should be there, even if you don't plan to jump. You will learn far more about skydiving than you will sitting in front of the computer, and you'll meet a lot of people that you may be jumping with in the future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #19 June 24, 2011 Quote Just trying to know my canopy is why I tried the rears pattern. I like the way you think! IMO too many people are scared to do anything other than what they have always done with their canopies (ie. fly back, spiral, two turns and flare). There is a limit to what you can learn that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #20 June 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteYes flying with rears until final turn, then flared with toggles. Sorry of I made it sound like I flared with rears. Not sure I see the benefit, especially at 18 jumps. But hey, what do I know? The benefit is learning about canopy flight and control. Good stuff, I say. Yeah, I know. Just seems at this point he would be better off learning what the canopy will do with toggles and should BE PAYING ATTENTION TO WHERE HE'S FLYING. I get that we need youngins' to know how to fly with risers, but.... this guy clearly stated he has 18 jumps and flew the canopy with rears until flare time. I'm thinking once he got to pattern altitude he might've wanted to be using toggles and stop experimenting with control inputs, but as I said. "what do I know"?Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerseyShawn 0 #21 June 24, 2011 Hey Chuckers, Every landing I ever did was within 60-70 feet in the center of my landing area whether from the north or south. I make sure an instructor watches every landing I do so far. All have said I set up the pattern correctly and gave me permission to try rear riser pattern as well as my half braked landing, ect. I opened high on both of those so there was no traffic because I didn't know where it would put me. Now I know if I ever have to use my rears Im going to go out a bit farther on my rears and to adjust to the best of my abilities to avoid obstacles if I get in a tight spot in my landing area or an off landing. No one is saving my life up there except me. Im better equipped now. I wouldnt of tried it the first time if I was in traffic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #22 June 24, 2011 Quote Hey Chuckers, Every landing I ever did was within 60-70 feet in the center of my landing area whether from the north or south. I make sure an instructor watches every landing I do so far. All have said I set up the pattern correctly and gave me permission to try rear riser pattern as well as my half braked landing, ect. I opened high on both of those so there was no traffic because I didn't know where it would put me. Now I know if I ever have to use my rears Im going to go out a bit farther on my rears and to adjust to the best of my abilities to avoid obstacles if I get in a tight spot in my landing area or an off landing. No one is saving my life up there except me. Im better equipped now. I wouldnt of tried it the first time if I was in traffic. Well sh*t fire and save the Para-Commanders! Give this kid extra credit and send him forward. Geez it's nice to see someone doing it right. And that's "Mr." Chuckers to you, Skippy.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerseyShawn 0 #23 June 24, 2011 Hi Skybytch, I will take the advise to stay current. Was actually missing jumping already when I made the decision to wait. Already planned on being at the boogie on Sunday. Hopefully I can find a spot to set up a couple chairs by the landing area and watch peoples landings for the better part of the day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #24 June 24, 2011 +10My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #25 June 24, 2011 I don't think you need to fall down on your real landings to practice a PLF. Try doing your stand up landings in the PLF position, feet and knees together, knees slightly bent. The body position is the critical thing. On an extremely hard landing, the roll will 90% take care of itself. You can practice off a platform some if you like. As far as practicing landing out? Just work on landing accurately in your safe landing area. Accuracy and being able to maneuver your canopy while in brakes are the skills that will help you in off landings. The PLF gives you the best chance of escaping injury. Intentionally landing in sketchy areas has an increase in risk. Better to build your skill sets safely for the day it accidentally happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
