Accident - Last Night?

[TomAiello 26]

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...I remember...

Your memory appears to be faulty, actually. There are several factual inaccuracies there.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

http://calgary.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=ca-base-jumper20050404

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Extreme sport jumper charged with mischief

Last Updated Apr 4 2005 08:40 AM MDT
CBC News

CALGARY – A man who jumped off the Canada Trust building with a parachute last week has been charged with mischief.

The 42-year-old man was charged Saturday, two days after his stunt went wrong and landed him in hospital with non-life-threatening pelvic, abdominal and back injuries.

The man, a paragliding instructor and helicopter pilot from British Columbia, will appear in provincial court on May 31 to face charges of mischief causing danger to life and mischief to property over $5,000.

Calgary police were called to the Canada Trust building at about 11:10 p.m. Thursday, and found the man lying on top of a pedestrian walkway.

A wind gust apparently pushed him back against the 33-storey building after he jumped off its top southwest corner, causing him to break a 24th-storey window before falling onto the walkway.

Damage is estimated at $10,000.

BASE (building, antennae, span, earth) jumping is an extreme sport that involves leaping from a fixed object, such as a building, cliff or bridge, with a parachute.

The really worrisome thing here is the charge of "mischief causing danger to life."

Under the applicable criminal code, this carries a potential penalty of life imprisonment:

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Punishment: (2) Every one who commits mischief that causes actual danger to life is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for life.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

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How do you develop the awareness, familiarity and ability to react during deployment that a switched-on skydiver with a few hundred jumps should have, by paragliding?

I think this is a very important point that hasn't really been considered enough.

Paragliding can teach canopy skills. But the most important (read: dangerous) part of a BASE jump is during and immediately after opening. Is skydiving the best way to learn to deal with deployments? Or is it really a "must learn by doing in BASE" kind of thing?

I also wonder how a paraglider's experience dealing with collapses and the like can translate. There are obviously skills developed there that may have some transfer value into managing a canopy during deployment. But how much transfer value I don't know.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[secretguest 0]

Actually Tom, what you and your little crew of whiners consider to be productive really isn't. Most base jumpers but the select few on this forum know this. That's why almost everybody who base jumps never post here. Everyone thinks that these places are for idiots. You guys probably have no idea what most jumpers think of this place because they won't say it to your face. These forums are good for a few laughs and to try and express your authority and to make few enemies. That's about it. I thought differently when I first started posting here. Thought it would be educational and good way to meet other jumpers but its not. You have to be on Tom's team of Nerdlingers in order to not get banned and to even be able to have a post stay up. Of course nobody will even read this since Tom will just delete it.

[TomAiello 26]

Shane,

If you persist in creating additional logins to bypass the forum ban, I will delete all of your logins.

I have banned your IP address from posting in this forum for 14 days.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

Ok, now that I've spent a bunch of my time doing the babysitting chores, let me try to form some real thoughts on the actual topic.

I see several issues that might be related, but not necessarily.

The issues that don't really relate to this incident so much (I'll leave those for now, but I think they might be interesting topics of discussion for other threads):

1) Effect of sponsorship and high profile jumps, and specifically the influence of Red Bull on BASE.
2) Preparation of non-skydivers (specifically paragliders) for BASE
3) Overall effect on BASE of an influx of non-skydivers into the sport, as a result of a commercial operation aimed at this end



Issues that may be related to this incident, but semi-independent of each other:


Relating to the jumper:

1) The jumpers level of skill and preparation at the time of the accident

I have no idea what the jumper's overall skill set was like prior to the accident. Had he properly set his DBS? Had he practiced object avoidance? We don't have the answers to these questions (and won't, until and unless he provides them). I won't speculate on whether or not he was adequately prepared for this jump, but will say that I expect his level of canopy skill would have been higher than that of most BASE jumpers at his relative level of BASE experience (due to his extensive paragliding experience). Perhaps if anyone knows whether or not he had drilled object avoidance, they can shed some light on this.


2) The jumpers level of skill and experience relative to the jump

In general, I'd say that a jumper with less than 100 jumps is unlikely to have adequate low, solid object experience to be soloing (with ground crew, in this case) a building. While I can't say for certain, I'd suspect that this particular jump may have been an over-reaching of the jumpers skill set at the time.


3) The jumpers judgment in undertaking the jump

This relates to (3), above. If the jumpers skill set was inadequate to the technical demands of the jump, did he exercise poor judgment in making the decision to exit? Again, it's hard to say without a better idea of the jumpers skill set.



Relating to the jumpers formal BASE training and education:

1) The FJC instructor's teaching of technical skills to the jumper

Honestly, I don't think this was a problem. As far as I can tell (both from observation and gathering information from others), the FJC teaching of this jumper on the technical aspects of BASE was fully up to the accepted level of first jump courses standard in the industry. I don't think that there was any inadequacy in the jumper's FJC preparation, or at least no more so than is the case with anyone else passing through our current FJC system (my thoughts on the adequacy of our dominant training scheme are another matter, for another discussion). Whatever the level of the jumpers skill at the time of the accident, his technical BASE skils when completing his formal instruction were at least on par with those of any other beginning jumper at that level.



2) The ethical and "approach to BASE" transfer (conscious or unconscious) from student to teacher

I think this is a greatly overlooked aspect of BASE training. We all carry around attitudes imparted by our interactions with others. Our attitudes about BASE are often greatly formed by the attitudes of our initial instructor. Instructors who push the limits, ignore the evolved ethical standards, or whatever, are more likely to teach students who do the same (note that I personally believe this works in reverse, too). In this case, the student was taught in a setting that encouraged pushing the limits (some students in this FJC have, for example, performed unpacked jumps as early as their 3rd jump, and students have also been encouraged to make some relatively poor ethical choices in their selection of jumps during the FJC). I do believe that these factors may have contributed to this incident, although to what extent is unclear. Every student will be pre-disposed to various behaviors, and influences imparted by their instructor only go so far. From all reports (and from my personal observations), this was a case of the pre-disposition and the imparted attitudes reinforcing each other to help shape the new jumpers approach to, and path forward in, the sport.


3) Actual specifics of this accident:

Truthfully, I don't think these are particularly important to the underlying issues, but it is my understanding that the 20-30 mph winds reported in this thread disagree with the report of the jumper. I believe that the jumper reported wind had died off prior to exit, and that it was light enough to most likely not be a factor in causing the 180. At any rate, real discussion of the mechanics of the accident probably ought to wait until the jumper can give us an actual firsthand account of the accident (should he choose to do so).


I'll try to write more later. I've just noticed that this thread looks like it needs more moderating, which reduces the amount of time I can actually spend communicating.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Treejumps 0]

Since I only got back on here this morning I'm sure I missed the really good jabs at me. No worries though, the misses gave me a briefing. I fully expected to be flamed over this. When people cannot refute an argument they resort to name calling to pull you off topic. I think that this is important enough to becalled a few names over.

I got an PM from someone asking if I thought I was god (no) and why do I care? I guess the whole problem is that I DO care. I care about BASE as a sport, I care about people being introduced to something that without proper preparation they cannot even fully assess the risks, let alone hope to do well at.

I belive very strongly that teaching a FJC (even a good because as Tom points out and I have no reason to beleive otherwise that Miles teaches a technically good course) to whoffos is simply a bad idea.

I have no idea what actually caused the accident, body position, bad wind, bad luck, who knows. I do know that had Scott taken the time to make the reccomended 150 skydives, he would have been better off. If you disaggree with that, post your point of view. If you thinkt that marketing BASE to whuffos is cool, then tell me why.

As I said before, this is just my opinion. After 7 years of base jumping I feel that I am a stakeholder in what happens to the sport. I want to keep doing this for a long time, and I wnat to help others from making avoidable mistakes. I'm not against anyone getting into BASE, but I do have strong feelings baout doing it correctly.

Cya.

[460 0]

I had a bad BASE accident in 1997. I shattered my femur and I could have died. I don't think it would have happened if I had been more current and more experienced in canopy control, that I could and should have learned in a skydiving environment. At the time, I had 133 base jumps and ~80 skydives.

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[chachi 0]

^^ I think it takes a lot to be that honest to yourself and about yourself, thanks for posting.

[Faber 0]

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I think it takes a lot to be that honest to yourself and about yourself, thanks for posting.

Most injuryes happens becours of the pilot(inkluding my injury),only thing to do is to learn by the mistake and only by looking towards yourself you can jump safly again.
If you blame evrything else for your injury you probaly dont have a clue about what happened to you(whith small exeptions ofcourse)

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[BASE813 0]

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I think it takes a lot to be that honest to yourself and about yourself, thanks for posting.

Most injuryes happens becours of the pilot(inkluding my injury),only thing to do is to learn by the mistake and only by looking towards yourself you can jump safly again.
If you blame evrything else for your injury you probaly dont have a clue about what happened to you(whith small exeptions ofcourse)

I got injured because I fucked up.........

[tommyh 0]

I think that jaapsuter made a really good point in an earlier post (sorry, I don't know how to quote you here). He stated the importance of discussing non fatal incidents and I totally agree. In my opinion, analyzing the non fatal ones are going to provide a lot more info. because A) There is a heck of a lot more of those than the fatal ones and B) the person involved in the incident has lived to tell about it. Therefore I would like to encourage everyone to openly discuss incidents and problems in their base life. I also think that a formal way of reporting non fatal incidents would help. does such a thing exist? should we create one? sorry if this is a little off topic.

[BASE813 0]

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I also think that a formal way of reporting non fatal incidents would help. does such a thing exist? should we create one? sorry if this is a little off topic.

I tried to do this with my accident report, and EvilIvan also did the same after seeing my report - but I did not get any feed back on whether my report was worth doing. In the end I guess people either thought "why bother?" or thought I was just trying to get attention.

I would love to read accident reports similar to mine to find out more information on how accidents are actually happening and the reasons behind them and then perhaps make analysis of them.

I believe that most accidents are jumpers fault and would like to know if the same mistakes are being made time and time again and perhaps find a common factor.....But maybe I look into things too much........

[JaapSuter 0]

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I tried to do this with my accident report, and EvilIvan also did the same after seeing my report - but I did not get any feed back on whether my report was worth doing.

I just looked that thread up again, and I saw a lot of positive replies. I'd post a link here, but don't want to make it too easy for the media (they're on here).

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In the end I guess people either thought "why bother?" or thought I was just trying to get attention.

I highly doubt anybody thought you did it to get attention.

The number of people that thought your accident report was useful doesn't matter. It's the number of accidents it helped avoid. If there is only one base-jumper that slowed down because of your write-up, isn't it already worth it then?

[QuickDraw 0]

I love reading your posts Jaap, your wise beyond your years.

I'd swear you were Tom Aiello if it wasn't for the name.

-- Hope you don't die. --

I'm fucking winning

[JaapSuter 0]

Rest assured I'm a total ass in real life.

It's a shame that posting whore-dom doesn't translate into base-jumping skills.

[tommyh 0]

I can see where people could be turned off by the idea of posting their incidents in a general base forum. A lot of people probably don't want to put their story up for the public to read with the reason being that they don't want to come off as someone talking about their bad-ass harrowing survival epic. maybe people would be more receptive to the idea if there was some sort of system for reporting that was independant from the base zone. Maybe a seperate forum on blinc? Or maybe an entire website not unlike nick's? If somebody had the ambition to start something like that it would have the potential to be very helpful, especially to a novice like myself. Just ideas...

[Faber 0]

look at blinc i think we had a loong post once about peoples fuck ups,inkluding mine and 813´s.. sorry cant borther to dig it up but do a search there and youll find some.

Mac i think you fucked up,and did so becourse to get the attention,now you kicked me in the balls by your latest edit which i cant dublicate as i shipped YOU my only 9.0 vers of pinnecal,and i need a tool from there.
Hope you´ll be forced to listen to classic drum n bass the rest of your life...

oh the above is a personal attack on mac i hate the bastard,he even smell worse than i do

(ps mac,im not much online at this point,could you mail me a copy of the above and the good qually vid you made)

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[unformed 0]

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If there is only one base-jumper that slowed down because of your write-up, isn't it already worth it then?

Rest assured that as much as I really want to start base jumping, the more incident reports I hear, the more I'm willing to wait until my canopy control and accuracy is perfect.

Evn though one part of me really wants to go Idaho and take FJC as soon as I can, another part of me is telling me to instead spend my money on jumping and perfecting this before I go onto someething even more dangerous....

I'm sure there are quite a few people reading almost all posts; we're just not responding since there's really nothing for us to say...

This ad space for sale.

[evilivan 0]

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I can see where people could be turned off by the idea of posting their incidents in a general base forum.

....which is why I only offered mine to people who PM'd or emailed me... But I do think its a good idea.

"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

[evilivan 0]

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I love reading your posts Jaap, your wise beyond your years.

I'd swear you were Tom Aiello if it wasn't for the name.

....dammit, there's a joke in here somewhere....




Quickdraw, I think I have some of your stuff that Faber left behind - looks like a couple of dildos and some butt plugs. PM me your address so I can return them...

"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

[leroydb 0]

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A lot of people probably don't want to put their story up for the public to read with the reason being that they don't want to come off as someone talking about their bad-ass harrowing survival epic.

do i really sound like that? lol

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[QuickDraw 0]

Faber said they were too small for him, even after wrapping all the gaffer tape around them.

I'll see if i can get down that way sometime soon and pick em up.

-- Hope you don't die. --

I'm fucking winning

[KevinMcGuire 0]

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I love reading your posts Jaap, your wise beyond your years.

I'd swear you were Tom Aiello if it wasn't for the name.

....dammit, there's a joke in here somewhere....

How about, "Get you tongue out of that mans ass"

[cygnusbase 0]

I would like to ask a fairly technical question with regards to this incident and the weather native to Calgary. I happened to be up that particular evening here in Calgary while my daughter had a severe temperature and so I saw the relatively varying wind conditions of the whole nite and noted them because that's what people who love/hate wind do when all you think about is where will you be standing on your next jump.

The city of calgary is notorious for it's chinook conditions and from wedensday to friday there was a chinook arch covering the city. As 587 and crwper will attest this can create an interesting instability in the region with respect to the existance of wind or lack there of. However, over lunch time discussion with crwper i asked the question...IN a city that can have rather unpredictable winds during chinook type activity, if you are standing atop of a building and feel nothing for wind is there a possibility that the bernouilli effects can bring higher velocity winds at the midpoint of the buildings. I guess what I am asking the forum is how much experience is out there to suggest that you can have much greater winds in and amongst the buildings as compared to what may seem like a little on top? Given the recorded conditions as listed in crwpers posting with 20km/h or so at the airport 10 km to the NE of the jumppoint and 9 km/h 10 km NW of the jump point there was evidently wind. The following morning recorded winds gusting 50km if I am not mistaken, Do any of the more experienced building jumpers have anything to say and does this lend hand to why jumping buildings in a city environement brings more caution with respect to wind conditions.

My feelings with respect to this incident is that I feel that it sucks when any of my brother or sisters of BASE get hurt in the activity, regardless of where the jury will assess the blame. or where the political environement is taking the popularity vote. That said, my favorite aspect of BASE is that it governs itself accordingly and only allows for so much poor judgement or repeated ignorance. The beauty of that aspect is that the truth of this incident can bring awareness but not righteousness and the only thing beyond that is your next jump! C-YA!

Kris
CYGNUSBASE