TomAiello 25
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Zennie 0
My first BASE rig was (is) a pin rig... a Vertigo Warlock. I had a spare for a while which was a very old reactor and I've helped folks with several velcro rigs.
For me the big issue I saw as a newbie wasn't so much bridle routing (yes you'd have to be pretty stupid to mis-route it) as closing technique.
For a long time I was having pretty chronic heading performance problems. I tried all sorts of things and finally went back to the packing tapes.
Turns out, like you note, I was doing what I was familiar with from skydiving... I would route the pullup cord through the closing flap grommets and yank it shut... skydiver-style. Very good way to distort the packjob.
Now I work the flaps together around the packjob first, sort of like what a person does with a velcro container.
So I guess my point is, I can see how the odds of distorting a packjob may be decreased if one uses a velcro container... since you can't do the pullup cord yank thingy... but that's about it.
I'm personally glad I got a pin rig.
- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon
For me the big issue I saw as a newbie wasn't so much bridle routing (yes you'd have to be pretty stupid to mis-route it) as closing technique.
For a long time I was having pretty chronic heading performance problems. I tried all sorts of things and finally went back to the packing tapes.
Turns out, like you note, I was doing what I was familiar with from skydiving... I would route the pullup cord through the closing flap grommets and yank it shut... skydiver-style. Very good way to distort the packjob.
Now I work the flaps together around the packjob first, sort of like what a person does with a velcro container.
So I guess my point is, I can see how the odds of distorting a packjob may be decreased if one uses a velcro container... since you can't do the pullup cord yank thingy... but that's about it.
I'm personally glad I got a pin rig.
- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon
I also agree that pins are easier to pack. If your pack job starts to expand while placing it into a velcro rig it could end up a wrestling match. With pins, trash pack all you want to, it will close on the first try. If anything, velcro forces one to pack more neatly, which for many people makes them more comfortable. BTW, if your PC comes out of the pouch when you are at 100' on an A above a field of solid ice, your pins will pop. This cant happen with velcro, so for beginners, velcro still makes good sense.
Cya.
Cya.
Zennie 0
QuoteBTW, if your PC comes out of the pouch when you are at 100' on an A above a field of solid ice, your pins will pop.
Had this happen early on.
My PC slipped out of the pouch during an A climb, caught wind, popped my bottom pin and next thing I'm just trying to keep my canopy from falling out of my container.
Lesson learned... if you have a pin rig, bring along a pullup cord... you never know when you'll need it.
Other lesson learned... you don't need to climb down 600 feet juggling yourself and a misbhaving rig... that's what that little stash bag is for.
- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon
QuoteLesson learned... if you have a pin rig, bring along a pullup cord... you never know when you'll need it.
I kind of thought it was standard practice to keep at least one pull-up cord with your rig at all times (I store one in my leg strap housing ... or whatever it is called).
As far as pin versus velcro. Obviously a newbie like myself doesn't have a whole lot of experience with the two. But thanks to an experienced jumper who lent me a velcro rig to practice packing with and the fact that BR built me a really nice Vertex 2-pin container. I have had some experience packing both and my BR 2-pin container hasn't been an issue (yet) as all of my jumps (only five unsupervised pack jobs) did open on heading. But I can see that a sloppy 2-pin pack job can be distorted if one is not paying attention to what they are doing.
Anyway ... I am very happy with my BR 2-pin container and my 2nd rig (when it comes time to buying one) will also be a 2-pin container. Nothing against the velcro people, but I like the pin closure rigs.
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
BASE813 0
i originally bought a velcro rig for my first rig, and have recently bought a pin rig for my second rig.
my thoughts (for what its worth)
if your freefalling in the lower end in your early jumps then the consistancy you get from velcro with your inconsistany with your pack jobs is a good thing - you need to work your way down and find out what your container is doing in short delays - but generally your early pack jobs are so inconsistant that it will have more of an effect on a pin rig than an velcro rig on pull force pressure..............
correct me if im wrong.........
my thoughts (for what its worth)
if your freefalling in the lower end in your early jumps then the consistancy you get from velcro with your inconsistany with your pack jobs is a good thing - you need to work your way down and find out what your container is doing in short delays - but generally your early pack jobs are so inconsistant that it will have more of an effect on a pin rig than an velcro rig on pull force pressure..............
correct me if im wrong.........
QuoteWith velcro its easier to pack
I disagree.
My Warlock pin-rig is more tolerant of packing variations than my Stunts Extreme velcro rig. With the velcro if I make my top S-fold too high it starts to peel open when I roll my shoulders in. This doesn't happen on the pin rig and the fabric placement doesn't make a noticeable difference in pin tension.
In theory I could use brute force and a pull-up cord to close the pin rig side flaps instead of holding the canopy and folding the flaps into position (could almost close without a pull-up cord); although I could also use a skydiving pack job that's not re-dressed. Learning to properly close a pin rig isn't a big deal compared to picking up the rest of the pack job.
Pins open faster and more reliably than velcro. check it out for your self. lay a packed velcro ring on the floor next to a packed pin rig. Grab both by the bridle and slowly pull at the same time. the pin rig will open way before the velcro rig. In fact you will probably lift he velcro rig off the floor if the velcro is in decent shape.
Regarding twisting the pack job as you close the pin rig, consider this. The first step in avoiding a problem is to first acknowledge it's possiblity, then simply figure out a method to avoid it, continue to refine it and thats all there is to it
Regarding twisting the pack job as you close the pin rig, consider this. The first step in avoiding a problem is to first acknowledge it's possiblity, then simply figure out a method to avoid it, continue to refine it and thats all there is to it
base428 1
A few years ago, pins meant DEATH! Velcro was the only thing out there.
Only skydivers used pin rigs on a BASE jump.
Pins still make me a little nervous, although I do have a pin rig.
PS. The hardest rig to pack is a pin rig with open corners in my opinion. Easiest one is a round.
Only skydivers used pin rigs on a BASE jump.
Pins still make me a little nervous, although I do have a pin rig.
PS. The hardest rig to pack is a pin rig with open corners in my opinion. Easiest one is a round.
(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only
TomAiello 25
QuoteMy Warlock pin-rig is more tolerant of packing variations than my Stunts Extreme velcro rig.
That pretty much sums it up.
You're going to get a fairer comparison from two rigs from the same manufacturer, or at least both from mainstream BASE gear manufacturers. Comparing the Stunts X-treme to a Vertigo rig is a bit like saying you like American cars better than European ones because your Viper handles better than your Yugo.
Faber 0
Quotea bit like saying you like American cars better than European ones because your Viper handles better than your Yugo.
Buit it does.. but take a Volvo or even Skoda,then the american will get some contest...
By the velcro vs Pin rig thing.
I will anyday preffere a pin rig,it opens way before a velcro(if the velcro is a bit desent as Kevin said).
But its all personal, i know a guy(yes he is a cracy UK guy) that happy freefall 230ft whth a velcro rig,unvented canopy and a 42 pc.. now im not into that,but he is happy about it,and what i saw it works
I think that velcro and pin rigs closes equal,they both have their own ways to be done..
But as said i will anyday prefere a pinrig vs a velcro
Stay safe
Stefan Faber
I agree with Drew, My Warlock is the easiest to pack of any container I've owned, Velcro/pin/Wonderhawg with a Pursuit 215. With a neat packjob, you shouldn't need the pullup cord or have similar velcro problems....Hank Caylor
"It takes a big man to cry, it takes an even bigger man to make that big man cry"
base311 0
QuoteA few years ago, pins meant DEATH! Velcro was the only thing out there.
funny t hing I took a 6 year break in BASE... came back and everyone was jumping pin rigs and going stowed... talk about turning everything upside down. Just got the pin rig a few years ago... still not entirely certain how I feel about pins and going stowed (though I do...).
gardner
JesseP 0
I think it is certainly true that pins open consistently faster than velcro. I've done 100 jumps on a reactor 4, and frequently freefall under 200 feet with it, but certainly would prefer a pin rig for the low stuff. I took a vertex off a 165ft freefall over solid ground last week and opened reasonably high. I wouldn't have done this jump on my velcro rig (not because it wouldn't work, but because I see a higher risk for potential problems ie, staggered opening with the shrivel flap).
When I stared most of the advice I was given was to get a velcro rig first. While I am happy with the rig, I now see the advantages of a pin rig over velcro and would prefer one. As for the closing sequence, I think it's easy and not something a beginner needs to worry about overly.
Having said that, the velcro has taken me everywhere so far and has been solid.
When I stared most of the advice I was given was to get a velcro rig first. While I am happy with the rig, I now see the advantages of a pin rig over velcro and would prefer one. As for the closing sequence, I think it's easy and not something a beginner needs to worry about overly.
Having said that, the velcro has taken me everywhere so far and has been solid.
NickDG 23
Some timeline stuff might be helpful when looking at pin and Velcro rigs.
Early BASE jumpers didn’t feel the need for different from the drop zone gear until their abilities started outperforming the stuff being jumped. Progress, at that time, is the measure of going lower and lower. This journey thru sub-terminal velocity is what produced the single canopy Velcro closed BASE container. Master Rigger Jim Handbury, didn’t build the first Velcro closed parachute container, but at the request of Carl Boenish, at Lake Elsinore in 1983, he did build two rigs, that became the parent rigs of the classic Velcro closed BASE containers we have today.
Carl’s dilemma is from talking a friend into tethering a hot air balloon 300-feet over the lake and then realizing his gear, the gear he’d done all his fixed object jumps on (he hadn’t named the sport BASE yet) was way too complicated for the task at hand. These would be round jumps into water. Carl’s skydiving-BASE jumping gear is a dual canopy spring loaded ripcord activated pile of hesitation waiting to happen. He’s two sentences into explaining the situation when Rigger Handbury holds up his hands and says, “I know just what you need.”
The next day he presented Carl with two rigs, the other one being for Jean Boenish. They are single canopy four sided container and harness systems closed by their own bridles. The Velcro part is just two inches wide and didn’t shrivel. As an afterthought Handbury told Carl, “just hold the pilot chutes in your hands.”
The reason experienced BASE jumpers resisted pins, at first, is it seemed like going backwards and they weren’t ready to abandon a rig that saved them countless times. It took until BASE gear manufacturers proved new materials and know-how, gained mostly the hard way, that a current and up-to-date BASE jumper can use a pin rig to advantage in almost every case.
Nick DBASE 194
Early BASE jumpers didn’t feel the need for different from the drop zone gear until their abilities started outperforming the stuff being jumped. Progress, at that time, is the measure of going lower and lower. This journey thru sub-terminal velocity is what produced the single canopy Velcro closed BASE container. Master Rigger Jim Handbury, didn’t build the first Velcro closed parachute container, but at the request of Carl Boenish, at Lake Elsinore in 1983, he did build two rigs, that became the parent rigs of the classic Velcro closed BASE containers we have today.
Carl’s dilemma is from talking a friend into tethering a hot air balloon 300-feet over the lake and then realizing his gear, the gear he’d done all his fixed object jumps on (he hadn’t named the sport BASE yet) was way too complicated for the task at hand. These would be round jumps into water. Carl’s skydiving-BASE jumping gear is a dual canopy spring loaded ripcord activated pile of hesitation waiting to happen. He’s two sentences into explaining the situation when Rigger Handbury holds up his hands and says, “I know just what you need.”
The next day he presented Carl with two rigs, the other one being for Jean Boenish. They are single canopy four sided container and harness systems closed by their own bridles. The Velcro part is just two inches wide and didn’t shrivel. As an afterthought Handbury told Carl, “just hold the pilot chutes in your hands.”
The reason experienced BASE jumpers resisted pins, at first, is it seemed like going backwards and they weren’t ready to abandon a rig that saved them countless times. It took until BASE gear manufacturers proved new materials and know-how, gained mostly the hard way, that a current and up-to-date BASE jumper can use a pin rig to advantage in almost every case.
Nick D
BASE 194
BASE813 0
QuotePins open faster and more reliably than velcro. check it out for your self. lay a packed velcro ring on the floor next to a packed pin rig. Grab both by the bridle and slowly pull at the same time. the pin rig will open way before the velcro rig. In fact you will probably lift he velcro rig off the floor if the velcro is in decent shape.
Regarding twisting the pack job as you close the pin rig, consider this. The first step in avoiding a problem is to first acknowledge it's possiblity, then simply figure out a method to avoid it, continue to refine it and thats all there is to it
I know this to be true as I did do some force testing on velcro and pins - what i was trying to say was that velcro will generally give a more consistant range of pull force compared to pins that can differ quite alot due to inconsistant pack jobs which you will have in your early packing. I much prefer pins for lower jumps and have a smaller pull force with my pin rig - but you can also pack in a way that you can increase this force considerably........... whereas velcro will generally stay the same no matter what shit you throw in the container.......... Also when i said lower freefalls I did not mean the sub200 or 200ft range - i meant in the 250+ft range.............
sorry i know i dont explain myself that well sometime!
I have more thoughts on this issue that you might be interested in but I haven't the time to type it out. I'm on a plane to Norway in just a few hours and have lots of shit to do. Maybe if this thread is still alive when I get back I'll go into it further.
peterk 0
When I first got into BASE, I bought a used velcro-closed Perigee2. I debated in my mind if I wanted a velcro or pin first rig, and ended up with the velcro for the following reasons: My biggest fear was misrouting the bridle on a pin rig and having a total mal. Reasonable? Probably not, but when I got the velcro rig, it made me a little happier knowing that there weren't any pins to lock up the system. The velcro would always rip, (modern ones with a shrivel flap), and I was happy. Simply, it made me comfortable, which for me is the most important thing when I climb over. The velcro were cheaper on the used market, which also helped, and since I didn't know any better, and they both obviously work for what I was going to use it for, I got the velcro. Then, after 25-30 jumps, when I knew I was hooked and wanted a new, fitted rig, there was NO doubt that I wanted a 2-pin rig. I love my Vertigo Warlock. Velcro wears out, it tears when you climb over a rail or structure, and I think it is difficult to close symmetrically. The pins are solid, terminal aerials and wingsuits "need" pins, and they release quickly. Try picking up one of each packed rigs by the bridle. The pin rig will hardly move by the time the pins are popped, the velcro can probably be lifted up off the ground. I've talked to a couple people about it, and when I told them about my misrouting concerns, they asked if I could try to mess it up to demonstrate. I really had to make a mess with the bridle going all over and under flaps for it to lock up. As far as pin tension, and inconsistent pin tension when learning? I've pulled up on the stiffeners, while the pin is in, as hard as I was going to, and they still slide out easily.
In my one-person opinion, pins are the way to go...
In my one-person opinion, pins are the way to go...
---------------
Peter
BASE - The Ultimate Victimless Crime
Peter
BASE - The Ultimate Victimless Crime
NickDG 23
To further illustrate the old school paranoia of pins . . .
#22 Robert Morris, Jr., BASE 275, June 10, 1990
Age: 23
Building Jump (Mellon Bank Building, 792-feet)
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
Total Malfunction and Impact
Robert is jumping a skydiving rig (Wonderhog) with a belly band and an empty reserve container. His curved pin is primed half way and he's using a 52-inch BASE pilot chute. After landing, a previous jumper said he watched Robert go somewhat head down and throw his pilot chute early. Robert then towed his inflated pilot chute to impact. The speculation is he tightened his belly band down (after a final gear check by the jumper who went first) and this put too much tension on the main closing pin. Combined with an early pilot chute throw and the associated lack of snatch force this may have caused the pilot chute in tow. The irony here, according to the first jumper, is they had both recently discussed purchasing Velcro closed BASE containers but that the cost was an issue.
Nick DBASE 194
http://www.basefatalities.info
#22 Robert Morris, Jr., BASE 275, June 10, 1990
Age: 23
Building Jump (Mellon Bank Building, 792-feet)
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
Total Malfunction and Impact
Robert is jumping a skydiving rig (Wonderhog) with a belly band and an empty reserve container. His curved pin is primed half way and he's using a 52-inch BASE pilot chute. After landing, a previous jumper said he watched Robert go somewhat head down and throw his pilot chute early. Robert then towed his inflated pilot chute to impact. The speculation is he tightened his belly band down (after a final gear check by the jumper who went first) and this put too much tension on the main closing pin. Combined with an early pilot chute throw and the associated lack of snatch force this may have caused the pilot chute in tow. The irony here, according to the first jumper, is they had both recently discussed purchasing Velcro closed BASE containers but that the cost was an issue.
Nick D
BASE 194 http://www.basefatalities.info
Point taken. My first "real" BASE rig was a pin rig, and for a long time it was easier for me to pack that rig than any other.
I totally agree with you here. I can't see how it's any easier to misroute a pin bridle than a velcro bridle. They are often going the same way, after all. I've not done any testing, but I'd hazard a guess that a pin rig with a misrouted bridle is more likely to open despite the misrouting than a velcro rig with a misrouting. I've seen pin rigs open (either on jumps or on tables) with the bridles routed top to bottom, bottom to top, out the side, and even with the pins "locked" by a tight bridle over the top).
My experience has been that it's easier to maintain pack job symmetry while closing velcro rigs, both for myself and students. Jumpers who are accustomed to closing skydiving rigs often leverage on the pull up cord to get the container to close. Doing this on the top pin can twist the pack job, right at the open nose cell, and (in my opinion, but based on much observation) cause off headings. I've generally found that it's easier to teach a whole new packing methodology (velcro) than try to modify a behavior that has been ingrained by closing skydiving rigs hundreds or thousands of times.
I'm not saying your wrong. I'm saying I disagree with you, and trying to explain why I disagree.
[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com
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