rynodigsmusic

Very good point, and I often wonder why those humble atheists cant find value in the teachings of Christ and on the flipside, how those who value the teachings of Christ find such arrogance. You may or may not agree that intent can be disguised by both the ear and the mouth. As far as sediment and the earths crust is concerned. Jesus calls himself the Rock for a reason. As I said before, modern science has nothing compared to what the anti christ will have. There are many reasons for people to fall away from the faith, many. So I am sorry that i dont have all the answers your looking for. In any event, both in the scientific realm and the spiritual realm, faith seems to play a big role. "We didn't start the fire"

Im afraid it seems that would be something you would say. Given your posts about beievers at least. So many of you seem to enjoy beating up on the meek. You can call me whatever you like, but what I have spoken on here is the truth as it is reflected in the Gospel. Its not mine, its Jesus'. Im not as interested in "convincing" people as you seem to think, but you are convinced that I am and therefore you trample my testimony as foolish nonsense. I cant help that, but what have you offered any of these conversations? Where is your heart? What do you believe? None of you have done anything but strengthen and sharpen what i believe in Christ. The truth continues to get clearer and clearer in my head, and if that makes me an "elite", i would hope that it is elite enough to transcend Gods love to others. But you are sadly mistaken... I am not the elite. I am just a very gratefu,l poor, and weak man who is/has nothing without God. I wonder what you wouldve said to some of the greatest examples of Christianity throughout history? As someone is feeding the poor in the name of Christ, your in the crowd using the same voice you use in here. I could be wrong, but your not showing me that to be honest. "We didn't start the fire"

I agree with this and can tell it was written with sensativity, but Jesus speaks of casual religious faith all throughout the Gospel, so its no secret to me at least. He says to practice what he preaches, and your comment before seems true enough, that people dont understand who/what Christ is because they dont know what he preached in the first place. But, none of that has an impact on the truth itself which was sealed in its own blood. People can say whatever they like unfortunately, but no one can un-crucify Jesus. We cant look into the deeper revelations of the spirit of God without grace. I know you have reserves as to the continuity of the bible being correctly transcribed throughout the ages, and either it is radically altered, or its not, but it doesnt change the fact that the lessons given to us in Christ are lessons in love. A man can spend a lifetime convinced that he is "going to heaven" based on what he has studied and learned, but if love is not understood and practiced, then the main theme of the Word of God was sadly missed. "We didn't start the fire"

Because the Word is not revealed to everyone... "At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure." The revelations in Christ are for the humble in heart. "We didn't start the fire"

God is the God of the Universe, everything is his creation. Spiritual and Physical, he is the God of the heavens and the earth. Therefore, anything that is revealed in his creation is his creation. The ressurected Jesus you speak of is the first fruit of a newly revealed creation, a creation that is only by faith.. an unimaginative evolution of the minds soul so grand that it transcends this bodily life, and possibly even dimensions not even fathomed. And nature continues to show us that it takes life to make life. Since I know you have read the Gospel, then you know what I am talking about when I say that Jesus said you must be born of water and of spirit... the flesh gives birth to flesh and the spirit to spirit. Your still going to have a god... youll worship it and fight over it and continue to do things to one another that will ulitmately bring forth the end of human existance as we know it. Your still going to have to deal with the evil in the mind of man and his pursuit of glory and legacy ect.... and Jesus already spoke of this very thing. And we have had the ability to reason from the beginning, I think its even instinctive, but, just because someone is undereducated, or even unknowledgeable, doesnt mean they cant understand the deeper benefits (spiritual and physical) in a faith that generates the qualities of a lighter heart. The wisdom of Jesus seems universal and extremely reasonable to me, but we have already determined that revelation cant be found through reason, and that its the other way around. But your entitled to your own opinion of course. "We didn't start the fire"

That was really quite clever. It does give your previous statement impact. The reason I believe it might be a "detriment" is because I already believe I have the seed of faith. It is a gift that Christ gives, but you have to understand how weak it truly is, and not only that, what is its greatest purpose. See, many have faith in many things, and I dont think it is disputable to say there have come good things and bad things from it, but what many miss is that Love resides in faith as well, peace, understanding, comfort, trust, joy, and yes ultimately happiness. But then there is loves responsibility, and that is to give those things in return as much as the heart allows, and this is where the confusion enters. This is where the Word gets misunderstood, this is where grace (the Holy Spirit) discerns everything. There is much to be gained by faith, much more than I can even put into words, as many can testify on here as well... there is something awesome about Gods love. But there are things that make it really uncool with the modern age and todays influences. I believe that if Jesus was to appear (Im not speaking about the second coming) right now and reveal his truth to everyone as he did 2000 years ago, that much of what happened before would happen again. Some would believe, others not. Even if he was performing miracles as before, there would still be doubters. The point is that when it comes to the truth in Heaven,Gods grace is by faith.. To address when Christ will return, the bible is pretty clear that it says inevitably but in Gods time. As it reads to me, many of the things it speaks of are already appearing, and the story of Noah sounds like a great spiritual metaphor for the second coming. Sounds like a fire of overwhelming judgement to me, while I dont think it will be actual fire, I do believe it will be real, like an overflow of torment in the conscience or something... I dont know, but for me, Im sticking with the light. Like bob marley says "We've got a mind of our own, so go to hell if what your thinking isnt right" "We didn't start the fire"

I really thought there was no real point in this whole discussion as we'd each heard all the others points. Then we get this which I have never heard before and would be interested in discussing further. This should probably be in it's own thread.

No. God did not present himself physically to the world, he did it through his creation. Examine the truth, would you even (especially in todays modern technological advancements) believe it was the spirit of God if he did show himself? Jesus warns that the anti christ will have great powers to decieve even the elect... forgive me, but it didnt even take a great power to decieve your mind, and yet you continue to speak adamantly against what was never revealed to you in the first place. I couldnt disagree more. God is not about explanation, he is about revelation. And right now, in this day and age, people would benefit greatly from the true meaning of Christ. "We didn't start the fire"

It looks as if people are getting off track as far as the spirit of God is concerned. I cant find the scripture, but it does say that arguing about stuff like this is fruitless (of course not in those words!) Fruitless nonetheless. So, what have we determined about all this? This is wrong, that is wrong, and living a particular way is the only way to God? Well, this is not the message of the Gospel at all. This is what the Pharisees and the Saducees believed, and the reason they could not recognize the spirit behind the words with which they so fervently "obeyed" Lets start by asking ourselves who did Jesus turn away? Did he turn away the one who denied him 3 times, or the Adulteress, or the sinful Mary Magdalene, or the countless numbers of sinners who came to hear his message? Did Jesus turn anyone away? Scripture leads us to believe that his greatest testimony of judgement was not against the sinner at all, it was against the hypocrite. So, as a follower of Christ what should we focus on? What is right or what is wrong, or should we focus on the God given spirit to love everyone? If any of you read John 16, you'll see that there is only a righteousness that is by faith, and of course, any place in the epistles (Romans, Corin.. Thess) it is the same. And I couldnt find the scriptures, but there is a verse that says something like "we layed no stone in your path so that our message would remain pure in your hearts"... and again, "see, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall". What is a stumbling stone??? Is it sin itself? OR, is it the message that Jesus spoke that reveals there is no righteousness through works, or even strength. Rather, righteousness is by grace and grace alone. We are allowed to come to God, not because we deserve to, but because Christ does. It has been said repeatedly in these forums that changing something, or stopping sin (which the bible says are thoughts as well) is NOT the goal of faith. The goal of faith is to desire God through understanding his desire for us. By the nature of Gods grace, none who have known it will still desire to sin, yet all are sinners (If in fact all have sinned). I have found that no matter how much I desire not to sin, I cannot carry out that desire fully. So, what are we left with? A weak man who relys on the strength of Gods love for life. The one who refutes this will need to examine himself/herself for the seed of hypocrisy. So, Homosexuality is wrong, sex is wrong, adultery is wrong, impure thoughts are wrong, not obeying the sabbath is wrong, stealing is wrong, killing is wrong, speaking bad against his brother, dishonoring mother and father,... used to be eating with unwashed hands, eating certain foods, all sorts of things were used to raise questions of conscience... I for one see a pattern, everything is wrong and most things in our lives are bad, as they relate to the perfect Father of creation, except one thing... love. Our "job" as "servants" of the Lord is to practice love. How is it to Gods glory to condemn everything in everyone? The condemnation for sin is death, the one who condemns beyond death, stands in condemnation as well. Condemning homosexuality as wrong keeps people from the truth in Christ. They are these: "Woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of Heaven in mens faces. You yourself do not enter, nor will let those enter who are trying to." BTW, I am not calling anyone a hypocrite, just presenting the warning as Christ does. "We didn't start the fire"

That makes sense. Either every experience can change you as a person, or absolutely does. I agree with the product of enviornment, but to an extent... it depends on what you define the product as. For example, the enviornment may make you adapt to it (conform), or could make you rebel and inspire revolutionary ideas and actions. In any case, the enviornment of course plays a big role, but its not the tell all in my opinion, again, it depends on what you define the product as. You and I may react very similar to certain situations, and very differently. No way really to know without the benefit of hinesight. "We didn't start the fire"

On the "subject" of God, okay, but what about other subjects? About 10yrs ago I had a dream about the death penalty, and now I am "against" it. I changed my mind sorely on a dream I had. In regards to God, Jesus tells us that God is spirit, he is invisible by nature. Wisdom for example has no physical evidence of existance, but is a great influence in the human mind nonetheless. Wisdom will show you the deep desires of the heart, powerful enough to change the mind, but you'll get no physical evidence of those desires. "We didn't start the fire"

Its funny to me because I believe we are all a bit strange to one another. If everything about everyone was exposed to one another, surely we would all find one grand thing in common. We are all very unique, and very "strange", and our walls are much more thick than we know. Hows this: "anyone who thinks he is normal is the most strange of all." "We didn't start the fire"

I was unaware that I avoided any questions of yours. Why has God not talked to the masses like he used to? He already did this, few listened anyway. His message was to love him with all your heart, and love others with that same love. Love is alive man, either you believe in its power or you dont. I cant answer your question beyond that and JOHN 16. If you read Jn 16 you will see, maybe. If you dont have a bible, go on www.biblegateway.com and use the New International Version (I find it a little easier to read, understanding on the otherhand is not up to me). Merry Christmas "We didn't start the fire"

... I think I like this! "We didn't start the fire"

Sorry, I cant check youtube links here. "We didn't start the fire"

Got it jakee. Lets just test your statement here. What do you believe in? "We didn't start the fire"

All are sinners. Jesus is not about morality, there is only one who is good, he is about LOVE, thats what I believe is the true reason for the season. Love suffers to be known, and joy springs through that suffering. There is a beautiful spirit behind all the "nonsense" at this time of year, I say enjoy it as much as you can. Sorry, couldnt resist! Merry Christmas everyone!!! "We didn't start the fire"

clearly you remember how undereducated I am? Its my fault, I should've gone to school.. and yes I know its not too late... oh well, you guys are just gonna have to cut me some slack in that department. "We didn't start the fire"

I gotta wonder, how you found that pic? and I gotta admit, it is funny. Thats not the bread Jesus was speaking of though! "We didn't start the fire"

The heart has to do with desire. What do you want? Exponentially means powerful. The amount of people has nothing to do with it. It is the spirit within the people that has the power. Basically, the light is appearing brighter. It can be in your mind... some are more curious than others. You arent listening to anything Im saying are you? But knowing whether he is real or not means nothing if you dont have faith that he is good. I have heard this one before. They must teach the spaghetti monster in school or something. But still your missing the goal of faith. Im afraid your mistaken. I felt a connection with the Gospel, it was very pure to me, I took that purity as the truth in my heart... from that, I found all the evidence I need. I have tested my faith against everything I have come across and my mind is consumed with truth and my heart with grace. . I said earlier that many things in other religions have made sense to me. Many sayings and proverbs, philosophys ect... but that all of them contain revelations given in the Gospel. The faith is about discernment. My faith is not against stem cell research. If the religion of Christianity is sorely against it, I would at least listen to the reasons, but ultimately do the right thing. I believe that stem cell research will begin soon. Yes, but also it is the greatest refuge for love. Soon, the spirit of truth will discern the difference between man made and God made "religions". Soon means inevitably. It is revealed through the spirit in the words. "These words are spirit, and they are life" "We didn't start the fire"

No, I just accepted it. The wisdom of life is about the heart, not the mind, but the mind must be present to recognize the heart. "We didn't start the fire"

Used the right way. Christianity is about discernment. Jesus is the truth revealed to the soul of mankind. Man did not create truth, nor did we figure things out, that weren't already true. Wonder for me at least, goes way beyond other planets and just keeping myself alive... way beyond. You sound very open. Honestly, have you even read the Gospel? I find foolish things in most religions, but the Gospel made absolute sense to me. And, according to Jesus, the one who ceases to exist is the one who does not have faith in the ressurection. Makes sense to me... our will to live is so much stronger than our ability. Faith has to be genuine, and that is what hope is for. These are human abilities that many do not use. Life is about the heart, not the mind. There have been plently of examples of strong minds with weak hearts, and visa versa. Hitler may be a good example.(strong mind, weak heart) Jesus is the perfect example of strong heart. "We didn't start the fire"

technology as we know it maybe not, Atom bomb for one, and many other "atrocities" of mankind... But I dont agree with your statement fully. Exploration and Revelation follows Wonder, and God is Wonder. Its no surprise that those qualities exist within the minds of his creation. My mindset is what right do we have to blame what gives us life. I dont believe I have the mindset of "if it works, leave it alone." God is real, I know that, and move deeper into the nature of God, I dont just "leave it alone" Wisdom has allowed Wonder to move in both your mind and my mind for a reason. I dont believe wisdom is faulty at all, just by nature is not supposed to be understood unless it reveals itself. There are plenty of scientists out there who passionately believe in God. The deeper they go, the more intelligent design is proven, of course, not the way you may see it The question is would you be able to find faith if God did show himself? Again, we cant reveal through reason, but if you listen, you just may find the reason we have found through the revelations given in Christ. Interesting to me that some believe Jesus to be the absolute most foolish man who ever walked the planet, and how some believe he is the wisdom of the universe. Also that even after we have put a man on the moon, the message of Jesus still stands the test, and is exponentially getting stronger in the hearts of mankind. Everyone is crying out for good, for a cure, few are looking in Jesus. If Jesus was in everyone, and was everyone, the world would be incredibly revolutionized in a goodness the world has not yet known (its here, but not known to everyone), but is possible. Your trying to hold on to the idea that if science can prove that God does not exist, that there would be no spirit of Jesus by faith, and the world would be a better place for everyone. See the difference in the dynamic. Ultimately, you like to believe you can be as good as Jesus without his spriit, and that if you disproved God, everyone would follow your philosophical moral structure, or whatever science has planned in their minds. You dont see that there is more power in the heart of man, than in the mind. The heart of science disproving God is to save the world... The heart of Jesus is to save the world. See anything yet? This proves even more, to me at least, that we were designed with that very quality with or without a faith in God. I ask the question why does man have the ability to question his existence? You may say "who cares, just leave it alone". We arent really that different. "We didn't start the fire"

Yes. Its like a fish talking trash to the water. No, I dont believe that is true, but you do, so we'll just disagree. I dont believe that is true either. Its our ability to question and reason that makes us different from animals, but not different from nature. And it is interesting that a being of nature is "fit for questioning our existance" as you put it. edited to add: BTW I support stem cell research as long as it is used in the right way. "We didn't start the fire"

Forgive me here Bill, but the words arent enough, they never were... this is one of the stumbling stones of man made religion. It wasnt the word without the spirit. Its the spirit in the Word that saves. Crucified for our sin, and resurrected for our life. Plus the word, through the spirit had to fulfill the prophesy of the old promise to: as it was in the beginning, so shall it be in the end. "Jesus told everyone that "after you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know I am the one I claim to be, and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me" "We didn't start the fire"