rynodigsmusic

So faith has had a massive influence on the world and its structure. That is more interesting to me about why that is. Jesus said 2000 yrs ago that the world would inevitably end.. either because of faith, becuause of non faith, because of whatever reason... but it is still inevitable. That is before Christianity was even born (Jesus had not been ressurected then) In the book of Genesis it speaks of Islam and how they are destined to be a thorn in their brothers side and that they will live in hostility towards one another. Thats genesis, the oldest book in the bible. Nevertheless, we already have the weapons to destroy one another completely. and the bible also says that the destruction of the earth will come from its inhabitants. So, the way you see it, people are playing out the prophesys from the bible and that is what is making all this stuff come true, but you may not see that perhaps its just he prophesys in the bible that are true, and that even those who dont believe are apart of it just the same. Besides, there have been many wars fought over money, power, greed, territory ect... than a sincere faith in God... and all have shaped the influence of society as we know it... So I think you and I will just have to agree that both beleivers and non beleivers have shaped the society that influences us. And dont forget that Martin Luther King Jr was a Christian, so was Bob Marley, and many other human rights activists. Im not trying to be argumentative either, but this is what comes out when you try to cross the dynamic between a believer and a non believer (not saying your either, just the forum in general).. I like to think I am a reasonable man, but unfortunately even reason cannot cross the line into revelation. So paschal was right. Reason wont find revelation, rather, revelation finds reason. But of course your right, and I acknowledge that. I just like your posts, their more philosophical than most. "We didn't start the fire"

It brings heaven near to your heart. Jesus is about finding heaven on earth... hope is apart of that heaven... A child goes to bed and hopes for a fat man to come down his chimney.. he is alive in the hope, if the hope is sure. "We didn't start the fire"

You are receiving your revelations from the knowledge of the created, rather than the wisdom of the creator. What makes us different than nature? If we can create things, and we are apart of nature, then it would seem reasonable to assume that nature has creative wisdom as well. But as it is with people who cant believe in God, this all sounds incredibly foolish to you im sure. Its just not fair to others who are curious about Jesus to come across someone who discredits him even more becasue "he use to be a Christian", and here are the reasons Im not anymore... Our bodies were made to build, but its our minds that have the power. We dont even use the majority of that power, and I believe it is because we are still putting walls around faith. Your example of someone doing negative things with faith should give you reason to believe it is possible to do great and good things with it as well. Who? I mean, who are we to question what gives us life? We all need to remember that we are only alive right now because of life. Life doesnt owe us any explanation or revelation at all, it doesnt even owe us time. Why do we think it does? Im sure many of the things believers say sounds crazy and foolish to non-believers, but some of the things you guys say also sounds just as foolish to us. Thats a very interesting dynamic difference in the "faulty design" of the human mind. That some see absolute perfection in God, and others cannot. Seems to me that you would need both to recognize the truth. "We didn't start the fire"

Agreed. But also think its a bit deeper than just the promise of an afterlife. Its the miracle of life itself that holds the depth of that concept within the individual Surely this is true right? Im sorry, I dont know pascals wager... sounds like if you believe and your wrong, then you've wasted your life, but if you believe and your right then your going to heaven? Help me out. If thats what it is, then I must say philosophy class sounds like it is getting much more boring to the ever evolving wonder in the human imagination. Im afraid you greately underestimate the power in Gods grace. God is beyond the mind, he lives in the heart. Tell someone you love them mind to mind, or, show them you love them heart to heart. The heart is the greatest tresure chest... fill it, and no matter what happens in life, you will keep that treasure always. But I would agree with you if my faith we founded merely on tradition, oppression, rituals ect... Jesus came to say that those are not the ways to God, that faith is the only way. So, if someone truly enjoys all the rituals ect.. becasue of their faith, then what are they missing out on? Perhaps it is us who is missing out? But, if someone doesnt enjoy the rituals, and does them just for favor from God, then this goes against the message of the Gospel, and in that case you would be right. Consider a bhuddist monk. They attempt to live extrememly humbly, and at one with life, and love, and in nature ect... thats what gives them enjoyment, pleasure, peace and enlightenment. they dont do that because they think they are going to heaven, they feel as if earth can be heaven, and so do I. Inviting God into your life is far from missing out, in fact, for me there was so much that I found to gain rather than desire to give up. Is this a fair observation to your original post? "We didn't start the fire"

This is deep. The time spent here on earth is already time spent in eternity. I agree with you about GW, but just because a man is weak spiritually, does not mean he has no spirit. It would've been nice for GW to turn the other cheek, for any president for that matter, and perhaps if he had been a little stronger in spirit he would have. America would be "greatly vulnerable" to any attack if a spiritually strong Christian were in charge... many would die as a result, but, the message and power of Jesus would be heard in an amplified voice on that sort of worldly stage... its just not time yet. The rest of your post is very true. Im afraid you may underestimate how weak we Christians really are, and how much we have to rely on God. Perfection that Jesus speaks of in the Gospels is unatainable in our minds. But, he shows us that we are loved in this weakness, and that alone makes us perfect in love. But your right, if you can find someone who did what the apostles were told to do, then you may find a very strong spiritual Christian... but, love will be present in that case (regardless of their posessions), so, look for that to make sure they are pure. Other than that, simply doing something like that in faith so that you would live later in paradise goes against the spirit of heaven (This alone is one of the fundamental problems with man made religion). If you find someone like that, they truly will want to die for you so that you might know God as well. Something to consider also, is why would God "set the bar" below perfection if he was tying to prove our weakness in relation to him? No, its we are weak, but made perfect in that weakness through the refining power of love. This is the message given to the apostles. "We didn't start the fire"

Religion is man made, and man is evil at its core. Jesus gave us the spirit of truth to discern what is of man and what is of God. I agree with your statement, but its not complete without the knowledge of the truth. However, religion did find the spirit, so, it would seem that even the core of evil serves the purpose of good. If the "us" you speak of is "everyone else" (I am everyone else as well), then you are mistaken as far as Christ sees it. No soul that knows Christ is going to beat the ignorant, lost, hateful, the weak, the blind, (from the perception of Christianity)... did Jesus not from his heart forgive those who crucified him? Jesus is the spirit of understanding and grace, just because man singles you out, doesnt mean that God does. "We didn't start the fire"

No offense here at all. But whats up with the gobbley-gook?? Thats gotta be the strangest word of expression I have heard in a while... and its funny. But, seriously, find me anything you can that teaches about goodness, that is not found in the gospel. Its a challenge. Search all the religions/proverbs/sayings, whatever, and we'll just see if its in the Gospel or not. If it is, then one can only assume that type of wisdom is found anywhere/anytime/by anyone. But it also means that wisdom was here before the revelation of it. I have come to enjoy many bhuddists and chinese proverbs, but the fundamental nature of their meaning has all been expressed in the Gospel. Thats a pretty incredible revelation of wisdom for just one poor, humble, man who lived 2000 yrs ago, and inspired an entire philosophical belief that rivals (in my opinion) any philosophy out there. And, changes lives in absolutely miraculous ways, whether it is agreed to or not. "We didn't start the fire"

Then what are you doing in SC?? This is where skydivers get deep, where else can you go for coversations like these? But your right, what will be, will be. "We didn't start the fire"

So I gave it up in rebellion? I thought I was a Christian for 16 years of my life and did not give it up out of rebellion, or because I was addicted to the sin(considering at that time I lived as you would expect a good christian would). I gave it up because I took a long look at the bible, the idea of god, and the theology behind the bible and realized the whole thing does not make sense or follow and type of logical reasoning. Now back to my post, how exactly did your reply, have anything to do with the point I brought up? How do you explain a god who creates a defaulted eternity of pain for humans in hell, and then decides he needs a way to fix his mistake, and sends himself down to kill himself? A god does not make mistakes, nor would an omniscient being, go through all of this trouble to get to the end product, it follows no logical means of reasoning, if you know what will become of what you do, then most certainly you will choose the best possible route to the end conclusion...meaning, sin, killing himself, creating Satan, a hell and a heaven...none of that would even be a factor. -Evo First of all, Let me be clear that the "they" I speak of is always me. There is nothing different in me except I believe I have found grace, and my hope is that I grow closer to it. I spoke about bitterness because I have seen it growing in me, and during that time was given the revelation of what the apostles were talking about in the New Testament. I have read over those parts about bitterness several times and had no revelation of what they were talking about, until, like I said, it started to grow in me. So, for me, the warning is pure... and I try to examine my thoughts to gain some more understanding as I persevere in this spirit. The reason I said I believe it is possible to come back to Christ is becuase Jesus tells us that nothing is impossible with God. But, it is true that some will never desire to come back to the faith, and Im sure there are all sorts of reasons for that, but the one I was focusing on at the time of my post was the "bitter root". I am sorry if I offended you, I dont think that was my intention. For me, it is revealled that my heart desires to live a sin free life, just dont want the temptation there at all... but, that of course does not mean that i am innocent. I struggle just like all have from the beginning of time, to keep my conscious clear, but I dont do it alone, as you know. The truth is that I didnt know how little "sin" meant to me until I found grace... and let me tell you, I am a sinful man... at the time, it seemed to be the only pleasure i had. But I can testify with all my heart that one touch of the presence of God will change your mind about the pleasure found in sin forever. The world sees it as "we're missing out"... but those who believe that, dont know the Jesus we know. This all gets very deep Let me first just say that you are asking me, and I am giving you my perception of what I believe, you of course have a mind of your own... that being said... Who said God has made a mistake? Im sure the grass would say the same about the lava that flows over it during an eruption because it doesnt know it will bring the grass back even more lush than before, and in nature, we are no different than grass, we just think (awareness) we are. If you have read my previous posts on hell, judgement, and fear you may get what I believe in regards to them. But it is always interesting to me how many people cannot get past the concept of hell. It is your own concept, it is the judgement you carry in the conscience you dont believe you have. I said earlier that i believe those concepts are based in an instinctive fear, and were designed into our being. And its also very interesting that the concept of hell is a very powerful enticement to find God at all... Without Jesus, without anything to influence your mind, I still believe the concept of being tormented by the revelation of death would still be amplified by the human conscience. The one that brings us closer or takes us further away from the spirit of God. So, as you can see, I dont believe that hell is a mistake at all, in fact, I believe quite the opposite. The logical means of reasoning is to inspire in his creation a very peice of his nature... Faith. Faith is a very very very powerful thing, but humans are so weak in it, as Jesus says. I mean, im really not even sure when it really started to take root with me. I started with trust, hope, and a love I did not know, and now, years later, with as much humbleness I have in me, I say I believe I found faith, however small it is. The logic is that God is faith and therefore in order to commune with him, you must have faith, and what better place to be born of faith, than this world? God speaks and it is so. Faith is his nature, and he is creating creations of his very being to be with him eternally... and that includes right now. Is it so hard to believe that we are a type of spiritual soil that it used to plant seeds of faith in? This is a revelation of many of the parables of Jesus. Think of anything that you grow. You sort the stuff you can use/eat/enjoy/ect... with the stuff you cant. And what do you do with the stuff you cant use? Who cares, its gone. But you had to have it there so you would know which fruit/vegitiable/herbs to keep. Since I look at us as simple creations with complex awareness of existance, I see us as nature sees us, as very similar to anything else that nature grows, and for a purpose as well. The logic is in there somewhere. Its just very hard to explain to those who have the perception of being seperate of nature (not saying you do). The reason God came to flesh was to give us his life. He humbly came into his own creation to fulfill his purpose for the soul of mankind. He gave us everything that was his. His pride (as a man), his love, his body, his blood, his truth, and his life. He layed it all out so that we would know the truth about his good nature, which is grace. He did it for us, thats the key. Why would he have to? He didnt, but that makes it so much more powerful.. but as you know it gets much deeper stiil. This is assuming you know the end conclusion. All we know is that Jesus saves, and God will appear again, and before that the world will turn to shit... apart from that, we are left to wonder like a child wonders. Even as we grow older and the world attempts to harden us, we will grow in wonder and revelation, and soon (as in inevitably), there will be a revelation given to all inhabitants that will fasciante and awe inspire even the deadest of souls. You would agree that a mind evolves in its thinking, as scientific minds evolve, so do faithful minds... we seem to inspire one another. I dont know why you left your faith, but I know faith is really important for the ushering in of this revolutionary revelation that is inevitable. I believe that what Jesus says is true, he is coming back, maybe not in any way any of us can imagine, and yes its seems very slowly (in human years) but surely. Remember, I believe in destiny, but I dont believe it is my destiny, I believe we can choose our destiny, and what becomes of it, already exists in eternity, just hasnt become aware to us. "We didn't start the fire"

I dig the cool quote personally... its just cool, but I must say that I dont really believe Jesus is the first to unveil the concept of hell. If you read throughout my many longwinded posts on this thread, youll see that I think the fear of judgment, hell, the unknown, whatever, is a part of human nature. Jesus saves you from that fear, but he does it with a great love. There are many I have come across who have aparently "given up" their Christian faith, (Although I am one of the few who believe you can get it back, and I can explain that if someone needs me to) The ones who give it up, give it up because they grew bitter towards God for showing them their sin in the first place. They think they dont want to stop (like any addict), so they rebel, and continue to sin in bitterness, rather than with the grace and understanding in Christ. Its not sin itself that takes us further away, it is the bitterness and rebellion we carry that interrupts our pleasure-filled peace and hunger for the light in life. Jesus doesnt just rip us out of sin, he leads us out gently, with complete understanding because he knows how blind we truly are. As we have been saying, changing something because you are told to is so much different than changing something because you want to. Jesus shows us the way to God and helps us persevere without bitterness through an everlasting grace. Everlasting grace is the spirit of Christ. "We didn't start the fire"

Even death cant change that if you have the hope that Jesus offers. "And now you see the light, stand up for your right"-bob marley Bring some oil with you while you wait! "We didn't start the fire"

It would appear so, but... righteousness is the teaching of wisdom, the wisdom of the universe, the wisdom of life. I have not found any teachings (of righteousness) outside of the Gospel that were'nt revealed inside the Gospel. I am always open to revelations and invite any of them that are true into value. But the exclusive wisdom you speak about, doesnt beong to anything/anyone but wisdom itslef. "We didn't start the fire"

I agree, it does sound condescending, and I am very sorry about that, but for those who know with 100% certainty that death is death what should I call them? Those are the ones who believe they understand death as well as they understand life, yet they find fulfillment in life, but claim with absolute certainty that you cannot find fulfillment in death, and then, with that same absolute certainty they speak against others who simply cannot believe that. Now who sounds more condescending? No, you are not consious of your own existance anymore, but according to your logic, you cant exist at all if you believe that it is possible to cease existing. As humans, we have no concept of eternity at all. I can tell you that whatever existed in eternity is still in eternity. Think of it like this, does life cease to exist just because you are unaware of it (or dead, or gone, ect...)? But I am interested in how people respond to this one. Again, I am the same way. Life to the fullest is what Christ is all about. But, I have to question your perception of life to the fullest... what about those who never had the opprotunities for "life to the fullest". Those who are/were oppressed from the beginning, taken advantage of, held down. They have hopes and dreams also, but I guess this is the only shot they get too. I have trust that my God is just, and that everything with life belongs to him. He controls the perceptions of man. That it might be possible for even people in extrememly humble enviornments to find "life to the fullest". And you also are closer to Jesus than what the world is telling you. I did. Its not the truth. I have fear, although, I dont dread punishment anymore from any set of "cave man" beliefs. This is great. Really, do you think Im just attacking you or something? The perception is that Im pushing you, but more likely you are being pulled. Its okay to go as deep as you can. There is a line in Good Will Hunting when Robin williams is talking to damon and he says "I cant learn anything about you that I cant read in some fuckin book, unless you want to talk about you, but you dont want to do that do you sport? Your terrified of what you might say" I think fear keeps us from going deeper and deeper into our own minds, ironically enough it seems to be just that fear that inspires the deep revelations of the heart. Fear is powerful, but its not designed to destroy us, its designed to help us find life to the fullest. I say that I hope with all my heart that your spiritual connection with life is even greater than mine. I would hope that for everyone, with or without Jesus, but I am not the creator, and I have zero control over his timing, grooming, and growing of any of his creations, spiritual or physical. What I know is that God makes things grow and that everything is his. "We didn't start the fire"

We arent that different at all, either you believe or you dont, but God shows himself to whomever he pleases. Clearly he is trying to get your attention. Think on this. Either we are here just to die, and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for our existance, (even enjoyment is a reason) or, we are here to find the very spirit of life, the one that brought us up, made us grow, and has been with us since the beginning. Hope is not for death, it is for life, and is life. God reveals himself to both the hopeless and the hopeful. God is the very nature of beauty. There is us, and the earth, but its the connection that is beautiful. Without the life we would not have the beauty. For me, Beauty is one of Gods absolute, hands down, greatest revelations... that and pleasure. And its not me you follow, its your very own and very unique personal relationship with God. All Im doing is sharing. "We didn't start the fire"

I am certainly a bruised reed, but I am glad their are good and faithful servants out there, working with what they were given :) "We didn't start the fire"

I agree with this. I live in the middle east right now, and unless you've ever lived here, you woud not understand their culture at all. Many (americans) would be quite offended that is for sure. But you bring up an interesting point about other beliefs still focusing on sin as quite a disruption on their spiritual journeys. Sin is what keeps people from God, but also, ultimately, what brings us closer to him. "We didn't start the fire"

This is the sound of the spiritually dying. You dont see that we're already dead, and that only in death can we find life. "We didn't start the fire"

No, but the spirit of santa is real. "We didn't start the fire"

Im sorry man, you read it but you didnt see. Some of those verses gave me increible revelation and a stronger connection with God. He teaches us to let go, something many should try sometime. It would take me about 4 hours to respond to this properly... time I just dont have right now... but since it is an earlier post of yours and they are obviously sincere observations, i feel it will need to... just give me some more time, hopefully I will get to it soon. Also, keep in mind, all those verses you chose are out of context, something I dont use much anyway, but even in context, they arent whole verses, its a little difficult to see the pic in a puzzle without all the pieces. peace "We didn't start the fire"

No. A person can only be what he was created to be. Just like any flower of a field, its destiny was in the seed. Before I became born again I too was searching to be just such a great guy, non-judgemental, no worries, loving everyone and living life to the fullest. But I found darkness somewhere along that path, i cant speak for others. I did feel as if I had a sincere love for those who were just as weak as me. Before I came to a knowledge of the truth, the only thing I had found through all my searching, was that I knew nothing except that I wanted to be good... and I was already starting to let go. I was more than releived to say the least to hear this in message of Jesus. A soul has to be prepared and the soil has to be ready before the seed can be planted. You also, are closer to Jesus than you know. If you really want to learn how to let go, then just let go and ask God to give you Jesus, repent of your sin, but do this with all your heart, like you believe it is at least possible for God to be real and eternally loving and understanding... You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. But this requires humbleness, something that is very hard for some. For me, the quest for being a good guy wasnt enough to keep me from going deeper and deeper into my own mortality... I needed hope and I didnt even know it. Human beings, by nature are designed to think and use our minds. Even native americans who didnt have the knowledge of Jesus, found a belief in the creator, so those deeper thoughts were not only present because of the bible, they are ingrained into our being for a reason, just as negative thoughts, destructive thoughts, ect... You cant escape it, our minds have held the knowledge of life and death even before Jesus came. The ones who seek the truth, seek life to the fullest, unless they long for death, in which case they would seek the truth in the spirit of death. Christ taught us that there are two lives of a man. The life of the flesh, which is condemned to die, and the life of the spirit. We all know the outcome of the flesh do we not? But, there is a life in the spirit that also has a death and a life as well. Some choose to follow the life in the spirit and believe in faith, hope, and love, and some choose to follow the death in the spirit, in which this world is all there is, and there is nothing given beyond what we see or get. In which money, posessions, power, legacy, success, happiness, and acceptance is all there is, then you die. Or, you die sometime before that and somehow you have to be okay with knowing you never truly got what you wanted ect.. ect... Now, the one who chooses to see this life is all there is, will recieve the rewards of this life in that perception, but, the spiritual side of the mind will die with the body (according to Christ) unless there is life in the spiritual side, in which case, all things given are gifts of God, and nothing is ours and never was. This type of thinking takes us out of the spiritual death that the world tries to influence, and into what matters most to us, what we desire most of all. Those desires are lessons and rewards in Humility, in humbleness, in love, in letting go, in understanding that wisdom does not belong to you, in honoring one another because you love them, not becasue they "deserve" it, in a deep respect, (that goes beyond the ego) for all living things.. In learning how to know God… Which is what the spiritual life is all about. Most likely you already fear hell, just keep trying to convince yourself it isn’t real. If you don’t fear hell, then you may fear the unknown. I believe the ones who know their fears, admit them, and even in some way understand them, are the ones who live by the truth. If you have no fear, then you have no fear, or, could be in a great denial. Fear is a nature of man, it is instinctive for survival and often underestimated until it drenches us with terror, that is, until it makes its power known. Spiritually, fear humbles even the hardest of men. The world generally has a great misconception of fear and that is what all these wars are ultimately about, but for the spiritually sensitive and those who continuously try to understand it, fear leads to great peace, comfort, and even joy. But there must be a revelation or enlightenment for that to be true, because by nature, fear was designed to be very powerful and influencial without understanding. I wrote all this to say that fearing hell is not a bad thing, just like fearing anything is not a bad thing, its just confronting the truth inside your mind, if in fact you have fear, consider it a blessing, if you have a fear of God, consider that the truth. But now what? Did God just design us to fear him or is there something else going on? For me, that answer is in Christ, and I was surprised almost beyond belief at what was revealed. "What am I on the other side of life? What am I, on this side" Hope is not for the afterlife, it is for this life. Eternity begins and ends in a limiltess amount of time (there is no measure), meaning that right now, this moment, is in eternity. I believe the search for Christ is an eternal search of timeless souls. The bible says it is for a man to die once, but it doesnt say anything about a soul. The souls belong to the spirit which ignite them, beyond that, I have the freedom in Christ to explore the deepest wonders of my imagination, and I dont share everything with everyone. Why? Because I believe there is only one who is good? The point is that a "tree is recognized by its fruit"... if the tree is good, the fruit will be good as well. I believe I am showing more tolerance than you give credit for. If you cant understand Christ, at least try to find goodness. But unfortunately in this day and age, goodness is always argued against as arbitrary at best. A whole philosophy of thinkers throughout history have been debating over this very subject. Christ just summed it up for me at least, and he says that no one is good, that there is only one who is good, and he is in Heaven. "We didn't start the fire"

I understand. The goal is to find faith that brings us closer to God. Faith is the goal. To find a beautiful connection with the creator and all his creations, but our own thoughts accuse us and those accusations keep us from enjoying even just one moment with God "in spirit and in truth" I know your issues are sincere but unfortuately I dont have all the answers. But God is revealing more and more of himself as our minds, imaginations, and hearts evolve, and he may just answer your questions if you ask him. Keep in mind, God is the spirit of wisdom, all our "facts" are only proofs of what truth had already existed. Something isnt true because we prove it (as many believe) something is proved because it is already true. God is like that. The revelation of God has been here from the beginning, but it is only proven through faith. The wisdom of Christ brought us that truth. A life with God is our God-given right, its man that tries to steal that right, as is the design. It is much deeper than what can be presented in these forums, but the short version is that light is not found without darkness. As far as other religions are concerned... "a tree is recognized by its fruit." and... "there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed" and ... "There is only one who is good" Hope that helps. "We didn't start the fire"

Im afraid we cant debate a mirace with human understanding, you and I both would be speaking a different language altogether. But I believe there are many who have seen what I have. The power is undeniable and goes way beyond simple or even complex emotion. What followed is that i know Jesus is the truth. Im afraid, no amount of human knowledge can reveal this power, but it is availiable through a sincere repentance and fear of God. This is really all I can tell you. Any argument or debate, at least for me, would be fruitless. I am called self righteous and narsacistic for experiencing this miraculous revelation and sharing it, but again, it is completely undeniable for me. I want to be everyones freind, but I still believe, and that alone makes it difficult in these times, where hatred for Jesus is growing. Jesus is the spirit of freindship, but he is not always accepted becuase he not always understood, and he is not understood until he is accepted. This is by design of the spirit and there is no other way for those who seek the truth in Christ. Now, is this a language you understand? For some it is life, for others just words. peace "We didn't start the fire"

So be it. The Word of God, the one you quote from, also says that "the flesh counts for nothing", that the flesh gives birth to flesh, and the spirit gives birth to the spirit, and that there shall be a new heaven and a new earth, and that the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength. If you are strong, congratulations, but what do you need Jesus for? I hope your conscience is clear as well because the way you judge others, you will be judged, and the measure you use will be used against you. This very topic, (might as well add everything else that the jews were so zealous in following at that time as well) has kept people from experiencing the love of Christ for some time, and those who seem so justified and empowered to condemn the weakness in others should be careful, spiritually, of living the condemnation they inspire in others. I am always concerned of being bred for destruction, the accuser is very powerful, but, Jesus is Lord in my life, weakness and all. God is the judge and savior of all mankind, forgive me if I dont tremble from your words, I have the truth now. Also, notice, that you judge me, and others with the law that was given to Moses, therefore, you stand in judgment against that same law. Did God not say, let us reason together? Reason tells me that whether you think being gay is immoral or not, it is still present in our world, and your voice is very similar to the ones that Jesus saved the adulteress from. Why did Jesus come if not for the needy? What good is it for a man to be changed for the love of god if he does not poesess the love of God in his heart? Jesus spoke of this alot, being clean on the outside is not the same as being clean on the inside. If you think that a person must quit being gay before he can find Christ, then you have missed the entire revelation of many of Jesus' parables, and for that I am sorry. But, I must be bold with you, even at the risk of being wrong, and say, that your voice sounds like that of a hypocrite, and all things will be revealed in time. Let me be clear, I am not calling you a hypocrite, I am saying I hear the sound and you should be careful and pray about this. I am sorry I wrote so much, but you fired me up as I was typing, and it frustrates me that even after Christ came to give us the truth, we still hear this voice amongst us. You should pray to forgive me if I am in error, and pray for revelation in regards to this ridiculous stumbling stone. Like it or not, there are gay believers out there, are you going to stand before God and say you deserve his grace over them? Again, forgive me if anything I have said is unjust, but know that I am speaking from the heart as well, and i have to look out for falseness the same as you. peace Edited to add: The Word of God that inspired the zeal of the jews in that time is the same word that appeared to them. But, they couldnt recoginze it and rejected it. They believed something completely different than what the Word actually revealed. "We didn't start the fire"

It was, but the jews handed him over to them because they thought he was evil. If you read the Gospels (not implying that you havent), he handed himself over to fulfill the will of God. Historically the view is quite accurate, but usually lacks in the spiritual side... the one that gives "life to the fullest." which, I may add goes well beyond just good morals and values and Jesus just being a swell guy. You seem to accept others and their faiths without seeing them as a threat to you, and don't threaten us "heathens" or even (as others have done) gloat about others you dislike being hurt or dieing.*** Jesus accepts everyone, but not everyone accepts Jesus. There are many who believe themselves to be sinners, and many who do not. Jesus "did not come for the righteous, but for the sinner". "There is none who is righteous, no not one". I am many of you, I am a sinner, I am condemned, I do feel dark and hardened at times, but, I am all these things with grace. I am dark with a touch of light, and I like to believe that I am at least trying to know Jesus, but in this world, with so many lies, it is not easy without the spirit that Jesus gives. But your comment means alot to me, so thank you. "We didn't start the fire"

So you obviously have a sincere faith that God is not real, but you have very little insight to what God is. I started to write so much in response to your post, but I understand that one can only believe what he is meant to believe. I hope you have the bluest skies. "We didn't start the fire"