falxori

Again, valid points if you refer to Israeli arabs (~20% of the citizens). they are arabs in culture, muslim by religions, but still as Israelis as I am. no, before 1967 they were Jordanians and Egyptians. after 1967, the west bank and Gaza were not annexed to Israel (East Jerusalem and the golan heights were and the population there became Israeli Citizens) and they remained "under occupation". The goal is to give them sovereignity. now the west bank has civilian (and partial militaty) autonomy. Gaza has no relations with Israel since Hamas took over. no one claims they are Israelis. no one but you, that is... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

ANY conflict has the theoretic potential to turn into a genocide, most don't and neither will this one (at least not from Israel's side.) no they aren't. I dont understand why you insist to include the palestinians in Israel. they themselves dont want to be Israelis. they want their own state, and so am I. the only group that might not be clear are the Israeli Arabs. they are Israeli citizens but their "nationality" (for lack of a better word) is Palestinian. a war between Israel and Hamas is not a civil war, it is a war. civilians getting hurt does not make it a genocide, not even in the leadup. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

really? first of all, humanitatian aid is flowing in, maybe you should ask Hamas why most of it doesn't make it to the people... when two countries are in a state of war (and for all purposes, Gaza under Hamas is a sovereign entity) one does not have to supply anything to the other, unless occupying and controling the population (which israel is not). a blockade was put on Hamas to stop the flow of weapons and explosives to an enemy entity. very justifies and very legal. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

I am very familiar with what is going in Rwanda. do you really think this is the same? do you really think there is a genocide in Gaza? and what words would that be? that the palestinians in Gaza are not Israeli citizens? I said that becuase you claimed "Israel kills it own" which has nothing to do with reality. I never said all Palestinians should die. I never said Israel should clear Gaza completely and kill every man, woman and child. Yes, Israel could turn Gaza into a flat land. but it deosn't. it doesn't target the civilians and you know it. you may claim that it is not doing enough to avoid hurting civilians but thats a whole different story than your suggested genocide. anyway, how did this thread turn from a video of Hamas brutally beating Fatah people to another bash israel thread? or was that Israel's fault too? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

sure. count the number of anti-israeli threads you've started and the number of anti-whatever threads that I've started. yes, I usually respond to your posts as they are full of the same twisted views over and over again. repeating something doesnt make it true. you seem to go against Israel no matter what. as long as its Israel, it has to be the guilty party. Israel is not perfect, it has made many mistakes but as someone who keeps shouting "one sided" on everything, you are really, wellm one sided.,. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

Seriously Bill? Really? you say Palestinians in Gaza are to Israel what Jewish americans are to the US? Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens, Palestinians in Gaza are in every respect a foreign nation ruled by a government which declared war on Israel. huge difference... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

it's like you have a timer that goes "beep beep beep" every 72 hours, making you post something against Israel... the facts dont matter, doesn't matter who's right or wrong, the context is not relevant, as long as its something against Israel, you'll be first to vote for it... you still support Hamas throwing Fatah people blindfolded from rooftops? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

dude, you can't keep a single thread on the subject, huh? as always, none of your "claims" are anywhere near the reality, but this is not the subject of this thread. maybe you should take a look at another video where they blindfolded the Fattah people and threw them off a roof top. I wonder what it would take to get you to say something negative on someone other than Israel... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

... and you'll reach the same conclusion you started with... you dont need to be "magically" guilty or genetically insane to be, well, guilty. Hamas' tactics have evoloved and went from one extreme to the next. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

this story happens pretty much every time. not suprising if it turns out to be the same this time. the problem is that by the time the truth is out, the damage is already done and nobody remembers that it was a lie, people still remember Jenin as the Jenin Masacare, even though it was proven to be a complete lie. same goes for the A-dora kid that became a symbol of how Israel shoots kids. a french TV analysis later proved that there is no way the kid was hit by Israeli fire and that the whole scene was staged by the local journalist (which of course, was palestinian). it's sad that the media so easily accepts these lies since a "humanitarian crisis" makes a better headline... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

no, not all. just the ones with their hands on the little red button... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

first of all, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Hamas took over Gaza (violently) in 2007. that is 2 years in which they could have built instead of destroying. second, your point just strengthens mine, if they ELECTED a government that its main theme is armed conflict, it proves even more that they did not chose the peaceful way when they had a chance and prove they can handle themselves. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

let me take myself as an example... I still fully support Israel's decision to pull out of Gaza. I would have preferred doing it as part of negotiations but since there was no one to talk to, I think Israel did the right move. the main reason most Israeli supported this move was the hope that once we're out of there, there will be no reason for the Palestinians (and this was before Hamas took over) to keep shooting. I still believe in the two state solution, but its getting harder to convince people when whenever Israel pulls back (and giving away land we all see and part of our homeland), the result is more violence and a terror organization (and a proxy of Iran) that becomes the government. so no, I don't expect the Palestinians to roll over, but you have no idea how much support the plan to pull out of the west bank would have got in Israel if the PA took Gaza to prove they can govern themselves in peace. I'm still hoping its possible but more and more in Israel treated Gaza as a test case, and the result isn't promising... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

I won't argue that it sux for them, but you must acknowledge that these checkpoints and security fence are there for a reason. as long as it stops things from blowing up in Israel, which they do, they are justified. btw, there are much less checkpoints inside the west bank these days and a couple of cities have been handed over to palestinian control. the west bank is much more tricky than Gaza (size, layout, etc.) and the status of it can only be solved in negotiations. I think you know my point of view on it and I believe I know yours. both sides will have to give up things they hold dear. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

who said anything about war crimes as a retaliation for war crimes? first of all, the use of phosphorous is legal when used properly. I have even heard a european doctor who was in Gaza at the time (I think he was swiss) who said he saw no evidence of any phosphorous burns on anyone. Israel does not target civilians to retaliate for Hamas targeting civilians. Israel does not target civilians period. Israel shooting back when fired upon from civilian areas is not a war crime. you can check the rules of war if you don't believe me. it's very clear. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

and that is makes a huge difference andd see the attached video showing how a missile is diverted away when the Hamas target is getting too close to civilians. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUeSE3WWX_M "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

I agree. saying "they fired at civilians so I will too" is not acceptable and I agree with you on that. but that's not the case here. Israel is not TARGETING civilians, justifying it by the fact that Hamas does it too. "I was fired upon from a civilian house or a school and I've returned fire" is very different. this is not a war crime. you are allowed to return fire anywhere if fired upon, even if it will hurt the civilians you enemy is hiding behind. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

you should really get over this racial/religious claim. no one is persecuting the palestinians because of their race or religion. ~20% of the Israeli citizens are muslim Arabs and they have the same rights as any citizen. the Palestinians in what you call "the occupied territories" are not Israeli citizens. the fact that they can't go in Israel freely is no different than me not being able to work in the EU or freely enter Russia without a visa. in quieter times there was almost no restriction on them from working in Israel. when things started to blow up, naturally it became a problem... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

again, Hamas took power of Gaza by brute force, killing hundreds of PA people. just in the past 2 days: no, the blockade is there to make it difficult for them to smuggle even bigger missiles. the tunnels are there to override the blockade. and yes, they smuggle everything. its not the tomatos we have a problem with. if it was just tomatos, there wouldnt be any need for a blockade. actually the UN said it does. and anyway, don't forget the constant attempts to blow up the border crossings that supply these supplies. now why on earth would they want to blow up the crossings that feed their people? i'm sure they have nothing to gain from the people not getting supplies... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

good questions... that's exactly how a fight between armed forces should be. not hiding in schools and homes. exactly, where is Darfur with more than 500,000 dead and millions displaced? where is Sri Lanka with almost 100,000 dead? Congo? Somalia? Philipines? etc.? I'm very cautious with the "Antisemitism" card as I don't take it lightly. and trust me, no one (sane) here thinks we are "God's own people". if this is what God give his chosen people, then I'll pass... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

you cannot put Israel and Hamas at the same level. one is a terror organization who refuses to do anything but violence, targets civilians and dances on their blood (even on its own citizen's blood). the other is a country under constant and unprovoked attacks. any other country under constant missile attacks would have wiped out half of Gaza, wouldn't have let ANYTHING in and out and would show much less regard to civilian lives. big difference... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

it would if it could, and even more. you really think this is an indication of being right? you mean like this: Hamas fires phosphorus shell "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

each is monochromatic, together, we make a rainbow... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

you missed my point. first of all, Hamas wasn't elected as government, it took it by force. it won the parliment election. being "elected" doesnt make them right, their actions do (or don't) still, it doesn't matter if they got elected or not. what is important is their agenda and actions. if they refuse to accept signed treaties, if they refuse to give up their violent ways and desire to destroy Israel, if they attack Israel repeatedly, THAT is what matters. the fact that they were elected just makes the citizens of Gaza a little guilty as well... Fattah's problem was corruption and Arafat's inability to let go of violence as a valid option when negotiations fail. his refusal to have the Palestinians "speak in one (peaceful) voice" ended up biting him in the ass... and used it to smuggle thousands of rockets. the blockade is there exactly becsause of that. there wouldn't have been a blockade if they were importing tomatos... preventing Hamas from easily getting more and more explosives and longer range missiles is very justified. blockade on an enemy entity that attacks you is not a war crime. calling it collective punishment is cheap propaganda. Israel has been supplying Gaza with lots of food and medical supplies (again, it doesnt have to in a state of war). most was taken by Hamas and given to its own people rather than to the population (according to citizens in Gaza). and again, it doesnt matter if Hamas was elected or not. in any case, they are in power and they wage war against Israel even when Israel has left Gaza completely. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

yes, the majority suffers because of Hamas' leadership. I don't care if they elected Hamas or not, its their government and it is responsible for their situation. Fatah lost all of its grip in Gaza in the (violent) takeover of Hamas. Hamas is the only reason there IS a blockade, as long as they refuse to accept existing treaties, stockpile rockets and use them, the blockade is justified. indeed, a change for the worst. for both sides. even the Egyptians have had enough of it "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."