falxori

we'll do is as many times as you keep bringing up the same ridiculus claims I didn't count, but I'm pretty sure that most of these threads were started by Darius and you, so don't complain when I'm forced to refute the same repetitive things over and over again... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

well pretty much all cases where Israel "expanded" its borders were the result of wars it did not initiate (including 67 where it was a pre-emptive strike which we can discuss if you do not agree). Israel never annexed the west bank or Gaza. it gave back lands it siezed in 67 and 73 in return for cease fires and then peace and it pulled our of Gaza completely. it gave him over 90% of the west bank with the rest in land swaps. and it would have resulted in a sovereign state. Arafat didnt accept it because he wouldn't give up allowing all of the Palestinian refugees back in Israel. not that i think the Palestinians are prisoners but, if a prisoner acts violently whenever you give him some freedom, he usually stay locked up/ "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

when exactly Israel wanted to expand its borders? sorry, couldn't understand anything from the rest of your post... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

and there still are. your claims that Israel is a "be jewish or get the hell out" country is simply not true. no it won't. but you should ask Hamas that, being the ones who broke the cease fire... if you really want to promote the Palestinian cause you should support the right parts in the Palestinian society. not the parts that consider violence as the only way. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

no, its more like Mike Tyson Vs. Holyfield when one is holding a 2 year old to take the punched for him... you mean such as not hiding behind civilians and then saying the other side hits them? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

no, it amounts to : every time we've tried, they tried to blow up the border crossings. simple as that. what reason do they have to blow up the crossings that supply food to Gaza? having a rough time is a result of war, that is not collective punishment. civilians getting hurt because rockets are fired from their back yards is a violation of international law. by those who use them as human shields. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

As always, pretty much everything you've listed is twisted and one sided, so i'll just say one thing. I feel sorry for the Palestinians that their supporters are people like you. You will immediately go against anything that is related to Israel that you miss the fact that Hamas and its pals have caused MUCH more damage to the Palestinian cause thatn Israel could ever do. you are blinded by your hate towards Israel and you think that anyone who is against Israel HAS to be right. you contribute the their suffering with your "all or nothing" approach because guess what, they can't get it all, if they take your (and Hamas') "advice" they will be left with nothing... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

you dont get it, do you? Hamas won the elections to Parliment, not government. it took the lead in Gaza by force in a bloody que. but it doesnt make any difference, I dont care if Allah himself came down and made them the government. once they are in power and continue shooting and refuse to accept treaties signed Israel and the world recognize them, as a target... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

I think that without realizing it, you've nailed the problem. there are no longer TWO sides, there are three. Israel and the PA are talking, its not easy, it may not work, but they have been talking for a long time. Hamas is a third player, it is not the PA and refuses to accept the treaties signed. THAT is the problem. again showing how useless the UN is. a resolution that does not mention Hamas even once. just play nice and call for a cease fire without addressing the causes of it all... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

a blockade that had one goal only. stop the endless flow of explosives into Gaza. there is nothing illegal about it. the government in Gaza is in a state of war with Israel. most countries would have cut power and supplies completely (war, remember?) but Israel didn't. and many many rockets and tons of explosives. I believe the deal was for the crossings to be under PA and EU supervision on the ground and Israeli monitoring remotely. both PA and EU people fled when Hamas took power. it is actually the egyptians who closed the border on their side (until it was breached) but there are still hundreds of tunnels smuggling anything and everything. actions speak louder than words. let's start with accepting previous treaties and not blowing up the same border crossings you want Israel to open (which they have several times) Israel has talked with (arguably) ex-terrorists like the PLO. Hamas is the government in Gaza. the people in Gaza suffer because of their leaders' choices. Indeed, he kept terror and violence as a valid option alongside negotiations. this doesn't work in the long run either. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

do you know that the Palestinians have been getting more per-capita aid than anyone else in the world? would you stop that too? I believe Israel would welcome this. IF they are effective. the ones in Lebanon have been doing nothing and often helping Hezbollah. actually, the 2005 agreement concerning the border crossing between Gaza and Egypt has placed European "peace keepers" there. it didn't stop the Palestinians from breaching the border line and creating their own "open border" with egypt (not to mention the hundreds of illegal tunnels. maybe valid when speaking about the PA. how can you even mention the words "agrrement" when Hamas openly declares that it will not respect any treaty signed by the PA in the past? you have to make the difference between the PA and Hamas. well i AM in my shoes and I never said that. I just know who we're dealing with here. Hamas (and to a lesser extent Arafat when he went back to violence in 2000) has caused more damage to the Palestinians than they did to Israel. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

this is almost too easy... you can at least make a small effort to check your "facts" instead of quoting cheap propaganda... last time I checked, 1967-2005 is not over 50 years. "in response" huh? even Hamas itself doesn't claim it was in "response" to anything. the broke the cease fire and fired hundredes of rockets in the week prior to this operation. and I wonder if these what would you do if these"crude, homemade, and mainly inaccurate rockets" were on your house. not to mention that Hamas also fires military grade Grad rockets and mortar shells into Israeli towns. (at least your not claiming they're throwing rocks...) you don't know that since Hamas is reporting its armed militants as civilians as well. but yes, there are civilians getting hurt. and they can only blame Hamas for using them as human shields. or is it your suggestion that if they fire from a civilian home, they should be untouchable? yeah, very objective... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

to clear this once and for all. Hamas won the elections for Parliment. it took the government by a military que against Abbas. and yet again, the fact that you won't talk with a foregin government (who swore to destroy you) doesn't mean you need to supply their people with anything. in the west bank, yes. In Gaza, not once Israel pulled out. by stop relying on Israel (or stop attacking it all the time). or rely on egypt (their second neighbour). yeap. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

no it's not. there is an (elected) government in Gaza who refuse the recognize treaties and openly declared war on Israel. show me another case in history when two states (and for all matter at hand, Gaza is a self governing state since Israel left) are at a state of war and one continues to supply the other with supplies, power, water etc. the fact that they rely on israel doesnt mean that israel HAS to supply them with anything (and yet it does). there was hardly any electricity, water works and other infrastructures when Israel was formed but with hard work, we've built them. Gaza could have done the same when Israel pulled out, but they chose not to. being poor and miserable serve their purposes just like keeping all of the 1948 refugees in camps for 60 years (there were as many jewish refugees in 1948 that were kicked out of arab countries). so no, Israel doesn't HAVE to supply gaza with anything once it pulled out. Hamas could have smuggled supplies instead of rockets and guess what, if they did, instead of blowing up the crossings, the borders would have beem pretty open. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

definitely something that shouldn't have happened. if it makes you any happier, 4 Israeli soldiers were killed and about 30 were wounded when an Israeli tank hit them by accident. sadly, friendly fire is part of war. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

first of all, once Israel pulled out of Gaza, it doesnt HAVE to provide them with anything. second, Hamas could have brought in food and medical supplies the same way it brought in tons of rockets and explosives. third, whenever Israel DID open the border crossings, Hamas tried to blow them up (and some times succeeded). so basically, Israel was providing supplies to an enemy who wants to destroy it. Hamas did anything it can to destroy the crossings and very few of the supplies who actually got in went to the civilians. so no, i dont think "just opening the borders" would have stopped the rockets. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

yes. Lebanon is a sovereign country. It has signed the cease fire agreement in 2006, promising that its army will take control of southern Lebanon (together with UN troops) so Hezbollah and the others would not be able to continue doing what caused the 2006 war (and yes, the killing and kidnapping of soldiers across the border and rocket attacks then were unprovoked as well). I dont care who fired these rockets. they came from a sovereign country's land and the goverenment there is responsible. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

a matter of opinion. but, Darius' claim was that the reasoning was racial. my point is that there are places were Palestinians are not allowed and there are places where Israelis are not allowed, following lots and lots of terror attacks on these roads. debating again whether Israel has a right to settle in the west bank won't get us anywhere. my claim is that it has. although they (or most of) will probably be removed in a future agreement, like the ones in Gaza were (not that that helped in any way, as we can see now...) "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

just in... maybe Darius can justify this unprovoked attack from Lebanon? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

yes, in the west bank, roads leading to israeli villages. just like the roads to palestinian towns and the town itself is closed for me. and again, its not jewish or not jewish, its Israeli citizens Vs. palestinians. thanks to your buddies in Iran they have enough funds, and yes, if they can affords tons of expolsives and thousands of rockets, they can afford uniforms. here's a new idea, instead of buying explosives, buy food and medical supplies... yes, that's what armies who are fighting do. the whole idea of uniforms and seperation is that soldiers get hurt and not civilians. you basically admit that Hamas uses civilians as shields. no magical, well founded, proved and very real. QuoteThose people were from all religions*** so is Israelis today, about 25% non jews (Muslim, Christians and Druze mostly). "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

true, until he starts shooting. I can respect that, and I really really teally wish they weren't caught in the middle of it. but again, when being shot at you can't just smile back... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

valid point. I don't know if its true but it seems Hamas actually threatens them not to leave. and i'm not sure if they can actually kick Hamas out of their back yards. so, I accept your comment. but still, I dont think anyone will blame the cop who shoots him in that scenario. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

nice illustration. I agree with your point as long as the masked man in your picture is just holding the gun. what will the police do once he starts shooting at them? what will they do when he starts killing other people arround? will they allow him to continue shooting or will they try to hit him, risking his hostage as well? does it matter that his "hostage" is actually his partner who could have fled but chose to stay? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

I agree. you still can't ignore the intention and targets. and again, Irgun was a small organization on the outskirts of society and it was actually prosecuted by the jewish leadership then http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunting_Season "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

it seems that once again when you have nothing to say you turn back to your "old truth" and recite the same crap. your post has nothing to do with what I said. but, once again... again, all israelis are equal by law, arabs and jews. people in the west bank are not israeli citizens, they are PA citizens. and before you draw your "jew only roads" card, i'll tell you again, west bank palestinians are not allowed in some areas just as Israelis are not allowed to go in west bank towns. its about security, following many many attacks, not about racism. no, i'm saying that when being fired upon, you fire back at the source. who chose to shoot from there? no, when you accused israel of violating the Geneva convention, I said that you can't behind these laws when you don't abide by them and clearly mark your combatants and shoot from civilian areas. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."