elfanie

You can't use stem cells from IVF embryos without.. 1. them being alive and 2. them being killed It's not like they are embryos that didn't make it, didn't cleave, and therefore you can use the cells. doesn't work like that... >How do you figure that terminated eggs are “not” denied life? They were, just as the ten spontaneously aborted embryos in a family of five were denied life (which is about average for a couple that has 3 kids.) Bill...I will drop to one knee and listen to you with scrutinizing intensity when you talk about anything remotely related to skydiving...just so you know how much I respect you in that arena.

No... YOU believe that they are humans. Others would believe that they are nothing but POTENTIAL human beings, equal to the individual parts (ie. sperm or eggs). Just because you feel strongly that they are "human beings" doesn't mean that it's anything more than a strong BELIEF...ie. not a fact Absolutely...and THAT much is fact. What is arguable, however, is that it's a human BEING..not just that it's human. My spleen is human, also...it has human dna. but if my spleen were in a mason jar, you wouldn't say it was a human being, even though its DNA is human. Nobody questions whether it's human. the question is, is it a human BEING....that which is deserving of protection under the law from us. That is arguable, and will probably continue to be argued for a very very very long long time. In fact, I'd venture to say that there are many many people who would think that a giraffe should have MORE protection under the law than an embryo...after all, a giraffe can think, and feel, and move, and react, and exist on their own. An embryo can do none of these things... it just all depends on what you feel gives us our value... is a human spleen more valuable than a giraffe because it has human DNA? or is it the 'potential' that gives the embryo its value? if so...does a sperm hold that same value? or an egg? And if so...you'd then have to be in favor of banning all hormonal forms of birth control... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

From a pro-choice point of view? We make that determination every day of our lives. Do we get brought up on charges for killing flies in our home? of course not..becuase we deem them less valuable than humans. What about pets...if you abuse pets, you can get punished by the law...but it's not the same as a child. Why? Because they don't hold the same value. And for a prochoicer...that embryo is closer to the fly than to a human. They don't believe that it holds the criteria necessary to be of equal value to one of the kids playing in the playground and therefore is classified more like a non-thinking creature (more like an amoeba) than a human being - a human which holds special value and deserves protection under the law. Just like a fly or a spider is not deserving of protection the way a human is...they believe that an embryo is not a human person yet. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Eep, Bill....getting into the abortion debate? The same way that we understand that people will die from cancer, heart attacks, diabetes, etc etc etc... yet we understand as a society that it is morally wrong to murder someone with a gun (unless it is to protect your own life). Just because mother nature will kill our children...kill our adolescents...kill our elderly...kill people in general...isn't justification for us doing it intentionally. therefore, along that same argument...just because nature causes miscarriages isn't justification for us killing embryos. Nature does all sorts of horrible things to us...but that doesn't justify us doing to each other on purpose. Uh uh... not true. When we did IVF...one of our stipulations to ourselves and with the clinic was that no embryos would be discarded..period. the other was the understanding that selective reduction was not an option, so we made choices and decisions accordingly. IVF does not require the destruction of embryos...it is an attempt to create life, not destroy it. just like having sex to try to have a baby...you run the risk of concieving a child that will not survive, but that's not the intent of the action. That's not why it's accepted.. it's accepted because embryos do NOT have to be destroyed. When they are, people still do have a problem with it. but people then (and even now, beleive it or not) had a problem with IVF not because of the distruction of embryos...but for the same "I don't know about it, it's new so it makes me twitchy" reaction that people nowadays have about cloning humans to create babies. Had nothing to do with the destruction of embryos (which is still a point of contention) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Ok..so help me out here... Is a MicroRaven the same thing as a Raven-M? Did all of the ravens have problems, or just certain ones? You're right that not all of us have the knowledge (or even ability) to look things up as much as you and Bill have...but since you've already put all of this effort into it, it's nice that you're willing (and able) to share with the rest of us... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Whoah whoah whoah... *blows a whistle* Time out here. I have a MicroRaven 150 as my reserve...are you telling me that these things are known to..blow up??? Yee-gads! Seriously....what's the track record like on the MR's? -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Would it not be a good idea to make sure that the cutaway pud is still in place? I can just see ya up there working to keep a clear head...working to cut away a malfunctioning reserve...you actually get the darn thing cut away cleanly...breathe a sigh of relief in freefall...throw out the PC...feel the bag lift up... and there goes the main bag with your chute in it...because the cutaway pud had been pulled... I'd rather land with a malfunctioning something...than land with absolutely nothing over my head. (heck, if there were time I think I"d consider unzipping my jumpsuit and holding onto the arms with one hand and legs with the other and hold that over my head...ANYTHING would be better than NOTHING! ) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

they use them in several different products like creams and conditioners... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Ya know...sometimes I wish I could bring my kids to Eloy so I could jump there. This weekend, like most every weekend, my husband and myself will be at Coolidge if anyone wants to stop by and say hi and jump once or twice with us. We do stop by Eloy fairly often...just can't jump there because of the kids. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

for now, those stem cells are hard or impossible to find and use. Nope...very very very easy to find and use. I have helped harvest many many many different cord blood cells for use. Very easy... and millions of babies are born every year...placentas either sold to cosmetic companies or simply tossed in the trash (those whose mommies don't safe them, like I did. ) We (the US) has somewhat of a stockpile of stem cells already, right? So for now obtaining them should not be much of an issue, yes? (I was remembering Bio when the thing has a dozen names before birth) A stockpile of stem cells? To what are you referring? You mean the zygote/morula/triphoblast/blastocyst/etc? those are embryos. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Depends on if you are harvesting cells...or if you're killing an embryo. It also depends on if you're prolife or prochoice and what you think the embryo is (a lump of cells or a human life) and what rights you feel the embryo should have. thus the never ending abortion debate. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Again, my (very basic) understand is that you have to destroy the embryo to grow the organs. [reconsidering because I can't remember when it technically becomes an embryo] You don't need to have an embryo in order to have stem cells...we all have stem cells in our bodies, and can harvest stem cells from umbilical cord blood. there never has to be an embryo to have stem cells. (it becomes an embryo as soon as conception has occurred...or when the proverbial egg is zapped and begins acting as it is fertilized) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

actually... OVER A MILLION people die each year from automobile accidents. In 1998 it was 1,170,694 people died worldwide from automobile accidents. as for injuries... total of 38,848,625 people were injured due to traffic accidents. Statistics can be made to sound like anything. Want skydiving to sound safer? compare the number of deaths annually (average of 31) to the deaths annually of other sports: Boating = 1,063 Scuba diving = 105 (1-2 cases of "Decompression Illness" [The Bends] per 10,000 dives) (7/02 Scuba Magazine) Snowmobiling = 60 Water skiing = 47 Snow skiing = 41 Want to make it sound more dangerous? change the basis of comparison and make it "per million hours"... Skydiving = 128.71 General aviation = 15.58 On-road motorcycling = 8.80 Scuba diving = 1.98 Living (all causes of death) = 1.53 Swimming = 1.07 Snowmobiling = 0.88 Passenger cars = 0.47 Water skiing = 0.28 What are you comparing to? Number of jumpers per number of car drivers? time spent jumping per time spent driving? distance fallen per distance driven? average skydive per average automobile ride? How YOU skydive compared to how YOU drive and where YOU drive? It can probably look/sound as safe or as dangerous as you want to make it. Me? I look at the number of jumps made....the number of annual fatalities....the cause of the fatalities...and estimate my risk of death annually from the way that *I* jump at my current experience level and my current choices (wing loading, swooping or not, CReW or not, BASE or not, etc) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

My quick thoughts... 1. I have no problems whatsoever with human cloning for reproduction. 2. I have huge problems with cloning embryos/babies that will be destroyed or otherwise killed. 3. I have no problem cloning an organ or whatnot to help those in need of transplants. As for people with the cinematic idea that cloning will make a duplicate of a person exactly and have this idea of Michael Keaton in Multiplicity or Arnold Schwarzenegger in The 6th Day....that's highly highly inaccurate. it would be more like an identical twin born years (or decades) later. Identical twins are unique individuals with their own opinions, feelings, thoughts, experiences, personalities.... same for a clone. those are my thoughts. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Lucas, genius that he is, didn't do the prequels for you or me (the fan base from the first movie)... he did it for the exact same group he originally did them for... young kids aged 8-15...and I think he succeeded. As much of a nut over the original trilogy I was, my children are over the new set. good for him.

stay stable...please come out (I had a reserve ride due to a hard pull a month ago)....good, it's out...and....vertical, good...open open open (like a mervin's commercial)....lines, good - slider down...come on, end cells, open *pump rear risers*...everything looks good....where's everyone else...clear airspace, ok, ...rear riser turn towards dropzone....altitude check...collapse slider....unstow brakes...where is everyone else....play play play... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

*thinks* Ya know..I didn't look at my altimeter (was too busy looking at the horizon, ground, flags, etc)... but my GUESS (I actually tried to "measure" on the video...knowing how tall I am, measuring from myself to the ground to approximate)...my guess is that I started about 70 feet off the ground I brought my right toggle to my ear... and about 40 feet off the ground I let it up. You can get a decent idea of scale by looking at the saguaros in the background. the saguaros are probably 30-40 feet tall in the background (more or less. Saguaros average in height from 10-50 feet, and those are decent adult size saguaro cactus...I've walked past them and they are probably about 30-40 feet tall) that's my best guess. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Thanks Jim...had a blast jumping with you on Sunday! Too bad we couldn't get a bigger group together... As for a braked turn...I didn't know that I was going to hit a gust until I was already toggle-down (unfortunately) so it's not like I was really 'turning' (as in trying to avoid an obsticle or turning into the wind)...more trying to maintain heading as I felt my canopy shifting to the left... so probably the more appropriate question would be...when I felt the 'lift' of the wind (whether that was due to a gust, or due to my right toggle input or whatever)...would it at that point have been better to lower my left toggle to meet my right (in half brakes) rather than letting my right toggle up to full flight? Yet another question...if I HAD gone to half brakes and attempted a flat turn and had caught that gust...what would the result have been? What would have happened? (hey Jim...did you see me bop that cone on Sunday? I couldn't remember if you were out there or not then..) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

There are plenty of dropzone websites that say that very same thing, too. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

You're missing the rest of it... Here I sit all broken hearted came to sh** but only farted wasted a dime, but what the hell at least I an sit and enjoy the smell. then there's the lovely poem that I was taught as a child.. You hag, you bag, you filthy scag you dirty rotton slut where fungus grows amongst your toes and crabs fall out your butt before I'd scale them slimy legs or suck them festered tits I'd drink a bowl of buzzard piss and die of the shivvering sh*ts. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Depends on if you're on the top of the bottom of the pile... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

I (the total 100% NONphysics person....so please don't laugh at the very untechnical words used) think that it's the distribution of air over the entire surface... as in... look at a feather. all of the holes in a feather don't speed it up, it slows it down more by disrupting more air. air doesn't really go through the holes because the turbulance coming around the sides will be moved outward... Ok...person A is falling, and there is turbulant air coming around them. You can feel this if you're doing a closed accordian....you have to drive in towards them or their turbulance will push on you. Once you closed it...now the turbulance can't really go BETWEEN you as much as some of that air will now be going over YOU as well... in other words...you together create one LARGER burble...because the burble is the size of person A's body, the size of your body, AND the gap between you... not technical...and I'm sure others will give a better explanation...but there's my attempt. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

I would be willing to bet that someone on your DZ uses drugs. That someone is an alcoholic. I could be wrong, but I would bet that I am right...Even in my old "Christian Group" we had drug users. I would bet that is true as well... but honestly, I don't care. I don't care what people do as long as they don't do it in front of me or around my kids...so if someone goes into the back and shoots up and I don't know it, so what. that's no different than any other place in the world. The object isn't to keep the kids from seeing what is out in the world... the object is to educate them as to what is out there, and try to keep them from doing it themselves. they WILL run into drugs....it's inevitable unless you lock them in a closet their entire childhood. The thing is..do you have open communication with your child so that 1. they feel comfortable talking to you and 2. they know the reasons to say no. My son is 8.5 years old. He is in the 3rd grade. Earlier this year, coming off the bus at his elementary school, another kid offered him drugs. My son's response? "No thank you...I'm allergic." BWAHAHAHAHA!!! I loved it! He came home and told me this..and I thought it was great!!! Good for him! but to think that it's the last time he will be exposed to drugs....is foolish. They are around...rather than ignoring them, I prefer to deal with them. Now..in about 10 years we'll see how well it works...but for now, that's the goal. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

It may not be true at the one DZ that you have jumped at...But it is true for MANY others. I will agree with this. It may even be true for MOST DZs out there. Just not all. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

well...I am a parent... and I think this is too much of a generalization to be true. "the DZ"....WHAT DZ? We have our home DZ for specifically the reason that it is "kid-friendly". Only thing there that I have seen is language (which my children are aware of - and I don't think that is something that will harm them. nobody is harmed by hearing a bad word.) and alcohol (and by the time the alcohol comes out...usually they are tucked into bed by then.) I'm sure there are other DZs that have other things that kids can become exposed to...each DZ is different. There is a big DZ not far from where we jump - a pretty major DZ - but we don't go there. Not because it's not a fantastic DZ! but because it's not "kid-friendly". Ours is. And I do feel that our DZ is a safe place for our kids or we wouldn't go there. (safe in the aspect of the people...of course things could happen, like anywhere in the world. They could get bitten by a spider...wreck their bikes...etc.) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings