elfanie

*boggles* HUH???? Umm...NO! Just because someone (I) believe that the sport is safe does NOT mean we take unnecessary chances. It is entirely possible that someone (I) believe that the sport is safe because of the fact that we are ultra-conservative and do not take any unnecessary chances... Why would you assume that the one who believes that skydiving is safe would get on the plane? I ground MYSELF at 15MPH..even when others with less jumps than myself are still jumping. Your ASSumptions are way off base. No, my friend...it is YOU who is not getting it. You're right..safety is a mind set...and believing that skydiving is safe in no way implies that you are careless. Like I said...it's quite probable that I feel it's safe BECAUSE of the precautions that I take. I have only jumped one DZ so far. Why? Because I don't feel comfortable yet jumping another DZ..I want more experience. I went to Eloy for the boogie (I live less than an hour away)....did I jump? No. Why? Because I didn't feel ready for it and didn't feel like it would be safe for me to do so. I just recently downsized to a 190 canopy...my exit weight is around 165. EVERYONE...DZO, S&TA, instructors, master rigger....tells me that the canopy is too big and I should downsize. Have I? no. Why? Because even though they said that I CAN...I don't feel ready. Lets give another possibility....the person who believes the sport is dangerous shrugs at downsizing and says, "Anybody can get killed at any time even if they do everything right...so why not downsize? Why not jump high winds? I mean...this sport is dangerous no matter what you do, so why not push it a little bit." yes, I beleive the sport is safe. Yes, I believe that there are many in the sport that are unsafe...even if they are kick-butt awesome skydivers, they are doing things that I consider unsafe. (ie. things that introduce additional risks such as BASE, swooping, etc) But your assumption that if someone believes that this sport is safe that they would then turn around and be reckless...that's rediculous. I believe that your assumption that making someone say that it's a dangerous sport is going to make them a safer skydiver or make safer choices is highly inaccurate. A noble goal....but a little midguided. Your assumption that me, thinking skydiving is safe, means that I make reckless decisions is very inaccurate. sheesh...I know that I could ALWAYS be wrong about things...no matter what it is. As for seeing me in a few hundred more jumps...hopefully I'll get my comfort level up to coming to Zhills in the near future. Then we can duke it out in person.. (and maybe then you'll see that I'm not the wack-job you think that I am. ) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

You see I am British, born in England, an the phrase that springs to mind is "we are not amused". didn't mean that YOU were amused... meant that *I* am amused. Ron amuses me...in a wierd twisted way, I like the guy.

Now you have something that really is horrific. Unlike skydiving, where when you screw up, its all over in 80 seconds, kids haunt you for the rest of your life. I know, I have two. Nightmare. *lol* I was more referring to the mortal risk and physical risk of carrying and birthing them. Emotionally....heck, I won't even touch that. And if I change my mind...I will bake up the crow myself and munch down. hysterical thing was..I had a bounce dream last night. I survived...but was in the hospital and knew I was going to die. My LAST WORDS in my dream was, "It's still safe! Don't let my death scare people off...I am the one that screwed up!" then I died/woke up... hee hee. I actually giggled to myself. I have never tried to change Ron's opinion..he absolutely has a right to his feelings/opinions. And it's possible that after 500 jumps (which won't take 10 years) I'll agree with him. I doubt it. but anything is possible. doesn't mean I don't understand his point of view. Not agreeing with him does NOT mean that I don't understand what he's saying or why he feels this way. I totally do understand it. just don't agree. *shrug* I don't.

Cute. Someone disagrees with you and rather than addressing the topic you resort to trying to demean them and personal insults by calling them names. That's very nice...and also very constructive. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

If this was referring to me.. then bless your heart for calling me "young". Check is in the mail to you. I definately see my own mortality...very very clearly. I do not have blinders on as to the risks of activities that I engage in every day of my life... the risks that I took in having children, the risks that I take in driving my car, the risks that I take in skydiving, the risks that I take every day. and I will say that I see many many people skydiving in a way that I think are unsafe. I think that this sport can very very easily be made unsafe...and it's those things that I choose not to engage in. As for Ron and me going at it... Hee hee. If Ron was in the same room as me I'd probably toss my arm over his shoulder and give him a big smacking kiss on the cheek. He'd probably throw my arm off of him and look at me in disgust...but despite the manner in which he communicates, I find him very amusing and would probably love to have a beer with him (so long as we don't discuss the definition of "safe" and whether skydiving as a sport is safe. ) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Ok...I officially nominate Mcrocker's snowflake as the absolute coolest snowflake. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

To keep them (you) from getting killed in this "safe" sport. To keep you "safe" Why don't you listen to people with more experience than you? Not just me but all the others here? Do you know more than all of us? First...what you're saying is that you believe that I, by virtue of believing the sport is safe, am more dangerous than someone who believes that the sport is dangerous...? So if two people are sitting side by side with the same experience and jump numbers and wingloading..and one said it's safe and one said it's unsafe...that the person who thinks it's unsafe is somehow a safer jumper? that logic doesn't make sense. (to think that you're somehow SAVING people by saying over and over how dangerous it is....THAT is naive. to give suggestions of how to make it safer, THAT is saving many more people than you just trying to convince people to define the sport as you do.) As for why don't I listen to people with more experience than me? I do! I just don't take their word as God when it comes to a personal assessment. Just because someone tells me to jump off a bridge doesn't mean I will do it...I will look at the benefits, look at all of the risks, and decide for myself if it's a safe thing to do. That's what you don't seem to be able to understand...that it's not about knowing more, it's about interpretation. Lets get away from skydiving for a moment... Epidurals are used in over 90% of birthing women in many hospitals across the country. You will hear over and over from anesthesiologists that epidurals are safe. Yet there are many risks...and some of them are VERY common (like, nearing the 50% mark). Are they wrong for thinking epidurals are safe? Nope...but I don't agree. My risk assessment says that epidurals are dangerous... doesn't mean that they are wrong..it means that their risk assessment came to a different conclusion. Do I know more than they do? No. Do they know more than I do? No. WE both have all of the same knowledge...but came to different conclusions. Same here. It's not about knowing more...it's about our interpretation of that knowledge. And you aren't saving anyone or making anyone safer by insisting that this is an incredibly dangerous sport... (but I am good at eating humble pie. when I hit 500 jumps....I will come let you know what I think. You could be right..I could change my risk assessment opinion...but we will have to wait another year or two to see...) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Ok...going by the dictionary's definition of safe...I'll go to that for a moment.. What, going by that definition, is safe? What activity would you say, using the dictionary's definition, is safe? (general "you", not a specific "you") -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Why? Why do you feel that it's so important to convince everyone that it's so dangerous? Why is that something you feel you must do? Do you beleive that by trying to convince them (us) that it is so very dangerous that merely saying that you feel that it's "safe" means you're an idiot...do you think that makes them (us) safer jumpers?? What is your motivation for trying to convince newbies over and over again that it's so perilous? I have never said that you are wrong for saying it's unsafe. I have never said that your opinions are inaccurate or that your opinion is invalid. I have simply said that it's a matter of definition - personal definition. Yet you keep trying to convince everyone that not only do you believe that it's unsafe, but that everyone who disagrees with you are newbie idiots that will grow up someday and realize how very right you are. (while verbally patting them on the head) It's not that you disagree or have a different opinion...it's that you are right and they are stupid and naive and wrong. so what are you hoping to accomplish? Why must this thread be debated everytime a newbie says it's safe? -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Rock climbing: 75% of participants sustain some form of injury in their career. "the following activities result in a 1-in-1,000 chance of death: rock climbing for 25 hours, skiing for 340 hours, driving a car for 2,000 hours, riding a motorcycle for 55 hours, and skydiving for 50 hours. " There are a lot of sports that are safer than skydiving..many many sports that are safer... but rock climbing isn't one of them. (specifically, outdoor rock climbing. Indoor rock climbing is safer, yes...) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

I never said that I don't have any qualms about it...I never said that the risk that it imposes doesn't make me nervous. I said that right now I consider it a safe activity to engage in (and I defined "safe" several times) if my husband died...I would be in a different situation in life...which could require different choices. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

It would change because any additional risk to my life would become something I'd try to get away from for my children's sake. If he died - regardless of the cause - I would reduce ALL risks to my life as much as I possibly could. I wouldn't stop jumping just because HE is the one that bounced....I'd stop jumping if he died, regardless of the cause of death. (because I have three small children) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

If you aren't going to use the 3 million jump figure because many of them are tandem non-repeat jumpers...then you can't include tandem deaths in your figure, either. and you can't include first-time jumpers in your calculation of risk. Either you include all of the jumps made...or you don't include the deaths of the groups you're excluding. To do otherwise is deceptive and inaccurate. Which, while many people feel is "unsafe" and "dangerous".. I feel a .1% chance of dying annually is still within my comfort zone for safety. Heh..I never said that there isn't a chance I could bounce..I know I could. I just said that I believe that it's a safe sport in my opinion (again, unless you go by the dictionary definition of 'safe", but if you do then nothing we do in life is safe..nothing at all). could I bounce? absolutely. I could choke on my dinner..have a stroke...get into a car accident...get shot... but when I do a risk analysis for what my comfort level is at any given risk level...I am comfortable with skydiving. If I wasn't..I wouldn't be jumping. (as a side note...at what point do people stop saying that they are "new to the sport"? 5 years? 10? 100 jumps? 1000 jumps? 5000 jumps? what is no longer new enough to be looked down upon and considered naive? Serious question...not facitious..) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Where is my cut off? I'm not sure of the exact cut off...but more than 30 a year. if the risk crept up above 1%, I think I'd start reconsidering...but even then, I'm not sure. at 2% I'd definately consider it unsafe. Why do you assume that I don't know someone that has died??? That's a huge assumption (and a wrong one). Why would it change just because I KNOW someone who has died? KNowing someone or not knowing someone who has died doesn't change the risk...it just makes it more emotional. Knowing someone who got killed in an auto accident doesn't change the level of danger of driving..just makes it more personal and emotional. But the risk remains the same. Why would you assume that knowing someone that died would change how I felt? (unless it was my husband..if my husband bounced, yes...I'd quit.) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

I never said that they were equal... I just said that roller coasters aren't without risk, too....so if they are trying to say "safe" means "without risk", then they can't do roller coasters, either. So obviously their definition of "safe" means "with risks that I consider to be small enough that I still consider the activity "safe".." which means it's a subjective opinion... therefore, is skydiving safe? depends on your definition of 'safe'. For me...for my definition and my 'cut off' of how much risk an activity must entail for me to no longer consider it 'safe'...to me, skydiving is safe. (again, not to confuse that to mean "without risk") but we've established that to him, roller coasters are 'safe' but skydiving is not 'safe"..so where is his cut off line? How much risk must be involved for something to no longer be considered 'safe'? -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Apples and oranges. Compare the number of people who ride roller coasters every year to the total number of people who jump from airplanes every year. to cut out all of the tandem and single-jumpers makes the comparison invalid...since most roller coaster riders, too, only do it once or twice a year... What I see is that your definition of "safe" simply means "lower risk" than my definition of "safe". You're still looking at the level of risk and assessing "safe" to your opinion of "low enough". for me..skydiving falls under the catagory of "low enough" that I call it "safe". -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Just goes to show that your definition of "safe" does not mean "without risk"...since 3 people die annually from roller coasters. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

and how is that different than everything else we do in life? I drive very conservatively and very defensively. I follow the rules (often to my husband's chagrin) and do everything I can to make it as safe as possible. I can still get creamed taking my daughter to gymnastics class..or going to the grocery store. I lock the doors on my house and we take steps to try to ensure our safety...but every year that are many break ins in which people are killed. Knowing someone who has died from one thing or another doesn't make the risk greater or make it more real or whatever...just makes it more emotional to the person who has experienced it. I agree that skydiving has risk...but I believe it to be safe according to my definition of safe. (my definition of safe doesn't mean "without any risk"...I doubt that anyone's definition of safe truly means that, anyways.) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

Of course it's POSSIBLE... but for me...it certainly wouldn't be enjoyable. At least, not at this point. I remember when 2-3 jumps in an entire weekend and I was tired. This past weekend I did 10 jumps...and yes, I'm very sore...but it's getting easier and easier to do more jumps. I think it's possible to do 20 jumps...of course. but I, at this stage of jumping, wouldn't want to do it simply because I get too tired... (but maybe by the time I have 380 jumps I will feel differently!) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

I just got a neptune this past weekend..so I've only done 10 jumps on it so far.. but I LOVE it...I think it's great. =) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

We take our three children almost every single weekend (tomorrow is a special occasion, so they are NOT coming with us).. they love being at the DZ...and we love having them there.

*nods* understand and absolutely agree... but this isn't someone who is a RW flyer who's talking about BASE jumping.. wouldn't exit order and timing be pretty basic knowledge requirements for someone with any sort of instructional ratings? (and that was actually one of the questions we were asked on our oral exam for our A...exit separation) I did have to chuckle when the other guy said that now I could "set him straight".. heh..just the mental picture of me walking in and saying, "I know you have 20 years on me in the sport, and I only have 40 jumps and you have every rating and license available...but someone at dropzone.com said..." And you think that students have a hard time listening and changing? yeah...he'll listen to me, the 40-jump-wonder. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

the person who told me that the 45* angle was a good idea was a jumpmaster who is a master rigger, been jumping for something like 15-20 years, is a tandem master, AFF instructor, PRO rating, almost 9000 jumps....someone I respect intensely. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

HAHAHAHAHA... Ok...so out of all of the pictures I"ve seen posted here...that was the funniest to me of them all. that's hysterical...thank you for the morning crack-up. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings

any idea what caused that plane to be sliced into thin pieces?? -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings