GeorgiaDon

This is now the third thread in which you've posted this and been told it's dead wrong. It's simply wrong. Period. If you post it a fourth time, it will still be wrong. A perfect example of what this thread and the associated link was about. "Don't bother me with facts, my mind is already made up". _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

or a low flying eagle? Wouldn't "l'eagle" be a French eagle? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

All true enough. However Niki1 asked "I was wondering what document do I carry that could show me to be a leagle citizen." Since that was in the initial post of the thread, I assumed that was the issue we were discussing. I just can't seem to get the hang of this thread drift "make up your own question and answer it" thing. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

How many of those require you to prove US citizenship or legal immigration status? #4 applies with regard to a passport, but the driver's license varies according to the State. I've never been asked to prove citizenship to donate blood, make a credit card purchase, or any of those other things on your list. I think most Americans would get very pissed off if they had to prove their legal status every time they made a credit or debit card purchase. True enough. Should citizens be subject to the same rule? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Thanks for your insightful and helpful response. Is that the new conservative position on the matter? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

According to the Arizona law, a driver's license should suffice, as long as it is issued by a State that requires proof of legal status (US citizen or legal immigrant) before issuing said license. I wonder how well that will work in practice, as it depends on police officers knowing the law for every State, to judge which driver's licenses meet the criteria and which do not. If you can afford the fee, a passport card would be your best bet if you want to be sure to avoid hassles. On your other point about the National Identity Card, I've long said that something of that nature is required if we are to have any hope of being able to sort out the illegals from citizens and legitimate immigrants. The tin foil hat crowd, however, seems to think such an ID will allow Obama et al to read their nefarious thoughts or something. Without reliable ID, I guess the police will just have to use their "illegal-dar" to magically discern illegals from legals (but no racial profiling allowed!). Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Some scientist is going to find *that* fossil and spend the next 20 years scratching his head, going "WTF???" Many such fossils are now known. In fact the transition from terrestrial mammals to whales is one of the best documented evolutionary histories. The fossil record also corroborates hypotheses, based on DNA sequence similarity, about the origin of whales in the hoofed mammals (artiodactyls) similar to small deer. The only people scratching their heads and going "wtf" are the creationists. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Here at the University of Georgia, the athletic association offices and sports museum are in a building named after two great UGA coaches: the Butts-Mehre building. Pronounced Butt-smear. When I first came here and was on a campus tour, I commented that butt-smear was hardly preferable to Mere Butts, and didn't they have any other coaches worthy of naming a building after? The subsequent discussion included "Yankee", "feathers", and "tar", so I made so excuse about needing to get back to the lab and skedaddled. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Story on CNN today. Apparently the police were contacted by her lawyer some time after the alleged "incident" (which happened in October 2006), but the woman rebuffed several attempts by the police to interview her. In January 2007 the police were told by the lawyer that the woman was pursuing a "civil remedy", and that she no longer wanted police involvement. The police dropped the matter as the woman would not consent to an interview or provide evidence. Two years later (January 2009) she came in and wanted to give a statement, which she read from a prepared text. The police consider the matter closed unless new evidence comes to light. Sounds like a shakedown to me. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

If you think Tom is a liberal, that might be an indication you are very far out on the right side of the curve. What's happened to Tom anyway? His input always made me think, even if I didn't always (or even often) agree. I miss his perspective. I guess he's got a real life. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

You have GOT to be kidding me... I take it you believe homosexuals should not be allowed to be police officers (or "police community support officers", whatever that is)? What other professions do you think should be forbidden based on sexual orientation? Would you refuse to be treated by a gay doctor? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

I don't get the impression that Mexico is a big draw for international investment. The US still is. Why would you want to screw that up? It has nothing to do with PC. It has everything to do with being a bunch of stupid ideas. Why do you care so much about what Mexico does? Sure, their government is hypocritical in criticizing us for doing some things they also do. Who cares, the Mexican government is outrageously incompetent at everything. There is a reason Mexicans want to come here, and Americans aren't sneaking into Mexico. All in all I think we're better off not trying to emulate anything the Mexican government does. I'm genuinely curious about one of your comments, the one regarding voting in the presidential election. I am quite certain it is illegal for a non-citizen to vote at any level, be it federal, state, or local. You imply that the restriction applies only to the presidential election. Can you offer any specific examples of situations in which it is legal for non-citizens to vote for any level of public office in any jurisdiction in the US? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Recognizing that these are Mexican laws (I'll assume that, since I haven't verified that they aren't the usual right-wing exaggerated BS), and assuming you're actually interested in whether or not they should be applied in the US (an unlikely proposition), I'll bite. Fine, as long as you are willing to accept the loss of competitiveness in international business. Believe it or not, English (or American for you conservatives) is not the only language in the world, and if you want to trade with other countries you just might need people able to speak their language. Also America has a long tradition of attracting the best and brightest people from around the world to legally immigrate, but I guess in Conservativeland you can tell them to leave their damn funny-talking kids behind and they will still be happy to come here. Anyway we don't need no foreign help, everybody knows that Americans are just naturally better than everybody else at everything. What is "this nation's language", officially? You seem to have skipped a step here, i.e. enacting a constitutional amendment to establish an official language. Interesting that the Founding Fathers didn't seem to think that was important, and they were in hindsight remarkably prescient in crafting a constitution that can cope with all kinds of circumstances they could never have anticipated. Also, if you expect the rest of the world to subject themselves to English only if they want to do business with Americans, you have an exaggerated notion of America's importance in the world. It really does seem you conservatives want America to become an isolated little backwater, cut off from the rest of the world as much as possible. Non-residents (and even legal residents) have neither the right to vote or the right to hold political office. That's pretty much what citizenship is all about. When I was a legal permanent resident (green card holder), it was my understanding that I was not eligible for any government assistance programs. Which was never an issue for me, but it did piss me off that I had to pay taxes to support all those programs but was ineligible for coverage, even though I was a legal immigrant who came in through the front door. Also, why should a legal immigrant not be able to buy health insurance, or pay out of pocket for health care? Again, if you tell people they can legally immigrate, but if they or their families get sick they can't get health care, don't expect too many takers. Seriously? I guess you want the trade imbalance to get even worse? Or you're really really set on that backwater thing with the rest of the world passing us by. Maybe rules like this are part of why Mexico's economy sucks and ours doesn't. Still, no cost to too great to pay for a little perceived "security". Again with the restrictions on foreign investment. You must really like the Mexican economy. Plus I'm pretty sure their would be constitutional issues. Also, there are existing restrictions on foreign ownership of certain industries deemed to be of "national security interest". Finally, when I lived in Ontario there were a lot of cottages on lakes and rivers that were owned by Americans, so you won't object when Canada goes tit-for-tat and confiscates those properties? Can't help but break a few eggs I guess, and anyway they should have bought in America not Canada. That whole friendly border thing is so overrated. 9. Foreigners may have no protests; no demonstrations, no waving of a foreign flag, no political organizing, no bad-mouthing our president or his policies. These will lead to deportation. * * * * * * * * You really don't like the Constitution, do you? I believe we do deport illegals when we catch them. As far as "all assets will be taken", maybe you need to get familiar with due process. Do you think the value of the confiscated assets will pay for housing the alleged illegals in this country, feeding them, etc while the confiscation proceedings go through the courts? Overall, I'd say these "laws" seriously disrespect the Constitution, and are a good roadmap to a third world economy as an insular backwater ignored and shunned by the rest of the world. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

How many years do you think it might take for these cases to work their way through the courts? What do you suggest businesses and people who have had their livelihoods disrupted should do in the interim? Why shouldn't BP, or any entity who causes harm to an innocent third party, be required to redress that harm in a timely manner, in order to minimize the extent of the damage? I'm really amazed that so many people seem to believe that the best practice for a government, during a crisis, is to do nothing. You conservatives object to efforts to minimize the damage from the recession, you object to efforts to salvage the economy of the Gulf Coast, you object to efforts to help people after a natural disaster. I'm sure if there was a massive epidemic of bubonic plague you would object to the government distributing antibiotics. All the better if it allows you to take a swipe at Obama (and/or liberals) in the process. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

OK. Then I suggest you personally volunteer to give whatever property you may own to the people whose land and livelihoods are being taken from them. I'm sure you won't mind at all being one of those broken eggs. After all, demanding that others give up what you won't would be hypocrisy, wouldn't it? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

While I resent greatly the closure of any parkland to American citizens because of illegal crossing activity, the FOX news article seems to be rife with the usual inaccurate hyperbole. The closed area within the Wildlife Refuge extends for about 5 miles, and North for 3/4 to about 1 mile, a total area of 3500 acres or less than 3% of the area of the park. See here for a map. Nothing close to the 80 miles described in the FOX article. Also, Interstate 8 is no-where close to the Refuge, or the border, so I've no idea what they're talking about there. The US Fish and Wildlife Service issued the following statement today (see here for one source): " Several media outlets have been inaccurately reporting that a massive stretch of the US border at Buenos Aires National Wildlife Refuge (NWR) was recently closed. Buenos Aires NWR in southern Arizona has not been closed to the public. Nearly 5-years ago, a very small portion of the Refuge closed to public access due to public safety concerns. However, the remainder (97%) of the refuge's 118,000 acres is open to the public for recreational activities such as hiking, camping, birdwatching, and seasonal hunting. Recent news items further falsely stated that the closure extends from the border 80-miles to the north. This distance is far from accurate. On October 6, 2006 roughly 3500 acres, or 3% of the Refuge, was closed to public access due to human safety concerns. At that time there was a marked increase in violence along the border due to human and drug trafficking. The closed area extends north from the international border roughly ¾ of a mile. A notice of the closure, including a map has been on the Refuge website since 2006. At this time there are no plans to reopen this southernmost 3/4-mile wide portion of the Refuge. However, since 2006 the Refuge has experienced a significant decline in violent activity in the area thanks to ongoing cooperation between the US Fish and Wildlife Service and US Customs and Border Protection. The Refuge will reopen the area at such time that it is determined to be safe for visitors." Incidentally, for all those advocating a border fence along the whole or much of the US/Mexico border, surely you realize that such a fence would result in the closure of land along the length of the fence, an area many hundred times the area currently closed. There is no way the Border Patrol would be able to patrol the fence and still allow camping/hiking/ranching etc right up to the fence, at least a mile or more "buffer zone" would be needed. Also construction of the fence requires confiscation of private property from landowners, in some cases decimating ranches and farms that have belonged to families for generations. Here is an article from Dec 2007, but the issue remains much the same today: "On Dec. 7, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said he would give landowners in South Texas 30 days to consent to letting federal officials survey their properties to determine whether they are suitable for a planned border fence. If the owners don't give permission, Chertoff said the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) will turn to the courts to gain temporary access. If the agency finds the land appropriate for fencing and landowners refuse to cooperate, the department will seek court action to confiscate the land. (Los Angeles Times, Brownsville Herald, Dec. 8) Chertoff said the DHS needs access to 225 miles of noncontiguous land, most of it in Texas and Arizona, in order to build 370 miles of border fencing by the end of 2008."The door is still open to talk, but it's not open for endless talk," Chertoff said. "We won't pay more than market price for the land," he added. Ranchers and farmers in Texas, where much of the land along the border is privately owned, say the fence would cut off their access to the Rio Grande, the only regional source of fresh water. Business groups also complain that the fencing will slow cross-border traffic crucial for local economies. Juan D. Salinas, a judge and chief administrator of the local government in Hidalgo County, Texas, said the community opposes the planned fence based on economic, cultural and environmental concerns. "I tell you, on this one issue, the Farm Bureau, the United Farm Workers, Democrats and Republicans, white, black, brown, everybody is against the border fence. It just doesn't make sense," said Salinas. "It's a disappointment that again the Department of Homeland Security is not listening to local taxpayers."" Building a fence along the whole border seems to be an overly simplistic response to the illegal immigration problem, easily circumvented by the would-be immigrants but with major adverse consequences for people who live or own land on the border. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

From the article linked by skyrider: "This is the new face of "gun control" in the age of Obama." "... especially now that, thanks to the NRA and the Brady Campaign joining forces, "mental health" records are being sent by the states to the Obama administration. " The article strongly insinuates that the police action is related to Obama or the Obama administration. Typical right-wing tactics: fan the flames of paranoia, then use that fear to solicit donations. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

And that right there is why the Texas Board of Education wanted to write him out of the history textbooks. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Funny how he said nothing of the sort. He was replying to my post in which I wondered if people really believed that Obama personally ordered the raid. Believe it or not, it is possible for people to disagree with the police action in this case without feeling the need to blame it on Obama. It does seem, though, that the people who are most vocal about 2nd amendment rights seem to have a tendency towards an irrational paranoia about Obama. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Regarding the article you posted, what the hell does Obama have to do with any of that? Do members of/subscribers to oregonfirearms.org really believe that the White House had anything to do with the police overstepping their limits in this specific incident? Or is this just another opportunity for a drive-by swipe at Obama? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Not to suggest that I agree with the police tactics in this incident (because I don't), but how many people did the police kill in this incident? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

I wonder how many skydivers, liberal, conservative, libertarian, or whatever, have called in sick on a sunny day so they could go jumping? Do you think conservatives are less likely to do so than liberals? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Deja vu all over again. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

I'm surprised that someone who seems (from the general tone of your posts) to be against "big government" expects the government to build and maintain fleets of skimmers, booms sufficient to protect thousands of miles of coastline, plus the trained crews to operate all of that. It would (as a wild ass guess) cost 100 million to build the fleet, plus many more millions to maintain a state of readiness and pay the crews to be on standby while training so as to be able to respond effectively. This is all an investment you think the taxpayer should shoulder? Why shouldn't the petroleum industry be required to maintain the ability to contain a spill? They're the ones reaping the profit, while putting others at risk. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

I had to hunt for your "correction", and finally found it in the "in reply to" part of a post you wrote in response to Amazon. It's not surprising people missed it there; that's not very legit changing what people are responding to after the fact. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)