Ron

I'll throw my 2 cents in now. The first thing I do on breakoff is start to cup air....I turn away while cupping. Alot of times this makes me the highest person already while I watch others try to track and start to dive. After I turn 180, I thenstick my legs all the way out and bring my arms in at the same time. Here's the cool part. As I start moving I roll my shoulders (I already have most of this done due to the cupping) and push my arms down to about a 45 degree angle (again mostly already done from cupping)... Now the ultra cool part. As I start moving I rotate my arms from palms down to Palms up....this really makes it easy to roll my shoulders...and I really start to smoke!!! I learned this on a 110 way back in 97....I was on the outter ring, I had plenty of time to play with my track....I started tracking myself into a bad spot. play with it Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I dont have a clue what he is talking about.... A canopy will always recover. It might take alot of time....sometimes more time that you have altitude, but even when I was jumping a 69 it would recover.....from like 800 feet, but it would recover. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Talk and hang out with your INSTUCTORS. Take almost eveything you read on this post and before you decide that it is correct, find an S&TA, or an Instructor and talk to them. Alot of people on this website have ALOT more posts than jumps. Thats not saying they are not allowed to have an opinion, and voice that opinion. However, get all opinons verified by someone you trust, and use common sense. There are some on this forum that know what they are talking about....and some that don't have a clue. Verify everything....That includes this post. Have fun, pull, and for Gods sake don't downsize to fast. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Lake Wales will have some of CSS Casa's this season. Raford NC has a 100 series Casa....It is not owned by the drop zone, but it sometimes flies there. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Way wrong.....The Vengence dives like hell compared to the Stiletto. I had around 1000 jumps on my Stiletto 107, and about 700 on a ST120 before I jumped a buddies Vengence. The very first thing I noticed is that it went from pilot chute to snivel rather quick, but stayed with the slider by the canopy for a long time....The slider then sort of jumped down the lines. The second thing I noticed was that it dove like hell. I had a hard time at first setting up for the landing due to the dive in regular flight. It also dove alot more in the hook. It did flare very well. I jumped the Vengence for a while, then went back to the Stiletto. I think the Stiletto performs all around better. The Velocity is a total different animal. I have a V96, and at first I hated it. The I started to really LOVE it. It takes 50-100 jumps to get really used to it. Now I fly it all the time, and my brand new ST107 sits in my other rig. It opens great...a little bit twitchy. But slow. My old FX88 used to kill me opening so damn fast. I was scared of the Velocity because of this, but I have only had one hard opening on a buddes of mine. He sent it off for a line set and now its great. Toggles are not as responsive as a Stilettos, but the riser presure is less. It takes ALOT of altitude to hook. But it can be landed straight in. This is not a canopy for everyone. High Performance Canopies Malfuction at a higher rate, are much more violent when the do Mal, and lose ALOT more altitude when it happens. Small errors have the ability to KILL you. Even at light wingloadings these are not for the inexperianced. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't have an RSL....I would say keep it till you have your first cut away *where you pull both handles*. As for when to chop.... 1.Look up. ask your self "Hey (insert name), can I safely land this (Streamer, lineover, broken lines, spinning ball of shit?) 2. Try to fix problem....release BOTH toggles if you don't have line twists...kick like hell if you do. Have a hard deck, and know when to say..."Ah hell, I was almost due for a repack anyway". Mine is 1,000 feet, or as soon as I feel it's not worth trying to fix anymore. (This can be SECONDS, depending on the violance of the Mal.) 3. Fixed???? a.yes Land it...good job!!!! b.NO. Cut away and buy beer!!!! Good job!!! Ron 2,500 jumps 6 cut aways.(yeah I know). "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Angle of Incidence is usually set by the aircraft design. They do not change on fixed wing aircraft. It is determined by the difference in angle of the thrust line, vs the center of the wing. Canopies have a cool feature in that the AoI can be changed. But by changing the AoI with a canopy....the Angle of Attack which is the center of Airfoil in relation to the relative wind, also changes.... It is changing the AoA that makes the canopy go faster. As for what Quade said about Drag...he is correct. I hinted at it in my first post, but looking back at it it was not communicated as well as I liked. Drag increases as a square of the airspeed. As the airspeed increases the drag increases exponentialy. As you and your best friend "Super Swooper Canopy X" Start to turn you increase the AoA of the canopy. The "Super Swooper Canopy X" and you both start to speed up. As the speed increases, the drag increases on both you and your "Super Swooper Canopy X". This dive will continue until: A. The drag on the canopy increases to be more than the drag on your body. This will cause your body to continue to speed up at a rate that the "Super Swooper Canopy X" cannot keep up with. Then since you are going faster than the canopy, you will start to swing out from under (relative term here, since the canopy will most likley be beside or below you realtive to the horizon at first) the canopy. B. You stab your brakes in a last ditch effort to not become one with "Terra Firma" and join the "Femur Club". When you stab your brakes you increase the drag on the canopy and this lets you speed up faster than the canopy, sooner. C. You hit the ground and Die. Sorry could not resist "C" again. Ron... PS. on a really funny note the Fantasy of Flight swoop meet. Very high winds. 8 jumpers left, all flying over 2 to 1 wingloadings... 1 landed off with a minor pilot chute problem. 1 landed dry....having never even touched the water. 1 managed to touch the water, and get out of the pond via the side. 5 made REALLY cool splashes....I have photos. It was then canceled. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The canopy gains speed due to the angle of attack of the wing. You have to trade potential energy (Altitude) for Kinetic (Speed). Gliders work on the same concept. To speed up they have to dive. The only way to do this with a canopy is to pull both front risers....But this will only increase the angle of attack a little. When you turn, you place the canopy into a dive. This dive will continue until: A. The jumper comes out from under the canopy due to the difference between the drag on the canopy and the jumper. Durring the dive the canopy will continue to speed up. You can increase the drag on the canopy by pulling the toggles, and this will pull you out faster. B. You slam into the ground and die. Have fun!! Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

One thing that has not been brought up yet.... Most pilots (VFR) fly thinking that the engine is gonna quit on them....And we are always looking for a place to land. So even after you make the choice to try and make it to the landing area....always keep checking to make sure....alot of times you can be fine, then it seems like you hit a wall and stop moving. At times like this, it might be better to turn around and use the wind to push you back to a good landing site, or turn 90 degrees left or right and head to another site. Also.....If there are 2 approaches to the landing area, one over mean nasty looking trees, and another over a big soft friendly looking field....Fly over the big soft field. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You forgot to add that they get coaching from Team Frost. I know a good bit about the Airforce team.... You said they might do 30 4way jumps a jumps a mth....Thats a lot of free 4 way jumps. I think the top Airforce team did ~150 team jumps last year. Which is more than Frost did, and almost most more than Nemesis did this year. And more than most of the Intermediate teams. The "New" guys already have 10 jumps this year, and 2 hrs. of tunnel time. Next week they are going to have a week long train up at Perris Valley CA. They will also have a Civilian coach there for the whole week. But in my comparison to the Knights it is fairly good.... It's just that the Airforce team has to do everything, as opposed to the GK's having different teams. And the AFA team might only do 150 jumps, but most Intermediate teams do around that number or less. The GK's do 1,000 jumps....Again Top Open teams do around that # or less. So in the Intermediate class...they are just like the GK's. Ron Frost 98-02 82 Airborne "All American Freefall Team" (Demo team, comp team, Instructor) 99-02 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Locical... Makes sense.... It will probley never work. It most likley would never get passed. But according to what you have....then Nemesis, Bees, Vision. Would all of had to go Open this year. The Bees and Tunnel Vision would not be able to try for Advanced Gold next year either. They, are by definition Weekend teams...Teams that have jobs, and have to pay for jumps/gear...ect. Should the weekend teams have to compete against Airspeed? The Advanced class was created to allow the weekend/non pro jumpers a chance to stand on a podium. This would have made them compete in open...and the super cool jump off situation would not have happened. This would have robbed these teams,,and everyone on the ground of the tension. That would have sucked. It also limits the % of performance in the lower classes. I personally think that a weekend team (with no pro's should be able to do a solid 15....It has really yet to happen). In fact only three times have I seen a Weekend team post over a 14 on a 10 round meet. Nemesis once at Fantasy of Flight, Frost at Nationals and Bees at the NSL playoffs. The top weekend teams have been posting 13-14 (minus any ringers) since 99. But I would hate to put a cap on them. And besides the move up rule would take over. Looking at the Nationals...There are very easy to see levels. Intermediate it is harder to see.....a 15 in Intermediate does not equate to Advanced draw. However, there were levels in Intermediate. 2 Teams pulled away from the pack. One was sandbaging, and the other was the top Airforce team...they don't pay for jumps, gear..ect. Airforce is the Intermediate version of the Knights. 10 to 13.7 Advanced. Thats not alot of disatnce...and there are alot of teams that can fit in that class. Semi pro...this year only 2 teams were in the void of Advanced/Pro they both posted 14.9 and 15.3. Pro teams that did 17 or better. All of these teams have or had skydiving as the job they do. Knights, Airspeed, Majik. Still I would hate to limit what a team in a class can do....If a weekend team can do a 17....good for them. And you didn't have an answer for a new team..One that was not at last years nationals.....Or a team made up of other teammembers? Not that it is a bad idea....Just has alot of working out left to do. Maybe a rework of the %....0.7 would have let a team with a 15.2 go Advanced....but that might be to high. It would be better however. And the Move up rule would have to go. Until a total rework can be done...lets fix the problem we have now....Pro's should not be allowed to compete for Advanced medals...Or Intermedate teams should not be allowed to hire Advanced winners. The current proposal does this. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You could explain it to me.... Just a thought. Try to use small words, and not to much math. Questions: 1. where would this years teams been put? 2. When would they have known what class they are in? 3. How would the results have changed this years standings? 4. How would it Eliminate Sandbagging and Player coaches? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You and others sugested the "Math" solution... And yes, the reason that it didn't fly has alot to do with how the "system" already is. However, for your plan to work... It would have to get passed....which it most likley would not. It would require alot more record keeping. It would require only one draw, and you would not know what class you were in until after the competition. That takes alot of the fun out of it. If you looked at prior meets to do the math. It could still be used to cheat. According to the "Math" of the whole years meets Frost could have gone Advanced..We had a one rd meet, a Camera caused Zero in another, and one just bad meet (for a 13.5 year AVG. which put us below Nemesis, Beez, Even Tunnel Vision I think.) ..but we did a 14.9 and the winner of Advanced did a 13.7. So that does not really work....You could just sandbag all your meets. "Damn my camera broke again", or "Opps, funneled again". I think the Math way could increase the "Sandbagging" And I could always have aPro on the team, but he just gets factored in like the rest. How would you factor in a team that didn't do any meets? I just think that you need to limit the Big Dogs from playing in the kiddie pool. Open to Advanced, or Advanced to Intermediate. This proposed rule does that pretty well. There are still people in Open that have never medaled in Open, or Advanced...Me for one. Or people in Advanced that could go Intermediate....But I think that this rule will keep most teams from doing it. Ron Besides....I am a stupid skydiver....I hate math. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hell almost everyone has been personally asked to come to the SDU coaches course Good course, but not hard to get into. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you read 4way.org We looked at making a numerical seperation for the classes...Like some shooting sports use. It didn't seem to gather much support, and was such a different approach that it would meet with alot of resistance. We tried to come up with a rule that had a chance of passing. To do this it had to be a smaller change that still produced the effect we were looking for. There were several options (only one draw and class, using math to decide who goes into what class, good old peer preasure), but this rule is not so new that it will meet with alot of difficulty getting passed, didn't require a math degree, and most importantly worked. I for one HATE any kind of handicap. I have yet to see one that works well. The classes should have rules that limit who can enter it....I think that limiting someone who has medaled in a higher class from entering in a lower one works. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The ideal Mantis position has the forearms at 45 deg.... At this angle you are the most effective.... Less, you are holding more air, and not able to delflect it. More, you are spilling more air, not deflecting it. If you spill more...Duh you will fall faster. If you cup more....again Duh you will fall slower. But the ideal is to be at 45 deg which is the most effective angle. This, plus the cupping of air by your upper body, and your upper legs being flat most of the time requires adding lead. You can arch more, or spill more air with your arms to make it faster.... But with your arms at 45 deg...It should slow you down. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well I have seen his Program work, and it is good. I also never said I ONLY look at angle....I use time just like everyone else. Here in Zhills the FF go out first.....They don't drift as much as a RW group. It is easy to get above them. The Angle approach has worked for me....I am not even going to start a discussion about it.....It has, and will continue to be beat to death long after I am dead. It is ground speed vs airspeed. If an Aircraft was doing 80 into an 80 MPH wind....and 10 solos left seperate exits and no one pulled.....the bodies would almost pile up. It has worked for me for almost 10 years. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Tracking perpendicular to the jump run sounds great in theory.... But in practice not very realistic... I can see it now....a 10 way with 5 people tracking one way, and 5 the other..... I am a big fan of using the departure angle of the group before me not just time. In a strong headwind, you will not go far fast....But the angle WILL be correct. Somethings about this you need to ask. 1. What were the winds aloft doing? 2. How fast was the fall rates between the two groups.... A bad freeflyer who corks alot is not going very fast for the whole dive....also alot of freeflyers are adding flat work...again slowing them down. a slower group will drift more in high winds. If you were the slower group it could cause you to drift and lessen your seperation. 3. Were the people on the 1st group going headdown, or were they not perfectly headdown? If not, they can track like hell across the sky. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well your right, But a high wingloading make shit happen faster, and alot ot people don't take the time to really learn what they are doing. Like I said before, if you can't qualify for a PRO with the canopy you have now, you should not downsize. But thats just my opinion, follow it if you want. If you don't want to, and don't feel like learning all you can. Its your choice. Yes I know that many people can handle it....but I also know that many can't. If you can good, if you can't....well I hope you like hospital food. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It would be hard to practice solo.... You need to have someone tell you if you are in the right position.....Or video that you can look at. Anyway it is almost impossible to coach via Email. Its like an advertisment I saw years ago.... "Get your black belt by mail!!!" I was ROFL.... What were you supposed to do? Punch the mailman? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

WWW.omniskore.com Look at the dive pools. WWW.skyleague.com. In the store they have a program for a computer that shows the blocks being done.... SDU also has one, and 499 is still good. However Airspeed uses a very different continuity. Its not wrong, but very different. But from Randoms to Blocks, from the Blocks to Randoms, and Random to Random....you just need to watch a team that uses the same continuity that you plan on useing. Again WWW.omniskore.com Order the nationals video. Watch the Intermediate and Advanced. Pick your slot on exit and watch that person in the skydive. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It is the same unstability that makes the Pitts S1 a better Acrobatic plane than a Cessna 150. You have to fly the Pitts to be stable, you can let go of the Cessna, and it will right itself. In the Mantis you have to fly your body. The Tunnel is a great way to learn this positon. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Chuck...Underdog, I was talking about Bildo's 450 jumps.....not Underdogs... I understand that there are people with the skills to be able to handle high wingloadings....But I bet most have been jumping awhile, and learned what they needed in small steps. There needs to be progressive steps to downsizing...I don't see how you can go from Student to 1.8 in 450 jumps. As for why the 360 turns....If you can't do them then you don't really know all aspects of the canopy you are flying...Why not learn all you can about the wing you have before you start learning a new one? One that reduces the margin of error, and increases the danger? Oh well I am done with this.... Get a 46 and hook yourself crazy...I hope you live, but it is your choice. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ok, back on my soapbox.... A 1.7 loaded anything...will still kill you if you mess up. We have had cars alot longer that skydiving. Teenagers still kill themselves with fast cars....and the cars are safer....period. I went out and got myself a 1.4 loaded Stiletto years ago....back when there were waivers to get them. I had 370 jumps. I was VERY current, have a pilots license (so I know about flying stuff) and had been jumping a 97. Alot of people told me I was crazy and was going to die....Hah, what do they know. I went right out and got my 1.4 loaded Stiletto...and my first weekend I hooked it right smack dab into the ground....Damn that sucked. I didn't do any serious damage..man was I lucky. If it had been the 97 (1.7), I would have been hurt/killed. As for the comment about tunnel rats....Where have you been? Tunnel rats have come of age long ago....I know of one guy who used to work at Pigeon Forge, that was awsome in the Air....He also thought he should be able to handle canopies....he hooked himself into the ground....ALOT...I am still amazed he is not dead...He doesn't jump anymore that I know of....Hospitals suck, and he got tired of living in them. My friend and piece partner was a tunnel rat....he is dead now. 1000 jumps, no main, and no reserve. He was great in the Air, but somehow forgot to stop the skydive..... It is not about can you fly it, it is about can you handle it when the shit hits the fan. High loading canopies mal more (line twists...ect), the mal is much more violent, you lose altitude much quicker, and you have to think faster. What do you do if someone turns in front of you at 100 feet? Think quick, and act right, or you are dead. As for training...yep it has gotten better. But people still die from having an ego larger than their skill level. And thats just fatalities.....how about people who hurt themselves so bad that they never fully recover? How about just breaking a femur and the cost (time off from work/medical expenses/strain on a family) of the accident? Most of these never get reported. But they happen almost every month. Why let it be you? Can you land that 1.8 loaded canopy in a 10 meter circle 10 times out of 10? How about with different approaches? Lets say 2 straight in, 2 90 turn's, 2 180 turn's, 2 270 turn's, and 2 360 turn's???? I can do it with my 107's, thats why I now have the 96 Velocity. Hell,I just requalified for my PRO with my 96 Velocity. As I have always said....."You can jump something smaller if you live through the canopy you have now" Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

yes, you can put the Tail on the Outside center. You can build any formation as a mirror image. Take the dive pool and hold it up to the light, look at it from the backside....Its a mirror. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334