Ron

Liz listen to what these people have to say.... Learn to do CRW...It will teach you loads about your canopy.(any swooper who has not done any CRW, give it a try, you will be amazed). Learn on a big canopy....you don't need a small or high performance wing to learn to swoop....You will not get as much distance out of a Tri160 than say a ST160. but the extra material will keep things slow for now, and give you an extra saftey margin. I can out swoop a lot of people with a TRI when they are on a Stiletto....It's the pilot, not the wing. I can do a good swoop on a TRI, they dig out the Stiletto to keep in one piece and they loose. Yes, if they have a clue they will beat me, but thats why I have a V96 and ST107 as well. The biggest thing for me to tell you is don't rush yourself. You said you were conservative, thats good. It will keep you alive. Can you land 100% of the time standing? Can you land in the peas 10 out of 10 times. (someone will say that you can't alwasy do that due to traffic, but watching for traffic is part of learning to swoop.) If not....don't push it till you can. If so, learn the "flat" turns. These will save your ass. Learn to handle the speed of a swoop by using both front risers in a straight in approach before you add the danger of speed, and an un-level wing. When you do start to do turns start with slow carving turns 45,90,180. Don't move to the next increase until you can land 100% in the peas, and on your feet. Most will tell you that this is way to long to wait. Well the largest segment of our group that has killed themselves under canopy this past year had 300 jumps and a 1.5 wingload. In fact only one person in the low turn deaths had over 600 jumps. Take your time and be safe. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK DIVEOUT is the person I am using as an example. He got to small of a canopy, with too little experiance. He know KNOWS it....He didn't then. Just like most of us, we think we know everything, until we move on, and look back a realize we didn't know shit. What ever anyone says...jump #'s and time in sport do matter. Ask anyone with over a thousand jumps. Its only the new people who are trying to justify what they are doing that say jumps don't matter. If you have 100,200,300, ect jumps that is only 100,200 or 300 times that you have landed a parachute..there is training that can help you progress, but only experiance will really work. Experiance plus knowlege is the best route. But knowledge is nothing without the experiance, and the practice of actually doing it. As I always say "you can jump a smaller canopy if you live through the one you have now". Also, don't be afraid to talk to an S&TA, and have a reckless person grounded. While he is sitting on the ground teach him. If he won't lisen, give him directions to leave the DZ. Tell him if he wants to come back, he is welcome. But he will sit in a canopy control class, and if he starts acting up, he will be told to leave again. This way he learns, or kills himself at some other DZ. Don't be afraid....you are trying to save him from pain or DEATH. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

IAF...Tandem progression....same thing "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This is not to start the great debate..... It is just to find out how DZ.commers learned. Also give time in sport, and total jumps. Ron For me it was a Tandem in TN. Then S/L in ARK. back in OCT 93. 2,500 jumps "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Heres a thing.... First off I think a 1.4 at 100 jumps is too much... (Oh well that another fight.) Try to tell him he should not get it. Show him the fatlity reports that show 1/3 of the deaths have been people under good canopies.... Show him where all but 2 of those were were people "Hooking it" Show him where all but one of the dead had less than 600 jumps. Also show him that MOST of the DEAD had 300 jumps and a 1.5 wingloading. If that does not work... You got an S&TA?????? A DZO???? Have them tell this jumper that he will not jump a V96 at his DZ till he has the recomended # of jumps that the manufactorer says... He will be pissed, and might try to jump somewhere else, but YOU did everything you could. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I am going to say this just one time.... I have no problem with what she or anyone else says.... I agree with what she says (to a point) I agree that David and others are great coaches... All I ever really said that was negative was that in her passion, she has said things that could (and have) been taken wrong by several great skydivers. (even if they are not flying the new "fad" body position). It was never a slam on coaches..or her.... Just an observation of her "passion" being read wrong....By her saying things in ways that make it seem like those who came before us don't know anything. Again, Like I said I agree that the Mantis is the new hot shit, and that the tunnel is awesome, and that coaching is worth every penny you pay, and that David, Shannon ect are wonderful people (that I have known for about 8 years). Ect...... But like I said I am done with this..... Rant all ya want, but you will loose 50% of your targeted group by ranting like that.... Oh well....The one who want to learn will....the ones that don't won't. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I agree with you, and her. However most people stop paying attention as soon as you start to yell. It is not what she is preaching that I am against....It's how it is presented. She has on several occasions posted rants insulting several very good "old school" skydivers. Saying the way they skydive is wrong???? How can it be wrong? Some of them invented the damn sport. It may not be "cool" or the latest "fad". But I remember when the "boxman" was hot shit. And there were people like her back then as well. It's not that I don't agree with her, its just as soon as she starts to yell she will loose half of the people that she is trying to reach. And in the process she pisses a lot of people off. I fly the "Mantis"....I use the hell out of the tunnel. I teach the tunnel.... But I am very thankful of all the people who came before me. I am glad that they jumped the rounds, Jalbert Parafoils, peredactals (sp?) ect...so I didn't have to. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

4 waynut....your getting a little, well nuts about this. Yes a coach is a good idea...whenever you train, in whatever you are training in. But not everyone wants one. Several reasons...one might be cost. I believe you had a team fall apart over cost this past year right? And the end result is that the will improve just by getting the Airtime. But I would recomend that the group has a coach as well. Brian Johnson, David, Shannon, Kurt Gaebel, Bob Healey, Steve Johnson, Niklas Gummeson, Chromy, Griz, Scott Franklin, myself any of the folks from Majic, XL,..ect.. There are WAY to many coaches in central FL for there to be a problem getting one. Darkwing...PM me if you want me to try work on it for you. I live in FL, and my team (Frost) did a lot of tunnel, I am coaching an Intermediate team this year, and I coach the Airforce teams in the tunnel. Plus I know all of the coaches in this area. I would be happy to help ya, either myself(if its on a weekend or at night), of hook you up with another coach. Let me know when,how much you might want to spend,#of people,skill level,what you want to work on,ect. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Speaking from FedEx (11 years)....I bet that you are alot happier that we didn't leave it on your doorstep, and someone stole it. People get mad at us a lot. But we have had things get stolen from peoples doorsteps. That is one reason we don't release anything of value with out a signature. In the future if you wish, you can have the shipper sign the release signature (Block 8 of the Air Way Bill), and FedEx, or UPS can leave it with out a signature. I would not do it, but you can. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Only go to the service if you WANT to be in the service. Any other reason and the "powers that be" will hate you for it. My command hated the fact I tried to go to the GK's....and they went out of their way to make life bad for me. The GK's didn't like that I enlisted to try and become a GK. For some it worked....for others not. But anyway I did 3 years, had a good time looking back, and left with a 40% disability. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I posted this somewhere else, but it applies here: Did some looking: Of the canopy deaths this year (which I hope is done) 1. 135 jumps, .9 wingload. Panic turn to avoid an object 2. 270 jumps, 1.67 wingload. Hook. 3. 200 jumps, 1.7 wingload. Hook 4. 275 jumps, 1.63 WL. Hook 5. 201 jumps, ???? WL. Panic turn to avoid object 6. 1500 jumps, ??? WL. Hook into water. 7. 500 jumps, ???? WL. No info if hook or panic 8. 170 jumps, 1.29 WL. Hook 9. 160 jumps, 1.31 WL. Hook I didn't include the canopy collapse stuff. Notice anything? Only one jumper with over 600 jumps. 7 under 300 2 panic turns with one unknown. I see a very clear low jump # and high wingload issue. This is why I am Canopy NAZI #3!!!!! All info was taken off of USPA/Barrys pages (which he does not run anymore, but I am not sure who is now.) So, You are right in the 300 jumps, 1.5 wingload area.... I bet every single one of these people thought that they could also handle the canopy that they had. They are also all dead. I bet there are hundreds of others out there that CAN handle this situation. But they ALL thought they could. The differance is that some didn't. I think it is clear that a high wingload with low experiance is a large factor in a lot of deaths/accidents. When you think about it, 300 jumps is not a lot. If you were a golfer and only hit 300 balls, you would not be very good. Even with good coaching you would not be very good. If the NBA pro's only shot at the hoop 300 times they would be looking for other work. 300 jumps is only 300 times landing a canopy...thats not a lot. And the cost of screwing up is very high. At 300 jumps you have around 5 hrs of freefall....Imagine any other sport that you want, and do it for only 5 hrs, 300 times. You will not be very good. The differance is in the frame of referance. You have 300 jumps, which is a lot more than most of the world, and a fair number of jumps for a lot of DZ's. But in reality its not a lot, it just is in skydiving. I like what Brian Germain says.... You jump # and your wingload should correspond. 100 jumps 1.1 wingload 200 jumps 1.2 300 1.3 400 1.4 500 1.5 I think it is a little high at the 500 jump and up mark, but it is a good guide. Yes it can be done faster, but at what cost? How much are you willing to risk your life? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ray I have to dissagree on this one. For anyone who exits an aircraft, student, experianced whoever.... They have the responsability to deploy a parachute. The instructor is a back up...not to be relyed on... Exactly like a CYPRES. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I agree with Bill... If your breakoff is 100 feet off, that is not the end of the world. If your CYPRES fires, your around 1,000 feet off from your decision Altitude, and 1,300 feet from your deployment Altitude for a "D" license. 100 feet is not much...less than a second, and I doubt that all alti's are that accurate anyway. 1,000 or 1,300 feet IS a much bigger differance. And the cost of being one second late on breakoff, or 4.5 seconds from impact is quite large. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

My buddy (more like brother I have known him so long) Doug and I are getting into an argument at the DZ. (We are best friends, but we get into serious arguments over debates we have). So the whole DZ likes to listen when he and I go at each other so we have a crowd around us. He gets so mad at me ('cause he's wrong and looking like a fool) He says to try and shut me up "Oh yeah, I've had sex on your Canopy!" The whole DZ gasps.....People are like "oh damn that was cold". I had dated one of his girlfriends, So I said " Oh yeah, I had sex on your girlfriend" You could hear a pin drop it was so quiet. Doug and I just started laughing so hard we were out of breath. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have seen,and heard of people falling right by 1,000 feet. Some of them have said "I knew my CYPRES would save me." But the biggest issue I have is how people are more likley to engauge in more dangerous activities because they "Rely" on the CYPRES to prevent them from dying. I hear it a lot. "Oh, its OK I have a CYPRES" A CYPRES and a reserve are very different.... One is a passive aid, the other requires action (either by you or a cool electric box). I would not jump with out a reserve. I will jump with out a CYPRES. CYPRES is a small box that can keep you alive if you are knocked out. Too many people treat it like a security blanket that will protect them if they fuck up, and do something stupid. That is what I mean by "rely" Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If a jumper is not going to listen...even with repeated attempts to educate, and inform... Kick him of the DZ....I don't like to see people bounce, and if someone refuses to change a dangerous pattern....If I had the power he would not jump at all,or at least at a place I could stop him. Period. If he chooses to jump at another DZ, and they let him, thats fine. But If I think he is a crater waiting to happen, I will do what I can to prevent it. If you don't like it sorry, hate it for ya. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats really an issue for them, the S&TA, and the DZO/DZM. And watch your fellow jumpers....did anyone tell them that it was a bad idea? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Bill , your getting a little to detailed here... I said several times that when the jumper is in the process of deploying that it is not the issue....They are saving their own lives, that the box beat them to it. My issue is with the people who do nothing. And yes to the other post, if you are always having mals under your new canopy you should look at you body position/packing....But mals do not always equal death. Just loosing track of altitude and being low enough to have your little black box save you can be equal to death. And if you pull low and the unit fires....Its not a misfire. You are low, you are still moving fast. It fires because it cannot tell the difference between a low pull/long snivel and someone not planning on pulling.... Again I said if you are in the process of saving your life, and happen to be low and it fires...not a big deal...But if you just freeze and do nothing...You are in the wrong sport. Then these people say to themselves..."Hey dummy, I pulled low. Don't do that". I am talking about the ones that would have been craters. But anyway, I can see that people like to rely on them. I am not going to argue it. It seems strange to me that there was a long debate on audible alti's, and that most didn't like them because you can get to used to them, but a CYPRES seems to be fine... I just don't get it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

?!?!?!?!? Nothing more than a CYPRES fire??!?!?!? A CYPRES fire is someone, for some reason falling at greater than 86 mph at 750 feet AGL. In other words about 4.5 seconds from impact! In more other words someone who should be dead! Yep...if its a medical problem that made it so you could not save your own life you should not be jumping. It is putting too much on the line. Trusting a little black box way too much. If this problem is fixed, continue to jump...If not ground yourself. You expect a collision???? I wouldn't go then. This is what they are made for....well they are made for all kinds of stupid things also. But this one is the one reason I jump one. If I ever thought I could not handle saving my own ass, I would quit jumping. Again these are REALLY stupid reasons to get saved. If this happened to me, I'd quit. I would fiqure I was already dead. But the "CYPRES fire is nothing more than a CYPRES fire" really kills me....You are dead, except for the wonders of electrons in black boxes. It is this attitude that lets people take less responsability for their own actions. Read slowly: If your CYPRES fires, and you did not pull some type of device to stop you from smacking into terra firma....you should be DEAD! Its not like a reserve, where you took action to save your life...It is a passive backup to either: A. An accident where you are knocked out. B. Some LARGE amount of stupidity, neglect, carelesness or incompetance. If it was A I could see jumping again...B I am not sure. Skydiving is not for everyone, no matter how much they may love it. If they can not handle the tasks that it requires, they should not be jumping. Period. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you cut away and not pull your reserve..... You also died. Problem is I have yet to see ANYONE beat an RSL. So you never know what someone would do. If you cut away, did not pull the silver handle didn't have an RSL, and got saved by your cypres...same as we have been talking. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Did some looking: Of the canopy deaths this year (which I hope is done) 1. 135 jumps, .9 wingload. Panic turn to avoid an object 2. 270 jumps, 1.67 wingload. Hook. 3. 200 jumps, 1.7 wingload. Hook 4. 275 jumps, 1.63 WL. Hook 5. 201 jumps, ???? WL. Panic turn to avoid object 6. 1500 jumps, ??? WL. Hook into water. 7. 500 jumps, ???? WL. No info if hook or panic 8. 170 jumps, 1.29 WL. Hook 9. 160 jumps, 1.31 WL. Hook I didn't include the canopy collapse stuff. Notice anything? Only one jumper with over 600 jumps. 7 under 300 2 panic turns with one unknown. I see a very clear low jump # and high wingload issue. This is why I am Canopy NAZI #3!!!!! Ron All info was taken off of USPA/Barrys pages (which he does not run anymore, but I am not sure who is now.) "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Get it they are great Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I would like to add that I don't see a "student" save as big of a deal as an "up jumper". Still a big deal, but not as much. We plan on students to screw up....They make life interesting....While it is a very bad thing, I think is MUCH worse for an "Up Jumper" to have a fire. For the sake of argument lets say having a license, and getting saved. I also don't count low reserve or main pulls/two outs....While they are bad, the jumpers was making an effort to save themselves, and in most cases would have done it, but the box did it at the same time. I am talking about the didn't stop the skydive folks...The jumper under the spinning main is a good example. She is lucky to be alive. And again...I never said that they SHOULD quit....just really think about it since they should have been dead. I would have some problems if I owned the DZ letting them jump there again. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Point taken... I did say most not all...., although I think everyone with over 900 said they would most likley quit. But I have seen a few people refuse to jump with out one. Hell, I PREFER to jump with one, but I will jump with out it. Some will not. And I have seen at least one person have 2 fires, and not think it was bad....The reason they gave me was..."I bought the thing in case that did happen". That bothered me. She relyed on it. I have seen 3 others have fires and say close to the same thing....All of these were just simple "Lost track of altitude issues" Not even a bad response to a Mal, just forgot to pull....These people should look into Golf, or maybe bowling. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No Dave youre right it takes a lot more input to get the same result... I would guess that it is due to the slower speeds you are "Falling" the air is very good, and you can fly in the same body position that you normaly use, but you weigh around 20 pounds less due to not having a rig. One good thing is that it makes you put that same input in freefall, and man you move. I am coaching a team in the tunnel tonight, and flying 30 min myself with another group. A very good tool. Ron PS If you are comming down to the tunnel PM me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334