Albatross

Quade you know that I agree with you. Just as you hope that better people will jump with you you should help others as well. I like jumping with less experienced people. I think that they provide more to the experienced people tha nthey get back often. It if fun to jump with your friends. All I am trying to say is that if the intent is to get better and learn to fly. It is difficult with a bunch of low timers. ONe time be the experienced person and the next be the newbie. Keep it mixed. Don't be a jump snob and shun other people but also don't try to jump with b=newbie friends and expect to learn as quickly. Chris

W whole group of us got into this discussion at dinner the other night. After a day of jumping with a World class coach, we were saying that it is OK to be snobby with who you jump with. If you try to jump with all novices you will not be sure what you are doing. Who is moving and in what direction? Try to find at least one experienced person to jump with. They can be the reference point to work off. Even Airspeed, Majik, and the Knights have the saying that the Inside center is always right. That is sayign that you need one reference point to work off or no one will ever know who is doing what. Bottom line jump wiht people who are as good as you can find to jump with you even if it means paying them. you will be a much better skydiver for it is a much shorter time. Chris

O.K. I started this "argument" so i will try to clear up the intent. I am not saying that everyone should fly in exactly the same position. I am not saying that the people who developed RW and Big way techniques were doing it wrong. I am not saying that you can't be a good or great skydiver without doing the tunnel camps and all that. What I am saying is that the top 4-way, and 8-way competitors all have some characteristics that are common. They fly with their heads up and their hands in, in a nutural position. The exact position will verry due to body dynamics and other personal factors. You do not see Airspeed, the Knights, or Majik flying wiht their arms high and their heads low. I am a big proponant of getting coaching and instruction in the basics and think that these guys and gals have spent 1000's of hours in the air and in the tunnel practicing and learning. They found this stuff independantly from trial and error and what ends up working best. Now if there are not some fundimental things that make for good body flight why have 100s of people from all over the world or country all come to similar basic positions for body flight if it is not the most efficient one currently known? Teams differ on how to fly a block or how to take grips or what is the best way to build a random, but they all seem to have common aspects in the way they fly their bodies that we would all do well to try and learn from. I agree with weid14 about Kate. She is a great skydiver and person I am fortunate to know personally. She was an awsome flier but her account tells you how much there is to learn for someone as good as she was. Chris

I have seen good sucess with Bev, Michigan, Tony and a few others. The most important thing seem to be if you have someone who can make measurements that are in line with the manufacturers style. I got some recomendations for how to measure my Tony and it worked well. Somepeople have gotten bad measurements and they don't fit. Some was true for Bev. One teammate loved hers the other had it modified like 5 times and it never fit right. Remember that this is a custom made item that is made without the template. Chris

Which tunnel camp? And yes they are worth every cent even if they cost twice as much. Chris

B refers to the Yoke size and the 15 refers to the length of the main lift web. Check Sun Path rigging's web site for a better description and the numbers. B is a small size usually for small women. Chris

I thin that the basic answer is going to lie in what you want to do. If you are doing Load Organized jumps or big ways, booties might not be necessary or wanted. Like Weird14 said they are like getting turbo on my legs. You get much more power in your movements. However, they are not necessary. If you plan on getting them later avoid the relearing and get them now. While booties will slow you down usually a proper fitting suit will speed you up and the booties will just serve to give you more range. I think that they are a good idea and are a necessity if you plan to do competitive 4-way now. Chris

I do not know all the runnel rats personally and have not seen them all fly. However, I think that as with all things focus is important. I think that all the Tunnel rats do a good job of getting people stable and through the basics. I know that some of them like Eliana have soo much timea nd have focused on RW and are AMAZING in the tunnel even before she was on Airspeed. I am not classifying anyone who I have not worked with in any catigory. I can only speak of those I ahve flown with and will not speak ill of any of them. That being said. I have worked with some fo teh Airspeed members nd found them to be of various levels of help in the tunnel based on personality, teaching style and connection with me. Of the 4-5 I flew with I would have to say that Eliana was by far the best. SHe focused most on the basics and had great intunnel communication. I have also worked with David and Shannon in the air and soon in the tunnel. Their ability to communicate information and focus on the fundimentals in my opinion makes them Top Notch. I guess that ultimately my definition would include, great skills, good preparation, excellent communication, and attention to the fundimentals and the students needs. I know that some of the "other" coaches have these atributes but I do not know them and con not recomend someone I do not know. Chris

I have never tried it with a skydiving helmet but when you SCUBA dive the best anti-fog agents are spit and slightly soapy water. You let the think layer of soap cover the lens and it prevents the water from fogging. I have never tried it but it might work for this as well Chris

While I do think that the "tunnel Rats" do a good job and some of them are top quality coaches in their own right, I am sticking by my guns. The average coach is that because his eyes are not as sharp and coaching not as good. I know that there are some people who have an amazing ability to fly and know a ton about body flight but can not teach. However, Shannon, David and the other top coaches are simply put better at their job than most everyone else. I think that anyone would be better off spending 50% of the time in the tunnel with good coaching at the begining, than 200% of the time with friends. These are the basics that we are talking about. Being a teacher of many things (science, math, martial arts) I believe that the right training and prespective in the begining saves 100 time the time over the long hall. It means that you don't have to compensate for errors with more errors only to be frustrated when you hit a wall. You don't have to unlearn the bad habbits, you don't have to look for the solutions or insights that have already been found. A good coach like a good teacher can make you understand in a fraction of the time. To use your analogy of Golf, if you get a good coach he will give you all the fundimentals to have a great swing. It might take longer to get a small improvement but you will soon get much better and continue to improve and be able to make corrections and progress. An adiquate coach will give you a small fix for a symptom and will usually get a small but rapid improvement only to see it degrade and become the same old thing or even worse later. Train Hard Train right Chris

I am good with that. I agree with you that it is hard for "old school" jumpers to be told that the way they fly is wrong. I think that if we all step back and take our emotions out of it these positions are all just an evolution. I know that I can get preachy about getting to the new stuff, but like you I truely believe in what David, Ian, Shannon.... are teaching as the evolution of the boxman and Mantis. I think that the tunnel has take body flight eons into the future. The amount of knowledge we amassed in the 60s and 70s took doubled in the 80 and quadrupiled in the 90s and takes even less time now. With the advent of the tunnel that learning curve went ballistic, like introducing ZP for canopies. The top guys have flown as much time in the tunnel as they have in their lives in the air (in like 10% of the time). No the old ways are not right or wrong, but new discoveries or even just structuring all theinformation that these pioneers had is helping young skydivers lean faster. I think the quote "If I have seen further it is because I have stood on the backs of giants." Fits nicely here. How about we will (4waynut and I) will yell a little less if you see our passion not for arogance but for a true desire for everyone to become the best they can be Chris

I know that 4waynut is passionate but she is doing it from a position of caring. Those of us who have come to the place of body flight are passionate about it. I agree that any air time will make you a better flier. You will move faster if you spend time practicing and you might get the most efficient movements. HOWEVER, the PD Blue, Majik, and Airspeed guys have all come to realize that the tunnel is the perfect place to practice the body flight skills and some blocks and moves. They have spent 100s of housr in the tunnel learning the best ways to teach, the test way to move, and the most efficient use of time. I think that 4waynut is just trying to convince people who are spending alot of $$$ and have limited access to the tunnel to not reinvent the wheel but to take the experience and build on it and not make all the mistakes that have been done before. She is trying to make the most out of their tunnel time and $$$. About David she is just a believer in him and loves his style. We all have our favorite coaches and styles. You can't knock her for that (all the women love David and some guys). Chris

Current cost is about $900 for an hour in a camp and 1600 for 2 hours. We just posted a tunnel camp in the Relative work forum that is much cheeper Chris

We are having a tunnel camp the 25th and 26th of January. We have two of the best coaches in the world in David Van Greunigan and Shannon Pelcher. The ratio of students to campers will be very low 3:1 the cost is cheep $10/min and $100 /day for coaching. This is going to be one of the best deals you will ever find for a 1st Class tunnel camp. Everyone is welcome. Call fast time is short. Chris

It is goingto be a great thing to behold. All the 4-way crew from SoCal will be there. I also ahve a good friend coming in from Seattle, some people from Colorado. All the great coaching that you can stand, great people and I am sure I heck of a good time. Chris

Some tunnel is better than no tunnel, but doing it uncoached almost defetes the purpose of goin unless you are working with piece partners and have already done a lot of personel flying. The best use iof the tunnel is to work on mechanics and get quality reps at a particular move or skill. If you go in with your friends unless one of them has a bunch of tunnel time and the skills to see and correct body position errors, you will just be pacticing what you already know, not improving it. Hire a coach! If you can't hire a coach, fly less and hire a coach. Chris

If the knee is the problem try practicing your arch in the mirror at home. Have a good friend look at you from all angles and tell you which part of your body is off line. Or you can jsut come visit the tunnel with us. Chris

That is a greeat point. AFF is not about flying for most people. It is about saving your life and learning to not hit the ground either in freefall or under canopy. I agree with the idea that the tunnel will help physical trouble students and that it will not help everyone. I think that most people would get the most benefit from the tunnel after their frist release dive when flying finally comes into play. Chris

The problem ios not skydiving it is the law.In California it is not legal for a parent to sing away the rights of a minor. That means that if you were to get hurt that while your parents could not sue EVERYONE, you could the day that you turned 18. Sorry. If you are serious about jumping GO to the tunnel and learn. A tunnel will be coming to SOCal soon and you can be a tunnel rat. You will be an awsome flier but will have to wait until youre 19th birthday to take the big step. Good Luck Chris

I have been thinking about this problem ever since I began jumping. First for myself and then for teammates and now for potential students. The two points made above are keys. However, you have other issues to deal with at the same time. WHile you are a student your job is to be stable and lear to control your bodya dn recover from instability not to learn to adapt to other people (that will come later). Your istructors should find the correct equipment to make sure that you are near your natural range. That means a tight suit for you and a big one for them. If they are trying to make you fall with them get new instructors. That being said, you will need to change your body position and become able to fall faster when you jump with others. First of all getting a proper suit will make all the difference. Next you may have to wear weights, period. Also practice your arch on the ground. Lie down on your stomach, keep your hips on the ground and sit up on your elbows. That is about as much of an arch as you can really fly in. In the air you must relax into that position not push into it. Last try to get to the tunnel and experiment with body positions that will help you fall faster and have greater range. Chris

The weight issue is a good one but the biggest thing is body position and getting the weight dialed in. I have done 4-way with women yuor size and the can keep up just fine. The notion of a weight belt might help to get your head and chest. However I would also look at you pody position. Where is your arch coming from your waist or chest. Are your hands by your ears or under your chin. Are your arms out to the side or under yuor shoulder? If you get the correct body position you will fall faster and need less weight. Coome to the tunnel and see if that helps. Chris

Yes oh wise 4-way master show me the way of the Keys. Teach me the rhythm and how to deflect air with my body. I might be a bit slow on the up take but I do learn, can be taught and have lots of CREDIT.

If you have the time and the $$$: NSL tunnel camps. Call the coaches and schedual one on one time in the tunnel. If you have friends coming try 2 0n 2s in the air if not possibly an Airspeed skills camp or call one of the DZs in the area and ask if they know people who want 2 on 2 training. Bottom line 1st learn to fly your body, then learn to do 4-way. If you can't fly your body doing expensive coaching is a waste of time and cash. Chris

As a 4-way competitor, I would rather do back to backs all day. That being said. I had a blast doing 10 way. It was some of the most fun that I have ever had with 9 people I had never met before. I will do it again but I can't see making it my event. Props to STL for following their passion and kicking some serious ass. You guys/gals worked hard and blew away the competition. You deserved that medal and should wear it proudly. Chris

If you are serious about improving your skills,get a coach, some 2 0n 2s and some tunnel time. Don't depend on the "old guys" At the DZ to be doing it right. SOme may be just faking it and others doing it the "old" way. Leaning it right is the expensive way to save a lot of money in the end. Chris