CDRINF

Ideally all functions in theater would be performed by soldiers, but we are living with the reality of the "peace-dividend" everyone wanted in the 90's. We went from a 785,000 man Army to 485,000 (and were headed toward more cuts if 9-11 had not happened) while increasing the number of deployments and world wide commitments. The solution to losing the soldiers needed to perform a number of critical functions was to hire contractors. In addition to Blackwater, there is a huge array of logistical duties from food service, to laundry, to truck transport performed by Kellog Brown and Root. If you want to get rid of the contractors in theater, you have to face the reality of either radically reducing our world wide commitments, or having a much larger Army. This is actually not without precedent. When the Army rapidly downsized after the Civil War it had to hire contractors to run wagon trains to garrisons on the frontier because it had to keep what few troops it did have for fighting Indians. Private companies like Wells Fargo armed their employees to protect frontier deliveries because the Army did not have the troops available to provide security. CDR

One reason no one has mentioned is that we need a night jump requirement and standards somewhere in the licensing and training structure if for no other reason than skydivers, being skydivers, will want to try one. Some crazy SOB will want to jump at night (and I am one of those) and we need a pool of trained people in the community who have that experience to train and advise others. If we look at whats killing people in the sport, in many cases it's the activities for which there is (or did not used to be) any formal training requirement. What would we do if night jumps started killing people? Ban jumping after dark, or train the jumper population to do them right? I had some good, experienced skydivers teach me about night jumps, and I could be confident they were trained and tested to the same standard I was trying to achieve. To remove the requirement would make this more of a hit or miss thing. CDR

I think he just wants to know if he gets beer and a free T-shirt. CDR

Chris, I see info about big tents and RV's, but is there an area to pitch a personal tent? Any fee to camp? Thanks! Blue Skies! CDR

Gary, I agree with most of your observations. I just think the origins may go deeper. As you state, the growth in the 90's was an "anomaly." I have always felt that it had its roots with Baby Boomer Yuppies who made a lot of money in the '80's, and were now looking for new places to spend it. I recall seeing some scuba industry literature in the late 80's that identified this market which had a large amount of disposable income and suggested ways of going after it. A lot of the marketing revolved around giving these folks a "cool" experience with which to impress friends and co-workers. This demographic brought a lot of cash into the sport. Instead of slowly working their way up the ladder via static line instruction and hanging out at the DZ to learn, these folks had the ability to buy their way into the sport quickly through Tandem, AFF, paid coaches, and paying top dollar for custom made, color coordinated gear. They didn't need to learn to pack since they could afford packers. DZ's and gear manufacturers went out of their way to meet this new demand. By the mid-90's I noticed a big shift in the type of person you saw skydiving. Instead of primarily military, former military, and college students, I was seeing a lot more doctors, lawyers, and other high end professions. Prices went up and the younger kids got squeezed out. Given that the average time in the sport is about 5 years (I am told), I think that a lot of what we are seeing is the Baby Boom Yuppie demographic getting out of the sport and turning to other interests. At the same time, I believe we have hurt our ability to replenish our own talent pool for the reasons you state about instructional ratings. I certainly see it in RW where almost every load I am on these days seems like a P.O.P.S. load. If you look at scuba, and motorcycling, similar things have happened. Worst thing that ever happened to the true bikers was when Malcom Forbes got a Harley. So the question is: will we adjust, as a sport, or keep chasing after the quick buck? CDR

We went through a lot of the same at Fort Campbell a few years back when our club closed. Very sad. One idea I had to try to maintain the club in a way, was to fold all of the club's resources and functions under the Screaming Eagles demo team. Then have the demo team hold "team development jumps" or what ever you want to call them to maintain a large "bench" of potential jumpers. At least it would have provided an avenue to let a larger number of young soldiers learn to jump, rather than just the select few on the team. Unfortunately I had PCS'd by they time the club actually closed, so I was unable to push this. If you think about it, it makes sense. "Back in the Day" the clubs did all the demo jumps, and that was a large reason why they were started in the 50's/60's. In the late 80's the Army split off most of the demo teams and had them become full time, command sponsored teams. The clubs became NAF/MWR activities run by civilians. Unfortunately, that put the clubs at risk. They could no longer be justified on the basis of providing demo teams, and were now subject to scrutiny of civilians only looking at profit and loss, as well as potential risk. It also made it easier for aviation commanders to refuse to provide support since it was seen as using Army assets for recreation as opposed to a mission. Loss of Army aircraft support was a huge nail driven into the coffin. CDR

QuoteSuppose you receive an illegal order directly from the President?Quote Then I am duty bound by my oath to disobey it. The Constitution and the law trump the President. Simple Example: Order: "You will not take prisoners. You will kill all enemy you capture." This is a violation of the UCMJ, U.S. and international law. I can be prosecuted for obeying this illegal order. Murkier Example: Order: "You will deploy as a member of your unit and take part in the invasion of a sovereign nation deemed to be a threat to our security, and overthrow its government." Hmmm.... Okay, I might not agree with this particular action, but it is within the power of the commander in chief as commander of the armed forces. (We can argue for days about if he needs an actual declaration of war to employ the Armed Forces against threats to U.S. security, so I won't go there). The order, however, has at least the tacit blessing of the legislative branch in that they vote on a resolution to approve of this action, and continue to provide funding for it. Therefore, it is a legal order and I am duty bound to obey. If I have a personal problem with it, I can resign my commission. CDR

"Enemy of the constitution" is a somewhat broad and subjective evaluation. As a soldier and officer, I don't get the option to act on subjective personal beliefs and feelings of morality, rightness and wrongness. In simple terms, I must obey all legal orders, and have a duty to disobey illegal orders. If I have a problem with the subjective morality of an order, I can resign my commission. What I cannot do is disobey an order (say, deploy to Iraq, which I imagine is where this is going) given by a legal authority just because I don't agree with it. Some would say that makes me a mindless robot following orders. I say that's exactly what you want me to be. If you want me to act on my conscience, then what happens when my conscience does not agree with yours? If I don't agree with what the government says I should do, do I then take matters into my own hands and force a change, using the 900 armed men I have under my command? There are countries where that happens. We call them military dictatorships. Bottom line, our country is built on respect for the law handed down by civilian authority. If the citizens think there is a problem with that authority, they need to take action at the ballot box. CDR

http://www.west-point.org/greimanj/west_point/songs/bloodontherisers.htm Ask and ye shall receive! An airborne school classic. CDR

Being one who works daily training young soldiers, one thing I constantly hammer is to dispell the romantic notion among young soldiers who have seen too many war movies that it is a good thing to be a grenade jumper. I am not familiar with this particular account, but it appears as written that everyone got out of the vehicle except the guy who decided to jump on the the grenade and wait for it to go off instead of hauling ass with everyone else. NEVER jump on a grenade! Leaders should not romanticize or encourage this behavior. You are accepting certain death to avoid possible death. You have 3 and 5 seconds to do something. Throw it back, get out of the hole, vehicle, or whatever, or if all else fails, lay prone an arms length away (most of the blast goes up). The one MOH citation for grenade jumping that I really thought showed some nuts was an SF NCO in Vietnam who caught a VC headed into the CP with a live grenade, wrestled him to the ground and bear hugged him so the blast was smothered between both of them. CDR

That's a little before my time, but I helped re-start the Polk club in 1998. The Rucker club had just closed and we got their gear. It lasted a little while with us jumping on Honor Field before shutting down again when a new airfield commander bitched about providing aircraft support. CDR

This was my home DZ off and on for 5 years (1 year in Korea, 5 months in Iraq). The facilities are first rate. If you are looking for turbines, Skydive Arizona, it ain't, but the old reliable Cessnas do the job well. Tom and Patty put their heart and soul into the place and the gang at the DZ was a true second family to me. It has a vibe and feeling I have not found at any DZ before or since. I miss those guys! If you want to skydive in the KC area, this is the place!

Relax. Your Rig does not know what time of day it is. CDR

For my two cents, having been 5 of the last 6 years: Why do I attend the convention? I don't really care about vendors or just one novelty airplane. I am just coming from the land of only Cessna DZs (midwest/KC area). True there are more turbines out there, but as I travel and visit various turbine DZs, I see folks going solo or only 2, 3, and 4 ways at most out of Otters and King Airs. Heck, I can do that out of a Cessna! For the last 2 WFFCs I did 50 jumps each year at the convention, 7 to 11 jumps per day, none smaller than a 9 way, all with world class load organizers and skydivers (oh, alright, not ALL of the skydivers were world class, but they were all pretty good). No way you can do that anywhere else! Only my job is preventing me from going this year (it's an Army thing). So for a combination of rapid turning planes, load organizers, and good skydivers, you can't beat it CDR

I jumped with him at Fort Campbell in the late '80's when I was just starting out. It's been a long time, but I recall hearing of the incident and reading the report in both "Parachutist" and "Skydiving." That would have been sometime between July '01 and Feb '02 since I remember I was at Benning at the time I read of it. I recall that a heart attack may have been involved, and if memory serves, that his gloves were found off his hands and wedged in the passengers harness, which was odd. If you can find back issues from that period, you should be able to find the report. CDR

Check it out. These were serious concepts in the 60's: http://www.astronautix.com/craftfam/rescue.htm I like the MOOSE system the best. CDR

Been doing the Army gig a few years and I am somewhat familiar with this situation, since my cousin is also stationed at Polk. The policy in question has to do with accountability and safety. It is coming from the highest levels of the chain of command there. Having been on both ends, as the Stuckee, and now as a confirmed member of "They" let me try to give you some perspective and explanation: First, the legality of the order. Beware of barracks lawyers. Your commanders know the UCMJ better than you do. "They" can do just about anything they want in the name of good order and discipline and in the name of the health and welfare of their troops. "They" have access to the real lawyers and trust me, "They" would probably not issue a policy like this that the JAG guys had not blessed. The chain of command's order trumps the admin procedure of the leave form, which is nothing more than a device for charging leave in full day increments. Second, the intent. In this case, the chain of command is trying to prevent what we all know happens because we were all young once and did it ourselves: Your leave technically starts at midnight, but we all know that many take off after last duty the evening prior. For that period until midnight, you are in a legal sense, absent without authority, unless your commander has a policy saying you can depart after last duty the day prior. Now we up the ante due to safety (stay with me here): You have been on duty for an extended period, you jump in your car after 1700 formation and try to drive all night to West Wherever. You fall asleep at the wheel around 2300 get in a wreck and end up in the hospital. Now you are not only absent without authority, but your injury is not in line of duty due to own misconduct (your absence) which means you now get to foot your own medical bills. The recall formation is the same principle in reverse: 1) prevent the known fudge factor of not really counting a guy as not signed in unless he fails to show at first formation the next morning, and 2) discourage guys from trying to drive all night and slide in at the last minute. Even if you wait until midnight to depart or return, the chain of command is trying to keep guys off the road late at night and from traveling on little sleep. Now, in your instance, you are flying, so it is a bit different. If you purchased your ticket before the chain of command announced the policy, perhaps you can get permission to go on leave a day early and return a day later. Submit the leave form with the new dates to cover yourself legally and attach a note as explanation. Despite what you may think, most commanders don't want to see their troops get screwed out of money by having to change a ticket. You may not be on firm ground however, if the policy got announced and you bought the ticket anyway based on the advice of a barracks lawyer who said "They" could not stop you from departing. Hope that helps. Don't push the envelope on this. Any attempt at mass disobedience will probably backfire. You also don't want to be the poster child for setting an example about what happens to AWOL/FTRs prior to a deployment. Have fun on leave and be careful down range. CDR

Location? CDR

I suggested this a while back, but nothing came of it, so I will suggest it again: In light of it being Memorial Day, and this being one of the worst weekends for skydiving/BASE fatalities in recent memory, I think it would be nice to have a permanent memorial page on this site. It is important that friends remember them and others can learn how they lived for years to come. CDR

I just recently returned from Iraq. Nothing over there is exactly as it seems at first glance. Do you think the video man was there just by chance? You think maybe he is hoping that the patrol over-reacts and kills a bunch of kids on the street? This clip shows perfectly how this war is less about force, and more about ideas and images. The insurgent's true target is the video audience, not the soldiers. The real US target should be the video man, not the kids. The video man is in a win/win situation unless you can grab him. Check it out: he pays the kids to throw the grenade and then sets up to film. If the patrol returns fire on the kids he edits the film to show US troops killing innocent children. If the patrol does not return fire, he has a video of young freedom fighters scaring off the big bad US soldiers. The video gets hung on an insurgent web site, and eventually picked up by western media and internet. It is intended to evoke the response from us as follows: 1) "maybe we should just kill a bunch of them and they will think twice" (reinforcing our image as brutal occupiers) or 2) "My god, even the kids hate us and our troops are defenseless against them, we should just leave." (breaking our will to continue the fight). CDR

Sorry to tell you guys that your options are limited. I was at Camp Hovey 2002-2003. There is one DZ in country near Seoul. It costs 120,000 Won to join the KPA and 100,000 Won per jump. I never went there since I was not wild about paying $80 per jump. There used to be a club at 2ID but it closed in 1997. I did go to the Thai Sky Festival which BJ Worth runs in March each year down in Thailand. It is a good deal and loads of fun. CDR

Might I ask why and why threads about this DZ keep getting locked? Is it because it is becoming repetitive or because it is bashing? In this case the DZ failed to provide an announced service. Is that not a valid topic for discussion? Plenty of DZs get bashed in these forums, and the dropzone reviews contain many negative comments. Some guy has it in for Skydive Miami right now in this forum. Skydive Kansas took a lot of heat here a while back for having wing loading restrictions not clearly advertised on their website. There is a long running thread about Skyride and their affiliated DZs. There are many other examples, particularly when DZs do not deliver what they advertise. As long as we are invoking the rules, the rule against advertising in the "Events" forum gets violated a lot. I am not questioning the mods authority to moderate the forums, because I saw what happened over in "wreck dot." It does seem, however, that the rules are not applied consistently. CDR

An advertised boogie that draws folks from a 4 state area is one thing. Sustained operations weekend after weekend is another. Time will tell. CDR

We flew 25 Porter loads today and ate a whole mess of BBQ! Quite a good day! CDR

Labor Day weekend. Fort Dodge, Iowa. A true "old school" boogie. Great jumps, great friends, and much mayhem abound. CDR