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Ya, so what? John asked for data - is it not reliable enough for you? I posted the other articles to show you how they'll even spin success into a bad thing if you're a Trump supporter. I just don't understand why any of this matters. Who cares if Trump supporters are less educated. Who cares if they make more money than you? Both camps tend to have a median income that's above the national average, and both camps have demonstrated that they can lead a productive life and make wise decisions for themselves - that's all that really matters. Of course there will always be unsuccessful morons that can't go anywhere in life, but they have the right to vote as well - and there plenty of these types on both sides. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Do you have data to back that up? Take your pick and enjoy the spin - Apparently they even found a way to turn the success of Trump supporters into a bad thing: The spin is entirely yours. You wrote of "educated Clinton supporters", not all Clinton supporters, and "uneducated Trump supporters", not all Trump supporters. The data you provided do not break down voters by educational level so cannot support your position. Also, the Dem data include many minorities whereas the Trump data are almost exclusively from whites. It is beyond denial that whites get the advantage of far better schools than minorities in the USA, and that minorities are, for the most part, economically disadvantaged for that and for historical reasons. Oh, now you want to start talking about the uneducated democrats and point out all the subtle differences - now all of a sudden things don't seem so black and white. . . besides, we weren't talking about whites with a better education. This whole thing was about how uneducated Trump supporters are. You just can't stomach the fact that they might be more successful than you. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Do you have data to back that up? Take your pick and enjoy the spin - Apparently they even found a way to turn the success of Trump supporters into a bad thing: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/05/05/donald-trump-average-voter-income-72000-middle-class/83972800/ http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-working-class-support/ http://election.princeton.edu/2016/05/07/among-republican-voters-trump-supporters-have-the-lowest-income/ http://time.com/money/4318531/trump-middle-class-voters/ Anecdote data. Oh yeah, but I didn't see you call out Jerry for his anecdotal bullshit - at least I was trying to illustrate a legitimate point. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Lol right Ok, you got me - he's still raising his youngest daughter so I suppose she doesn't qualify as "sucessful" just yet. But we weren't talking about my best republican friend vs my average liberal friends - we were talking about uneducated Trump supporters vs educated liberals. The fact is that those uneducated Trump supporters are still better off financially that educated Hillary supporters - I was simply trying to illustrate why that may be and why this type of "uneducated conservative vs educated liberal" rhetoric doesn't really mean anything. I would say that I also have responsible liberal friends that are extremely successful, but they tend to be uneducated self-employed college drop-outs working in television, graphic design, Hollywood, IT or network security. So again, we see that a high IQ and book smarts aren't necessary to equip you with the ability to overcome life's challenges and make wise decisions. ...but this wasn't about uneducated liberals, so I didn't see a reason to bring them up. The important fact to remember however is that no matter how you slice and dice it, "uneducated" Trump supporters still make more money than educated liberal voters. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Exactly - and the spin that you're ignoring is JB's comment on how trump supporters are a bunch of morons that hate black people and want to make this a "whites only" country. The fact is that the people saying those things are just admittedly scared shitless, so they're trying to influence public opinion with a bunch of anecdotal bullshit that doesn't mean anything. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Ya, most americans are living on money pulled out of their asses, and when the next bubble bursts it will be unlike anything we've ever seen - it won't matter who the president is - so frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. . . Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Is that true, specifically, or have you substituted 'Trump supporter' for 'republican'? In my post, I specifically made the distinction between the more successful educated republican voters and trump supporters. Those that voted for Kasich had a median income of about 90k, while trump supporters had a median income of about 72k which is about 20k higher than the average and about 12k more than Clinton/Sanders supporters. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

...but the fact remains that uneducated Trump supporters are still financially more successful than educated Clinton supporters - so apparently a high IQ is no substitute for a life experience that equips one to make wise decisions and overcome life's challenges. I had a good conservative friend upstate. Our conversations primarily revolved around baseball, God and hunting. I tried to talk with him about the science behind black holes and the cosmos, but he'd always interrupt me and say - "Corey, I don't know what you're talking about. You could tell me the moon was made of cheese and I'd believe you." The thing was, was that he was one of the most responsible people I've ever met. He didn't live recklessly. He didn't take unnecessary risks. His was fiscally responsible and financially secure. He raised 4 successful children and retired at the age of 50 with plenty of investments along with some modest rental properties - he made good decisions, yet was dumber than a box of rox. Contrast that with practically all of my educated liberal friends who aren't even nearly as successful - they can barely handle one kid without feeding him amphetamines because "he has trouble listening." While others still haven't found a good job in their field in the last 10 years and are still living in their parents basements praying that Bernie's secular humanity will save them from the harsh realities of the world. . . Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Ok, but this article is referring to education. JB was talking about intellect - there is a difference. A highly educated person with a "low intellect" most likely doesn't have the capacity to do much with that education. This is probably one of the reasons why we still hear a lot of educated liberals talking about gun control policies that have already been proven ineffective. They're unable to even recognize or admit when their "solutions" don't work. They don't have the intellectual capability to accurately assess the situation and propose realistic solutions - which is why they keep trying to implement the same failed policies, repeatedly - over and over. However, an uneducated person with a higher intellect can at least take advantage of that intellect and make their life more manageable - which is why Trump supporters tend to be more successful than democrats overall - at least financially. Now while it is true that the most educated and successful republicans voted for candidates other than Trump, it does say a lot when even the "scum" of republican party voters tend to be more successful than those supporting a democrat. The financial success of these republican voters can be attributed to better decision making skills overall, whereas the relatively low median income of democrats can be attributed to poor decision making skills, thus leaving them prone to making that same mistakes repeatedly - over and over - just like those they support. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Lol, what complete utter shit. I'll admit that since the Trump candidacy, I've wondered if perhaps I've been a bit naive when it comes to the level of racism/bigotry in this country - but what you just wrote was desperate to the point of delusion. When's the last time you've seen the white power folks so excited about a presidential candidate ? Ok, so by your logic, since black power folks were excited about Obama's candidacy, the majority of Obama's black supporters must've had a low intellect - Obama must've hated white people and wanted to make this a "blacks only" country. . . (snigger) Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Lol, what complete utter shit. I'll admit that since the Trump candidacy, I've wondered if perhaps I've been a bit naive when it comes to the level of racism/bigotry in this country - but what you just wrote was desperate to the point of delusion. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Ah yes, Redneck Roulette - talk about a rush. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

That's why the liberals here are working overtime posting anti-trump threads. Billvon and Kallend's anti-trump posts account for almost 30% of all threads on the 1st page alone - and that's not even counting the threads that have been hijacked. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

or Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

But your responses are all just rationalizations saying it can't work. Nope. My responses are realistic plans based on decades of research that are already in place and have cut crime by 50% in the last 20 years. I believe we are capable of living in a society that is responsible enough to own dangerous tools. The last 20 years of continual downward trends in crime are a testament to that. We still have a long way to go, but thankfully we have plans already in place that are actually proven to work - so we don't really need your help, but thanks for your interest in american sociology. Yes, and I've outlined it for you at lest a half dozen times, but you are willfully blind to those simple facts. Your only plan is to shout as loud as you can - "get rid of your guns!" You might as well just shout "stop killing people!" Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

So what did Jesus say that made him a piece of shit? Edited to scoundrel, but not in time. But to answer your question, he claimed to be the son of god. Making him a lying scoundrel. It's not hard to argue that anyone who claims to be the Messiah is a POS. Jeeze, sounds like you have something in common with those that spat in His face and nailed Him to a cross for making such claims. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

And you consistently ignore the fact that we already know what works. The experience of every other first world country is that if you restrict guns you will have less gun violence See, this is what I mean. You keep regurgitating the same shit that I've already addressed. We talked about this a couple weeks ago and discussed how other countries never had the large amounts of guns like we did to begin with - it's not the same. You said that the only way to reduce gun violence, was to reduce guns. You never proposed a viable solution to get guns out of the hands of criminals - just that law abiding citizens voluntarily relinquish theirs - and you never addressed how many guns would need to be taken away in order to make a difference. Then you say that we could still have guns, and even sell and buy new ones as long as there were strict laws. So how the hell is that going to reduce guns enough to make a difference? Your argument is so muddled that I don't even know wtf you're talking about sometimes. You said that it would take decades upon decades to reduce gun violence through the reduction of firearms, but we've already cut the rate in half in less than 20 years - and some of that was even after the end of the assault rifle ban. We already know what works, and it's still working. If we just keep doing what we've been doing and implement more CDC recommendations to address our violent culture and impose gun restrictions on those guilty of domestic violence, I'm optimistic that the crime rate will continue to drop. The CDC noted that defensive uses of guns are about as common as offensive uses, so first, lets address our violent culture and reduce crime, and then maybe we can start talking about relinquishing our guns. Your focus is backwards. And they would still be higher even if we gave up our guns. You said it would take decades before we'd start seeing results if we started getting rid of our firearms. There are no quick fixes, but luckily we have plans in place that are already reducing the amount of crime in this country. ya, all that crime results in almost 7 homicides per 100k which is about twice as much as ours. We just commit suicide at a much higher rate - so clearly there are cultural issues that need to be addressed and it isn't the amount of guns. IMO, part of the suicide problem today is that we're raising a bunch insecure spoiled little brats that can't take a joke nor stick up for themselves, so we pump them full of anti-depressants and psychotropic drugs until they go nuts. God forbid if a 5 year-old doesn't listen to his parents - then they start shoving amphetamines does his throat for ADHD, wtf? Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

It's pointless talking to you about this issue. You keep regurgitating the same bullshit without addressing the responses I've already given you - and you still continue to point fingers at the people you don't like rather than focusing on real solutions that have already been proven to work. We already had a ban on assault weapons and the DOJ concluded that it was ineffective in reducing gun violence - let it go and focus on what actual works. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

So what did Jesus say that made him a piece of shit? Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Ignorance is bliss. . . Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

From Article: Lol, what a bunch of morons. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

There are indeed differences - but there are far more similarities than differences. Ya, maybe if you're just glancing at them from a superficial perspective. "Hey look, all these religions believe in some sort of god and think that stealing and murder are wrong - what a hoax! One can say that there a similarities between Taoism and Christianity, but if you take a close look you'll only see that it shares some vague undertones with the sermon on the mount. If you take an even closer look, you'll see that not only is the heart of their messages different, but contrary to each other. Same thing when comparing it to Egyptian religion as well. Nothing was "ripped off" from anything else; nothing was stolen. Ok, but that's what Kallend was saying - take it up with him. It's not a big deal at all. We share a lot in common with previous religions - which is why I found it odd you reacted so angrily to Kallend's claim that the Ten Commandments came from an earlier religion. As you say, it's just not a big deal. If you want to say that one's culture was reflected in biblical writings, fine - I don't have a problem with that - but to say that the commandments were ripped off of the book of the dead is just a trollish opinion backed up by nothing more than one's own truthiness. The first commandments express the idea of one true God while the book of the dead expresses ideas of polytheism. The few commandments that are similar are just common sense morality. Even atheists can figure out for themselves that stealing and murder are wrong. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

They may be losing. But so is your country. ...and using this issue just to point fingers at gun-loving christian conservatives during an election year isn't gonna help. Most of these people don't give a shit about thugs killing each other in the the south side of Chicago, but they have no problem using those stats to stick it to the gun-lovers that have nothing to do with it. These are the same dickheads that shout racism all the way to the bank, but have no problem imposing harsher gun restrictions on blacks because they think the color of their skin makes them more of a threat. Neither do they give a shit about those committing suicide - these gun control nutbags are the same people you'll find arguing for the right to die, but they sure as hell love throwing gun suicide numbers in our faces - bunch of hypocritical fucks. There you go ignoring the facts again. I know it's not impossible - we've already cut the gun homicide rate in half over the last 20 years or so. In fact, gun crime, suicides and accidental death have been on the decline for quite some time despite the influx of guns into our society. We just need to keep doing what we've been doing. We need to raise our kids right. We need to implement more of the CDC recommendations that address the violent inner city culture, and we need impose more gun restrictions on those guilty of domestic violence - and maybe even those with PPOs against them. Of course none of this will matter if we don't have a good economy with enough jobs - especially good paying manufacturing jobs or something equivalent for those living in the inner city. ...and I know you guys think I'm joking, but we need an inner city refugee program. If I was in a strong black family busting my ass to get us of the inner city slums of Detroit, I'd be pissed that all these foreigners are getting a free ride to the suburbs. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

What ridiculous beliefs! Judge if you will, but I was simply illustrating the differences. Last I checked you were a self proclaimed christian - a Catholic. Catholics believe that the priests summon Jesus down from heaven and turn bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ. If you don't believe that, then the catholic church says that you're anathema - that you're going to hell. Ya, none of those were ripped off from the book of the dead, which is what we were talking about - so what's your point? Hindus and Buddhists have their fair share of weird supernatural shit too - doesn't mean they ripped it from the book of the dead. There are similarities between various religions all over the world. There is a likeness between Taoism and the sermon on the mount, but that doesn't mean Christ was inspired by it. Likewise, there are similarities found in writings of Ecclesiastes and Proverbs that predates the Tao and budhism by 300-400+ years, but that doesn't mean that Laozi and Buddha crossed paths with Solomon in some kind of past life. I really don't see what the big deal is. I have had thoughts for inventions only to find out that it had already been patented. I can express an original thought on this forum and somebody will feel a connection because they felt the same thing, though we never met. People make similar music and write similar lyrics with zero influence from each other. Two completely different people on opposite ends of the world can write about their experience of Love and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. This whole Idea that a writing is plagiarized simply because it shares some similar ideas of a previous writing is ludicrous...Did Stephen King Plagiarize from the NT when he wrote Langoliers? Did the Wachowski Brothers Plagiarize from Scripture when they wrote the Matrix? There is this idea in America that we need to start living within our means. If someone writes a book telling people to live within their means, are we to automatically assume that it was ripped off because that's what Scripture has said all along? BTW, I still don't see what any of this has to do with the gun control arguments that your liberal cohorts are losing, thus ignoring it, and changing the subject. . .(snicker) Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Ohhh, scary. Sharia. Did they mention anything about Halacha, or is only Sharia scary? Some people shit their pants at the mere sight of the ten commandments. The ten commandments were ripped off from the Egyptian Book of the Dead ("I have done away sin for thee and not acted fraudulently or deceitfully. I have not belittled God. I have not inflicted pain or caused another to weep. I have not murdered or given such an order. I have not used false balances or scales. I have not purloined (held back) the offerings to the gods. I have not stolen. I have not uttered lies or curses.") and the code of Hammurabi. They are also mirrored in Islam. Did they rip the parts about worshiping 40+ different gods and casting spells - or the part about fighting off supernatural beasts that guard a series of gates to the afterlife, and all the other beliefs that have fuck-all to do with Judaism? ...but leave it to Kallend to point out the few similarities in how different civilizations thought that lying, stealing and killing were bad things - genius! I think it's cute how you waste time making truthy comments on these trivial posts that nobody gives a shit about, but ignore our discussion in this very thread about how the vast majority of violent crime has nothing to do with stolen guns - that they are not the problem - and that the increase in the amount of guns has less to do with Obama and more to do with things like concealed carry, hunting and the end of the 10 year assault rifle ban which the DOJ concluded was ineffective in reducing violent crime. Your focus is muddled. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour